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Quote (david @ April 16 2008,19:32) Quote If you take the NT at face value, none of the learned Jews listened anyways. –kejonn
Of course, this is incorrect. If we take the NT at face value (“a literal or direct meaning or interpretation”) did “none” of the learned Jews listen?
ACTS 26:5
“that have been previously acquainted with me from the first know, if they but wish to bear witness, that according to the strictest sect of our form of worship I lived a Pharisee.”PHILIPPIANS 3:5
“circumcised the eighth day, out of the family stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew [born] from Hebrews; as respects law, a Pharisee;”Who tells us Paul was a Pharisee? Lets see…I know…Paul! So I guess we are to take his word as “gospel” truth. Plus Paul had his Damascus Road encounter. Before that, he supposedly persecuted Christians.
Why does Jesus rely on a book today when he was more “in your face” back then?
Quote If we take it at face value, then you are wrong:
JOHN 12:42-43
“All the same, many even of the rulers actually put faith in him, but because of the Pharisees they would not confess [him], in order not to be expelled from the synagogue; for they loved the glory of men more than even the glory of God.”
If they didn't confess him, then where they worthy of him?Mar 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Seriously David, I thought you knew more about the bible than you seem to be showing here lately.
Hi all.
Has anybody read these scriptures in the NT? There are more.
2 Thess 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:Rom 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Rom 2:5-8
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,Rom 9:22
[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:Rom 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.Hebrews 10:30
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.Jud 1:10-19
Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals–these are the very things that destroy them.
Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.Jud 1:12
These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm–shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted–twice dead.
Jud 1:13
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Jud 1:14
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones
Jud 1:15
to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”
Jud 1:16
These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
Jud 1:17
But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold.
Jud 1:18
They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.”
Jud 1:19
These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.Revelation 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:Jesus came as the suffering servant the first time, but he will return as the King and righteous judge the second time.
Consider the plagues written of in Revelation.
Do not believe it if you choose, but don’t claim that the God of the OT is not the God of the NT. Jesus never once spoke against the scriptures, both the Torah and the Tanakh.
God is not some pansy God that cannot or will not judge evil and bring it to an end.
You will need to throw away a good part of the NT as well as the OT to hold the view that God is some mushy teddy bear that you can just kick around or do what ever you want to him without consequence.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 18 2008,12:54) Hi all. Has anybody read these scriptures in the NT? There are more.
2 Thess 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:Rom 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Rom 2:5-8
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,Rom 9:22
[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:Rom 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.Hebrews 10:30
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.Jud 1:10-19
Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals–these are the very things that destroy them.
Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.Jud 1:12
These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm–shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted–twice dead.
Jud 1:13
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Jud 1:14
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones
Jud 1:15
to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”
Jud 1:16
These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
Jud 1:17
But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold.
Jud 1:18
They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.”
Jud 1:19
These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.Revelation 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:Jesus came as the suffering servant the first time, but he will return as the King and righteous judge the second time.
Consider the plagues written of in Revelation.
Do not believe it if you choose, but don’t claim that the God of the OT is not the God of the NT. Jesus never once spoke against the scriptures, both the Torah and the Tanakh.
God is not some pansy God that cannot or will not judge evil and bring it to an end.
You will need to throw away a good part of the NT as well as the OT to hold the view that God is some mushy teddy bear that you can just kick around or do what ever you want to him without consequence.
Amen brother. They have been warned whether or not they choose to believe. God Bless You and your family.Hey, finally some honest Christians who will own up to their desire to see Jesus and Yahweh kick some unholy butt! After all, it is sinful for women to have their monthly period!
Aren't you guys glad you are on the “winning” side?
Quote Who tells us Paul was a Pharisee? Lets see…I know…Paul! So I guess we are to take his word as “gospel” truth. Plus Paul had his Damascus Road encounter. Before that, he supposedly persecuted Christians. Kejonn, you have this habit where people show you you're plainly wrong and you go off on some other rant. You do it a lot.
