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Artizan oo7…………..Your lecturer add so many changes to the actual text by implying things to them that are no where said, this is exactly what trinitarians do , they aren't content with the text like its written they have to try to give it their slanted understanding to make it fit their view points. My suggestion is to get a different Lecturer.
gene
I found this quote in Culpepper's book…
The Father and I are one. The Greek numeral here is neuter, not masculine; Jesus and the Father are one entity, not one person (Culpepper 1998, 182).
I love the way Trinitarians jump between the “Who” and “what” questions? Here they are one in “what”, not one in “who”.
Hey GB, it is good to know both sides of the argument, and then like I have make a choice… I just love how the conclusions jump from one thing to another, then back again…
Ok Arti,
Please go further don't make us wait disclose what you have kept secret so far your inhibitions that is what everybody in this forum are doing.
Do my friend hurry up.
Peace to you
AdamArtizan007…………I you hit the nail on the head there, Have you ever noticed how trinitarians never address where Jesus said the (WORDS) i am telling you are not (MINE) and where It says , God who in times past spoke to us (THROUGH) the prophets Has in these Latter Days spoken to Us (THROUGH) a son. So was the Prophets the (WORD) also, No they just spoke God's words to Us and thats the exact same thing Jesus did, Just as He said “the words i speak are not my words, but the words of Him who sent Me. Tell me the truth is that hard to understand, No it easy and yet the trinitarians can't seem to be able to get it.
AMAZING>peace to you and yours………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 13 2008,04:13) Artizan007…………I you hit the nail on the head there, Have you ever noticed how trinitarians never address where Jesus said the (WORDS) i am telling you are not (MINE) and where It says , God who in times past spoke to us (THROUGH) the prophets Has in these Latter Days spoken to Us (THROUGH) a son. So was the Prophets the (WORD) also, No they just spoke God's words to Us and thats the exact same thing Jesus did, Just as He said “the words i speak are not my words, but the words of Him who sent Me. Tell me the truth is that hard to understand, No it easy and yet the trinitarians can't seem to be able to get it.
AMAZING>peace to you and yours………………..gene
GBYes, but you refuse to look at all the times Yeshua claimed that the words he spoke were his words.
Can you make that claim that when you speak Gods word that they are your words?
If you say yes then you make God a liar because Gods words are not mans words.When is the last time that you or any man other than Yeshua has said…
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21
In keeping Yeshua's commandments I am keeping the commandments of God, why?
Because Yeshua is God!
WJ….. lets Just examin one Scripture and you give me the answer with out going to anything else, Just once ok…. What did Jesus mean when He very planily said in several places that the (WORDS) He Spoke were (NOT) HIS WORDS> Just stay with this first before we move on to something else, Let establish this truth first Please.
peace ………gene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 13 2008,04:30) Because Yeshua is God!
Let me get my facts straight and then I have a question.There is One God.
How can Jesus give back all power to “God” so that he will be “all in all”? Does this mean Jesus is giving power back to himself so he will still be all in all? If not, how can one part of the Godhead be “all in all” and the other part's not be? I thought they were all equal? If equal, then how can one part be “all in all” and not the other's? Confusing….
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 13 2008,04:40) WJ….. lets Just examin one Scripture and you give me the answer with out going to anything else, Just once ok…. What did Jesus mean when He very planily said in several places that the (WORDS) He Spoke were (NOT) HIS WORDS> Just stay with this first before we move on to something else, Let establish this truth first Please. peace ………gene
GBDo you establish your doctrine based on one scripture or do you establish it based on the whole?
You stop at the one scripture and I will move on to them all.
OK
WJ….. so what your saying i guess is Jesus was a Lier, right, because He said the words were not his but you say the words were his, and even went on to say that the Father not only told Him what to say but How to say it, and these things are in many places in scripture, so in your mind Jesus is a lier right.
So how can you be worshiping Him and don't believe in what He said?, interesting>.
