How is Jesus not God?

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ……..your tweaking scriptures again, by adding things that are not specifically said. If you are going to quote a scripture why add words that are there in the original text. Where it say's in Hebrews “every (Spirit) that confess not that Jesus came in the Flesh is not of God.

Where do you get
(The word/God) at, it certainly isn't in the text. Ill answer that question for you, you get it from your preconceived Doctrinal View point. There is no foundation for Jesus being almighty God at all in scriptures. I almost every case you have to insert meanings into the text that aren't specifically said.

Let's take John 1:1..> do you see the word Jesus in there, NO, So people Just add it in. The word (word) means intelligent utterances ie., (and GOD said) in others word God uttered intelligent words. In the beginning God (SAID) intelligent words and His powers brought it about. The name Jesus is not used at all in John1:1, people who are forcing the text add it in.

IMO………….gene

[gsilva72]

If you were talking to me, ok, your right. 2 Peter 1:20 says, ” Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. This time scripture speaks for itself !  

[gsilva72]

Hi Timothy VI,

Scripture declares in 1 Timothy 3:16 “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.”

[Proclaimer]

gsilva72.

God is invisible and Jesus is the image of that invisible God.

Likewise Adam is/was a person and Eve was his image and is/was a person. But they are 2 different beings. They are 2 different identities.

God can only be seen by representations or images of him.
Even the universe declares his glory and the greatest glory of God is his son. God can also be seen in his people.

But let me make this clear.

No one can see God or has ever seen him.
He is Spirit and he is invisible.
He is also beyond even his own creation, but inhabits here by his Spirit.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (gsilva72 @ May 09 2008,13:42)

If you were talking to me, ok, your right. 2 Peter 1:20 says, ” Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. This time scripture speaks for itself !

First off, Jesus is not the Heavenly Father. Everlasting father is the same word father when speaking of father Abraham and Jesus is greater than Abraham.
Next he is the mighty El. El has the following possible meanings:

Definition:

   1. god, god-like one, mighty one
         1. mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
         2. angels
         3. god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
         4. God, the one true God, Jehovah
   2. mighty things in nature
   3. strength, power

Even the word Elohim is used of men and angels, so the mere use of such a word doesn't mean the subject is YHWH, for if that were the case, then men and angles would also be YHWH.

When you see the word God/Theos/Elohim, you need to read the context. After all any of the below could be referenced:

[Proclaimer]

Jesus is not God because he is the son of God.

Likewise I am not my father, but the son of my father.

Jesus being the son of God seems to be truth that suffers the most opposition.

Trinitarians deny it in principle and Moslems deny it in both word and principle.
Atheists deny God and therefore by reason of that deny the son.

But to deny the son is to deny God.

Jesus is the son of God and messiah.

[gsilva72]

You would have a good point except you fail to realize how the “G” in the text of Isaiah 9:6 is written compared to the “g” in Psalm 82:6. Psalm 82:6 “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.” Thus, definition “1” would refer to Psalms 82:6 and definition “4” would refer to Isaiah 9:6. It was written that way for a reason.

[jhenTux]

how Jesus is not God?

from what i understand, i have never read anything in the bible calling Jesus as “God the Son”. but there is “God the Father”.

i have never read anything also Jesus saying “I am God. Worship me.”

i created this thread to discuss the different verses calling Jesus as God:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1818

[gsilva72]

You are right, nowhere in the bible does the term ” God the Son ” ever appear. I don't disagree that Jesus is the ” Son of God “. He is both man and God. In other words deity. Hence the scripture Titus 2:13 ” looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,”

[Cato]

Quote (gsilva72 @ May 10 2008,01:52)

He is both man and God. In other words deity. Hence the scripture Titus 2:13 ” looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,”

Being both man and god would be defined as demigod, would it not?
Mark 10:18  “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”

Why does he say this if he is God himself?

Mark 13:32  “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

This states that the Son does not have knowledge that the father has.  This shows lack of omniscience, and so proves inferiority to the Father.  Inferiority shows inequality.  While you can state Jesus is a god or more correctly demigod, if you believe he is of human mother and divine father, but you can not state he is God himself or equal to him without invalidating the gospel of Mark.

[gsilva72]

Cato: It is called subjection in the Godhead: Philippians 2:5-8 “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 1 Corinthians 11:3” But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Just because he didn't know the day or hour doesn't make him any less God.

[Jodi]

Hi, gsilva72

From the scripture you just quoted, 1 Cor 11:3, wouldn't you have to at least admit, since God is the head of Christ like Christ is the head of man, that Christ is not equal with YHWH?

[Cato]

Quote (gsilva72 @ May 10 2008,04:49)

Cato: It is called subjection in the Godhead: Philippians 2:5-8 “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 1 Corinthians 11:3” But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Just because he didn't know the day or hour doesn't make him any less God.

subjection –   conquest, conquering, subjection, subjugation
the act of conquering  

To be subjected in the Godhead means to be subjugated or conquered by same, thus you have a superior inferior relation by this thought.