You said this:
If you take the NT at face value, none of the learned Jews listened anyways.
And I kind of thought you would try to weasel with this one, so I looked up and defined “face value” for everyone.Quote Of course, this is incorrect. If we take the NT at face value (“a literal or direct meaning or interpretation”) did “none” of the learned Jews listen? Then, I quoted the NT, at face value.
Then, since you didn't like it, you decided NOT to take it at face value, because that didn't suit your argument.
And, here's another example, in the same post, of you doing this again.
I had quoted this, which clearly shows you are wrong:JOHN 12:42-43
“All the same, many even of the rulers actually put faith in him, but because of the Pharisees they would not confess [him], in order not to be expelled from the synagogue; for they loved the glory of men more than even the glory of God.”Since you don't like to admit you're wrong, you attack some other part of the scripture? ? ?
That is messed up.Then, on top of all this, you have the audacity to make statements like this:
Quote Seriously David, I thought you knew more about the bible than you seem to be showing here lately.
I find this just bizarre.“If you take the NT at FACE VALUE, none of the learned Jews listened anyways.”–kejonn
You were wrong. And when I showed you the scriptures, you childishly pointed to other things. Then, you accuse me of not knowing the Bible, despite the fact that I found the scriptures that you claimed didn't exist!
Your tactics are weak.
Quote (kejonn @ April 18 2008,15:07) Hey, finally some honest Christians who will own up to their desire to see Jesus and Yahweh kick some unholy butt! After all, it is sinful for women to have their monthly period! Aren't you guys glad you are on the “winning” side?
kejonnI hope you and yours are well.
No, a Christian dosnt desire to see God kick a human or cause them to suffer.
But it is true that a Christian desires that evil will be brought to an end.
Why would anyone wish that the dark evils in the world we see today would continue to bring suffering to man?
kejonn, I dont have all the answers as to why some things are as they are or how it will all turn out.
But I do believe that God is merciful and loving, and that love and mercy would demand an end to evil.
Blessings to you.
keith
Quote (kejonn @ April 18 2008,15:07) Hey, finally some honest Christians who will own up to their desire to see Jesus and Yahweh kick some unholy butt! After all, it is sinful for women to have their monthly period! Aren't you guys glad you are on the “winning” side?
They just cant hear Kejonn…
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 18 2008,12:54) Hi all. Has anybody read these scriptures in the NT? There are more.
2 Thess 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:Rom 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Rom 2:5-8
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,Rom 9:22
[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:Rom 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.Hebrews 10:30
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.Jud 1:10-19
Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals–these are the very things that destroy them.
Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.Jud 1:12
These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm–shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted–twice dead.
Jud 1:13
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Jud 1:14
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones
Jud 1:15
to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”
Jud 1:16
These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
Jud 1:17
But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold.
Jud 1:18
They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.”
Jud 1:19
These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.Revelation 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:Jesus came as the suffering servant the first time, but he will return as the King and righteous judge the second time.
Consider the plagues written of in Revelation.
Do not believe it if you choose, but don’t claim that the God of the OT is not the God of the NT. Jesus never once spoke against the scriptures, both the Torah and the Tanakh.
God is not some pansy God that cannot or will not judge evil and bring it to an end.
You will need to throw away a good part of the NT as well as the OT to hold the view that God is some mushy teddy bear that you can just kick around or do what ever you want to him without consequence.
Hi WorshippingJesusYou have demonstrated that in fact the god of the OT, with all his human frailties and shortcomings is still a very human god in the NT. Where did the concept of an all-able and all-loving deity come from? Is that an alternative interpretation from elsewhere?
Stuart
Quote (david @ April 17 2008,23:17) Quote Who tells us Paul was a Pharisee? Lets see…I know…Paul! So I guess we are to take his word as “gospel” truth. Plus Paul had his Damascus Road encounter. Before that, he supposedly persecuted Christians. Kejonn, you have this habit where people show you you're plainly wrong and you go off on some other rant. You do it a lot.