WJ……. and no I don't stop at one scripture but i conceder all the scriptures and what i believe will fit all of them, but what you believe only fits parts of them and denies the rest, right.?
IMO……………gene
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 13 2008,04:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 13 2008,04:30) Because Yeshua is God!
Let me get my facts straight and then I have a question.There is One God.
How can Jesus give back all power to “God” so that he will be “all in all”? Does this mean Jesus is giving power back to himself so he will still be all in all? If not, how can one part of the Godhead be “all in all” and the other part's not be? I thought they were all equal? If equal, then how can one part be “all in all” and not the other's? Confusing….
MandyIn reality Yeshua is “all in all”.
Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. Col 3:11
And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,
which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. Eph 1:22, 23The passage you speak of is showing that Yeshua is in subordination to the Father as the mediator between the Father and man until the restoration of all things then God will be all in all.
At this time I believe Yeshua will give back to the Father the authority he holds as the only way to the Father as a mediator, for everything will be perfect, there will be no sin, so there will no longer need to be an offering for sin for we will be able to go straight to the Father. This verse in no way touches on the nature of who Yeshua is but merely explains position and rank within the Godhead. The Son is subservient to the Father and the Holy Spirit is subservient to the Son and these three are one in every way.
Isa 1:18 touches on this and I think explains it very well.
In expansion of point #2 I’ll write this:
As I previously mentioned in the last proof text I responded to Yeshua is a man, born of woman and born under the law (Gal. 4:4). As a man subject to the law he MUST assume the role of subservient to the Father, His God. Had He not been subservient to His Father in accordance with the Law He would not have been the sinless Lamb of God, the sacrifice was meaningless and the sin dilemma remains in effect for mankind. So the submission demonstrated in NT scripture is a function of the incarnation (when deity put on humanity), not a comment of His intrinsic nature relative to His Father’s. Is this a valid refutation of the doctrine? No. Trinitarians, as far I can tell, affirm the humanity of Christ. The line of authority elucidated in 1 Cor 15:27-28 is a natural consequence of His incarnation, when he “became flesh” (John 1:14) it was to be forever….
Just in closing, it’s interesting to compare verse 28 with a passage that Paul penned in his letter to the Colossians (Col. 3:11)
When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:28)
cf.
a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. (Colossians 3:11, cf. Eph. 1:23)
The grammar that was used of “God” in 1 Corinthians was also used of “Christ” in Colossians. I really like what C. H. Spurgeon wrote about this verse – “for Christ is not almost all, but all in all.” (source). Indeed Christ is all. Amen to that.
Blessings!
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 13 2008,05:20) WJ….. so what your saying i guess is Jesus was a Lier, right, because He said the words were not his but you say the words were his, and even went on to say that the Father not only told Him what to say but How to say it, and these things are in many places in scripture, so in your mind Jesus is a lier right. So how can you be worshiping Him and don't believe in what He said?, interesting>.
GBNo I believe Yeshua's own words when he says they are his!
Sorry. To bad you don't accept Yeshua's words as being his own. For when he speaks he speaks Gods word because he is God.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 13 2008,05:23) WJ……. and no I don't stop at one scripture but i conceder all the scriptures and what i believe will fit all of them, but what you believe only fits parts of them and denies the rest, right.? IMO……………gene
GBNot at all. The words of Yeshua's are the Fathers, and the Father's words are Yeshua's. The Father does not speak apart from the Son.
But I am quite sure he speaks apart from you or any other mere man.
WJ………OK, so when Jesus said they were not His word He really did not mean that right so you are saying Jesus is a lier right. Or can you even see that and please answer the direct question and stop dodging the issues, if you can. Just answer the question was Jesus lying when he said the words he was speaking were (NOT) His then was He lying or just kidding around and didn't really mean it. Because if he really meant it then you should accept it as fact then.