While you can make an argument Jesus is divine, you still can not make the argument he is God as most view him (the creator, all knowing, all powerful, limitless, etc.,) for reasons indicated: his submission to God, his assuming limited form, his lack of total ominiscience.  This leaves jesus as perhaps a god, a demigod or even an avatar of God, but not God himself.

Also you never addressed Mark 10:18.

[gsilva72]

Cato- To address Mark 10:18. Yes, Jesus did receive worship. John 20:28 “And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.” Jesus didn't decline this praise from Thomas nor Thomas's realization that Jesus is God!

[gsilva72]

Hi Jodi,

I agree. John 14:28 says Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. But Jesus also declares in John 10:30 ” I and my Father are one.”

[942767]

Quote (gsilva72 @ May 10 2008,08:37)

Hi Jodi, I agree. John 14:28 says Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. But Jesus also declares in  John 10:30 ” I and my Father are one.”

Hi:

The Father and the Son are “one in the spirit”. They are two distinct beings or souls. Jesus is the express image of God's person. (Hebrews 1:3) We see him thus through the works that he did in obedience to God.

Quote

Jhn 14:7 ¶ If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Jhn 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Jhn 14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake

[Jodi]

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human,

Yeshua is not God, he is a human mediator to the people for the One God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 09 2008,12:37)

WJ……..your tweaking scriptures again, by adding things that are not specifically said. If you are going to quote a scripture why add words that are  there in the original text. Where it say's in Hebrews “every (Spirit) that confess not that Jesus came in the Flesh is not of God. Where do you get (The word/God) at, it certainly isn't in the text. Ill answer that question for you, you get it from your preconceived Doctrinal View point. There is no foundation for Jesus being almighty God at all in scriptures. I almost every case you have to insert meanings into the text that aren't specifically said. Let's take John 1:1..> do you see the word Jesus in there, NO, So people Just add it in. The word (word) means intelligent utterances ie., (and GOD said) in others word God uttered intelligent words. In the beginning God (SAID) intelligent words and His powers brought it about. The name Jesus is not used at all in John1:1, people who are forcing the text add it in. IMO………….gene

GB

And there you go denying certain scriptures again.

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
(1 John 1:1-3)

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev 19:13)

So who is the word spoken of in the above scriptures. Is Jesus the Word or not?

So are you saying John did not understand that Jesus was the Word in John 1:1?

If Jesus is the Word and John 1:1 says he was God, then it dosnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

Who is it that John says came in the flesh. Hence the Word/God.

But let me guess, you have “The Truth”, so the scriptures that I take litterally, comparing scriptures with scripture, and letting them interpret themselves, you do not believe.

So who is tweaking the scriptures and forcing the text to make them say what they want?

IMO

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ May 08 2008,21:54)

As a believer we are to believe that he came from God and is his son. Hence the son of God. This is a foundational truth. But it seems that the foundation is under attack. The good news is not even the gates of hell will prevail. Matthew 16:16 15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. If you wonder what is the foundational truth of Christ's body, then look at what Peter said. But many today seem to think that he said “You are God and God is a Trinity, and the son is one member of that Trinity”. Sorry if it hurts your feelings, but this is a lie. Jesus simply didn't build his Church on that doctrine, in fact no one in scripture even teaches it. This teaching/doctrine came later around the time Paul warned that many would be deceived by people from among them. Paul was an apostle and he rightly said in Acts 20:29-30 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.” Yeshua is the son of God and the messiah. No one an argue against this and not have serious issues with scripture.

Quote (t8 @ May 08 2008,21:54)

But many today seem to think that he said “You are God and God is a Trinity, and the son is one member of that Trinity”. Sorry if it hurts your feelings, but this is a lie.

t8

Sorry to hurt your feelings but saying that Jesus is not God is a lie and contrary to the scriptures.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (John 20:28)

as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. (Titus 2:13)

tn The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, qeos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, swthr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on Sharp’s rule see ExSyn 270-78, esp. 276. See also 2 Pet 1:1 and Jude 4.
http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Tit&chapter=2#v20

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:20)

The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, “I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar.” The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.

I know you would like for these scriptures to go away.

The problem is you have identity and nature confused.

The word God/Theos does not describe identity as you have so rightly pointed out that there are other so-called gods or false gods.

The term God/Theos describes nature, therfore just as you would not say you are your Father (Identity) or your Father is not you, however you and your Father are “human”, (Nature). You are the express image of your Fathers substance.

Jesus is the “Only monogenes, “Unique” son of God, he is not the Father but he is God in nature, the express image of his substance.

So it is written. Jesus is the Word that was/is with God and the Word that was/is God.

It was explained very well here!

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375

[gsilva72]

Hi WJ,

We both seem to agree that Jesus is God. I know you are a Trinitarian and I'm a oneness believer at the moment. In Hebrews 1: 8-10, it seems as if the Father is talking to the son. The problem I'm having in believing in the Trinity is how can the Father and the Holy Spirit be 2 seperate persons when the Bible declares that “God is a Spirit” John 4:24 That means there are 2 Spirits that make up God, but that contradicts John 4:24 That would also mean Jesus had two Fathers.

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