You said this:
If you take the NT at face value, none of the learned Jews listened anyways.
And I kind of thought you would try to weasel with this one, so I looked up and defined “face value” for everyone.Quote Of course, this is incorrect. If we take the NT at face value (“a literal or direct meaning or interpretation”) did “none” of the learned Jews listen? Then, I quoted the NT, at face value.
Then, since you didn't like it, you decided NOT to take it at face value, because that didn't suit your argument.
And, here's another example, in the same post, of you doing this again.
I had quoted this, which clearly shows you are wrong:JOHN 12:42-43
“All the same, many even of the rulers actually put faith in him, but because of the Pharisees they would not confess [him], in order not to be expelled from the synagogue; for they loved the glory of men more than even the glory of God.”Since you don't like to admit you're wrong, you attack some other part of the scripture? ? ?
That is messed up.
Uh, what other part did I attack? And how easy is it to say “many even of the rulers” so as to lend some creedence in the eyes of readers? What would have been fantastic would be to be given some of the names of those leaders, eh? Maybe one, two? Nah, just “many even of the rulers”.But how do we know the rulers put their faith in him IF THEY NEVER CONFESSED HIM? Was the writer of GoJ psychic? Did he read their minds? Hmmm….
Quote Then, on top of all this, you have the audacity to make statements like this: Quote Seriously David, I thought you knew more about the bible than you seem to be showing here lately.
I find this just bizarre.
See above.Quote “If you take the NT at FACE VALUE, none of the learned Jews listened anyways.”–kejonn
See above. If they never confessed him, there's no way the put their faith in him. Unless the writer went by the look in their eyes or perhaps some body motion or something. “See, see! Look at the gleem he gets in his eyes when Jesus is here! He has faith in him.”Quote You were wrong. And when I showed you the scriptures, you childishly pointed to other things. Then, you accuse me of not knowing the Bible, despite the fact that I found the scriptures that you claimed didn't exist! Your tactics are weak.
Good luck with that.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 18 2008,00:24) Quote (kejonn @ April 18 2008,15:07) Hey, finally some honest Christians who will own up to their desire to see Jesus and Yahweh kick some unholy butt! After all, it is sinful for women to have their monthly period! Aren't you guys glad you are on the “winning” side?
kejonnI hope you and yours are well.
No, a Christian dosnt desire to see God kick a human or cause them to suffer.
But it is true that a Christian desires that evil will be brought to an end.
Why would anyone wish that the dark evils in the world we see today would continue to bring suffering to man?
kejonn, I dont have all the answers as to why some things are as they are or how it will all turn out.
But I do believe that God is merciful and loving, and that love and mercy would demand an end to evil.
Blessings to you.
keith
Thanks WJ. I know most Christians don't feel that way. I just think it is sad the way Yahweh acted in the OT, that's all. That is why, to me, the OT view of God is inaccurate. Yahweh is way too human in his emotions to be God.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 18 2008,12:54) God is not some pansy God that cannot or will not judge evil and bring it to an end. You will need to throw away a good part of the NT as well as the OT to hold the view that God is some mushy teddy bear that you can just kick around or do what ever you want to him without consequence.
Those of us who hold that God is an unmanifest, being of omniscience, omnipotence and perfection are not the ones applying human attributes to the creator. We do not see him as a “pansy or mushy” any more then we see him as angry, jealous, wrathful or regretful. I don't believe God makes mistakes or has regrets like in Gen 6:6-7 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”I don't believe God negotiates and barters with men as in Gen 18: 26-32.
I don't believe God manifested himself in physical form and wrestled with Jacob as in Gen 32:22-31, sounds like Heracles not God.
It makes no sense that the Lord of the universe has a favorite race of people (who conviently happen to be the Bible writers).