IMO………gene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 13 2008,05:32) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 13 2008,05:20) WJ….. so what your saying i guess is Jesus was a Lier, right, because He said the words were not his but you say the words were his, and even went on to say that the Father not only told Him what to say but How to say it, and these things are in many places in scripture, so in your mind Jesus is a lier right. So how can you be worshiping Him and don't believe in what He said?, interesting>.
GBNo I believe Yeshua's own words when he says they are his!
Sorry. To bad you don't accept Yeshua's words as being his own. For when he speaks he speaks Gods word because he is God.
Come on brother WJ,
Why do you add words such “because Jesus is God”?
Tell me one thing, had not God spoke through angels in O.T., did that make angels as God(s)?
Did His word not manifested(spoken) through many prophets of old, did that make all the prophets as God(s)?
I don't know why people can't understand simple things.
God spoke through His son(a son) in these last days, can't we understand that the words spoken by Jesus were none but they belong to God Himself but not Jesus' own. has he not clarified this many times during his earthly ministry?
How can we define monotheism if you interpret like this as “because Jesus is God” How many Gods can we make like this?
When we say there are more persons those are called God(s) are we not lieing when we say there is only One God?
My heart really pains when brothers in Christ fight in blindness.
Sorry my friends for my emotions.
Peace to all
AdamQuote (Gene Balthrop @ June 13 2008,05:50) WJ………OK, so when Jesus said they were not His word He really did not mean that right so you are saying Jesus is a lier right. Or can you even see that and please answer the direct question and stop dodging the issues, if you can. Just answer the question was Jesus lying when he said the words he was speaking were (NOT) His then was He lying or just kidding around and didn't really mean it. Because if he really meant it then you should accept it as fact then. IMO………gene
GBAnd so Jesus is a liar when he says his words were his and his commandments are his?
I have explained my view and you refuse to look at the whole truth of Gods word.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 13 2008,05:35) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 13 2008,05:23) WJ……. and no I don't stop at one scripture but i conceder all the scriptures and what i believe will fit all of them, but what you believe only fits parts of them and denies the rest, right.? IMO……………gene
GBNot at all. The words of Yeshua's are the Fathers, and the Father's words are Yeshua's. The Father does not speak apart from the Son.
But I am quite sure he speaks apart from you or any other mere man.
WJ…..So where it says that GOD spoke to us in times past (THROUGH) the PROPHETS is also a LIE right, because God does not speak through mere men according to you at least. But the scriptures say differently. So i wonder who should i believe you or the word of God?You theology is wrong WJ. I know that my hurt you some but none the less it's the truth.
IMO…………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 13 2008,05:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 13 2008,05:35) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 13 2008,05:23) WJ……. and no I don't stop at one scripture but i conceder all the scriptures and what i believe will fit all of them, but what you believe only fits parts of them and denies the rest, right.? IMO……………gene
GBNot at all. The words of Yeshua's are the Fathers, and the Father's words are Yeshua's. The Father does not speak apart from the Son.
But I am quite sure he speaks apart from you or any other mere man.
WJ…..So where it says that GOD spoke to us in times past (THROUGH) the PROPHETS is also a LIE right, because God does not speak through mere men according to you at least. But the scriptures say differently. So i wonder who should i believe you or the word of God?You theology is wrong WJ. I know that my hurt you some but none the less it's the truth.
IMO…………gene
GBPlenty of words you try and put in my nouth. I understand though, that is your style.
You cannot hurt me. For I believe you are in error like you believe I am.
Hello!
This debate has been going on for centuries.
The scriptures say…
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in *my word*, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:31, 32What truth? Who is the “Truth”. Wow only God could claim to be “the Truth” and say that if you keep his commandments you would know him. Know who? A mere man? I thought we are supposed to know God? But of course, you cant know God unless you know Yeshua. Another “Wow”. You mean if I hear Yeshua I hear God and know God? You mean if I see Yeshua I see God?
You do believe in the words of Jesus don't you GB?
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