I don't believe God ordered the death of children and infants as in 1 Samuel 15:3.
I think God set up a Universe of Law and in that law cause and effect is self evident. I don't think God punishes evil so much as those who are purveyors of such, will bear the fruits of their own acts. Good and evil return to us as every action has a reaction like in physics. The concept of karma makes more sense in this regard then some infinite reward or punishment for finite circumstances.
Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,00:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 18 2008,12:54) God is not some pansy God that cannot or will not judge evil and bring it to an end. You will need to throw away a good part of the NT as well as the OT to hold the view that God is some mushy teddy bear that you can just kick around or do what ever you want to him without consequence.
Those of us who hold that God is an unmanifest, being of omniscience, omnipotence and perfection are not the ones applying human attributes to the creator. We do not see him as a “pansy or mushy” any more then we see him as angry, jealous, wrathful or regretful. I don't believe God makes mistakes or has regrets like in Gen 6:6-7 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”I don't believe God negotiates and barters with men as in Gen 18: 26-32.
I don't believe God manifested himself in physical form and wrestled with Jacob as in Gen 32:22-31, sounds like Heracles not God.
It makes no sense that the Lord of the universe has a favorite race of people (who conviently happen to be the Bible writers).
I don't believe God ordered the death of children and infants as in 1 Samuel 15:3.
I think God set up a Universe of Law and in that law cause and effect is self evident. I don't think God punishes evil so much as those who are purveyors of such, will bear the fruits of their own acts. Good and evil return to us as every action has a reaction like in physics. The concept of karma makes more sense in this regard then some infinite reward or punishment for finite circumstances.
catoYes. And it is your right to believe that way.
But the Bible is a gathering of 66 books with thousands of scriptures that “Christians” believe in.
Do they all agree? No. Do all Deist agree? No.
Basically this is the difference between a “believer” and an “unbeliever”.
Most of your comment is summed up like this, “I Don't Believe”.
So you disagree with millions and millions of believers from the past to the present including Jesus. Many have died for their faith which is based in the scriptures, for without the scriptures there would be no knowledge of the God of the OT or the NT.
Again this is your right.
But Jesus himself made claim to the OT scriptures.
Matt 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?Matt 22:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.Matt 26:54
But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?Matt 26:56
But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.Mk 16:49
I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.Luke 24:32
And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?Luke 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,Jn 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.Again, you choose “not to believe”, I choose to believe.
What you are saying is that you believe the Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent God cannot do all the things mentioned in the Bible.
What I am saying is I believe he can.
If God is the big three “Os” then plain logic would say that there may be a lot of things I do not understand about this God. And just maybe there are things that are far to high for me to understand.
Isa 55:9
For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.Rom 11:33
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!So what is the point? Why do you guys spend so much time trying to prove the scriptures wrong.
If you believe that your God is “Passive” and dosnt get involved with the affairs of men, then what difference does it make?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,02:59) Cato,April wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,April 18 2008,12:54]
So what is the point? Why do you guys spend so much time trying to prove the scriptures wrong.
Hi worshippingJesus,I don't know if I am lumped in with that group that is “trying to prove the scriptures wrong” or not.
I suppose that I do post many scriptures that I simply can not understand being right. Especially the ones that denegrade God. But what I am looking for is someone who can help me see the light if I am wrong.
I think that you make an honest effort to do that.
Bless you and thank you,Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 19 2008,04:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,02:59) Cato,April wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,April 18 2008,12:54]
So what is the point? Why do you guys spend so much time trying to prove the scriptures wrong.
Hi worshippingJesus,I don't know if I am lumped in with that group that is “trying to prove the scriptures wrong” or not.
I suppose that I do post many scriptures that I simply can not understand being right. Especially the ones that denegrade God. But what I am looking for is someone who can help me see the light if I am wrong.
I think that you make an honest effort to do that.
Bless you and thank you,Tim
Hi TimYou say…
Quote
I suppose that I do post many scriptures that I simply can not understand being right. Especially the ones that denegrade God. But what I am looking for is someone who can help me see the light if I am wrong.I wish I did have all the answers Tim. But I don't and neither does anyone on this board.
But I do believe that the God I serve is the big three “Os” and I have come to know him by his Spirit and by the scriptures.
Will we have all understanding of him on this side. I dont think so.
1 Cor 13:12, 13
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity.
Call it blind faith if yoiu like. I suppose that is what faith is.
I believe in the scriptures like Jesus did and the Apostles, and I find it hard to believe that a follower of Jesus would not also believe in them.
Thanks for your kind words.
Blessings!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,02:59) cato Yes. And it is your right to believe that way.
But the Bible is a gathering of 66 books with thousands of scriptures that “Christians” believe in.
Do they all agree? No. Do all Deist agree? No.
Basically this is the difference between a “believer” and an “unbeliever”.
Most of your comment is summed up like this, “I Don't Believe”.
So you disagree with millions and millions of believers from the past to the present including Jesus. Many have died for their faith which is based in the scriptures, for without the scriptures there would be no knowledge of the God of the OT or the NT.
I noticed that you never answered my points on whether or not you agree or disagree that the Almighty did those things that I quoted in the OT. In that you are like Nick. The difference between us is that I do not base a religious dogma on such works or state that these books are God's word or will and thus justify all my actions upon. In this the fundamentalist is the same for all the major religions, our holy text, state the truth. Alas, I must look at everything with the lens of reason and conscience and retain doubts about what I think I know, for I am given no absolutes other then God's existence and creation. I can take both truth and fable from the Bible as I can view it as inspired, but often flawed for I think it is the work of men rather then God. If you think it is God's word then you must accept it all, for if one part is wrong, it destroys the ideal of biblical infallibility.Beliefs, I have them, but you discard those points. God is perfection and outside of human understanding. His presence and benificience is shown in creation and the order thereof.
As for the millions upon millions of believers, who both died and killed for, their faith; evidently the reliance on dogma over reason seemed enough to put them at each other throats over the years. The Crusades against the sons of Islam (who have many millions of believers of their own), the Thirty years war, the Inquistion, the Spanish Conquest and conversion of the New World, Catholic league vs the Huguenots, the list is a lengthy one. They all seemed to think that scripture justified their particular dogma and that God blessed their endeavors. That is the result of following written texts as if they were God's command, if they were in truth, I think they would be clearer and less subject to dispute and misunderstanding.Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,06:05) If you think it is God's word then you must accept it all, for if one part is wrong, it destroys the ideal of biblical infallibility.
My doubt in the bible started when I realized that 1 John 5:7 had been added by a scribe. From that moment on I've sat back and said, “Hmmmm.”. Taking nothing again for faith value.Thank you Keith and Cato for having this discussion – I'm listening in.
MandyQuote (TimothyVI @ April 19 2008,04:23) I don't know if I am lumped in with that group that is “trying to prove the scriptures wrong” or not.
I thought you were the gang leader, Tim?
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 18 2008,13:59) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 19 2008,04:23) I don't know if I am lumped in with that group that is “trying to prove the scriptures wrong” or not.
I thought you were the gang leader, Tim?
Nah, that would be me. Cato is more diplomatic and Stu doesn't believe any of it, so that leaves me as the confrontational bad guy
.Quote (kejonn @ April 19 2008,07:07) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 18 2008,13:59) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 19 2008,04:23) I don't know if I am lumped in with that group that is “trying to prove the scriptures wrong” or not.
I thought you were the gang leader, Tim?
Nah, that would be me. Cato is more diplomatic and Stu doesn't believe any of it, so that leaves me as the confrontational bad guy.
I was just kidding Tim.I know you're the HeavenNet “bad boy” now. Ha! Man, if Tow came back we would have to shut the place down.
I think different points of view are good.
Take care, Don Kevin!
Mandy
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