Homosexuality

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,14:30)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2009,05:35) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,02:36) For the gazillionth time, it is not me preaching death. I don’t even think gay people have the motivation to hate you, or any other homophobic moralophobes like you. Oh so now the gay community doesn't even have hate in there ranks, especially for Judeo Christians?       They have pretty good reasons if they do. You have no reason at all to persecute gays. It is not as if christianity is an inherent part of your make up.  It is a lifestyle add-on you chose, and an immoral one in my opinion.  You were born atheist. What went wrong? By contrast, homosexuality is built into the makeup of the gay person from before birth. Nothing went wrong for them, unless your would like to concede that your omnipotent creator is incompetent in allowing the possibility of something that he supposedly has so much hatred for. So how do you justify your moralophobic homophobia in terms that could be universally understood in ethical terms? You have not done that yet.  There are no victims of homosexuality in its own right, it is just the ancient middle-eastern prejudice you have insisted is the Absolute TruthTM on which you base your bile.   If I said as a non-believer you will boil in hot pasta forever for not paying homage to the Flying Spaghetti Monster (bhna) every time you order pasta at an Italian restaurant, you would pronounce me crazy. Well your mythology looks exactly the same as that from where I am standing. Can justify the nasty mythology you support that causes people to hide their sexuality or take their own lives because of it?  Maybe it is time to consider whether Jesus would have wanted you to cause such needless misery for others. If Abrahamists stopped their brutal judgements on gays they might not feel the need to object in turn. I don't expect you to understand that though.  You are well programmed by your belief system, which is why it is so insidious.  Fundumentalist christianity is all about absolutism and brinkmanship, and its believers should be allowed to live in a special medieval world that has no moral philosophy or modern medicine.  Afghanistan, perhaps.  That is the kind of setup you crave by your fundamentalist religious mentality.  You might also find out what happens when brutal fundies of different persuasions meet, too. Stuart

Puke! ARRG! Gag a maggot!

You are so full of hate for Christians you cannot even see it!

Your hate has totally blinded you! You are right, gays are not full of such hate, and you are a sad commentary for them!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,14:36)

So you withdraw the 'lie' bit?! Stuart

No

I disregard your interpretation of Pauls words! He is not inciting Christians to kill the gays. He is saying that God will bring judgment on them because of the sinful acts as well as any other sinner!

WJ

[Stu]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2009,06:43)

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,14:36) So you withdraw the 'lie' bit?! Stuart No I disregard your interpretation of Pauls words! He is not inciting Christians to kill the gays. He is saying that God will bring judgment on them because of the sinful acts as well as any other sinner! WJ

Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

We all know what your misery manual says about god's judgment. Now, who is to do the killing, if these people are worthy of death? Most of the divine killing is inspired by god, not carried out by him. Would you accept 'god told me to do it' as a defense?

Unless you live in a fantasy world, this can only be incitement to murder.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2009,06:40)

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,14:30) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2009,05:35) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,02:36) For the gazillionth time, it is not me preaching death. I don’t even think gay people have the motivation to hate you, or any other homophobic moralophobes like you. Oh so now the gay community doesn't even have hate in there ranks, especially for Judeo Christians?       They have pretty good reasons if they do. You have no reason at all to persecute gays. It is not as if christianity is an inherent part of your make up.  It is a lifestyle add-on you chose, and an immoral one in my opinion.  You were born atheist. What went wrong? By contrast, homosexuality is built into the makeup of the gay person from before birth. Nothing went wrong for them, unless your would like to concede that your omnipotent creator is incompetent in allowing the possibility of something that he supposedly has so much hatred for. So how do you justify your moralophobic homophobia in terms that could be universally understood in ethical terms? You have not done that yet.  There are no victims of homosexuality in its own right, it is just the ancient middle-eastern prejudice you have insisted is the Absolute TruthTM on which you base your bile.   If I said as a non-believer you will boil in hot pasta forever for not paying homage to the Flying Spaghetti Monster (bhna) every time you order pasta at an Italian restaurant, you would pronounce me crazy. Well your mythology looks exactly the same as that from where I am standing. Can justify the nasty mythology you support that causes people to hide their sexuality or take their own lives because of it?  Maybe it is time to consider whether Jesus would have wanted you to cause such needless misery for others. If Abrahamists stopped their brutal judgements on gays they might not feel the need to object in turn. I don't expect you to understand that though.  You are well programmed by your belief system, which is why it is so insidious.  Fundumentalist christianity is all about absolutism and brinkmanship, and its believers should be allowed to live in a special medieval world that has no moral philosophy or modern medicine.  Afghanistan, perhaps.  That is the kind of setup you crave by your fundamentalist religious mentality.  You might also find out what happens when brutal fundies of different persuasions meet, too. Stuart Puke! ARRG! Gag a maggot! You are so full of hate for Christians you cannot even see it! Your hate has totally blinded you! You are right, gays are not full of such hate, and you are a sad commentary for them! WJ

So no reasoned response this time either?

Where does it say I hate christians?

I do loathe christianity, but it is from concern for those suffering from it.

Stuart

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,14:50)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2009,06:40) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,14:30) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2009,05:35) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,02:36) For the gazillionth time, it is not me preaching death. I don’t even think gay people have the motivation to hate you, or any other homophobic moralophobes like you. Oh so now the gay community doesn't even have hate in there ranks, especially for Judeo Christians?       They have pretty good reasons if they do. You have no reason at all to persecute gays. It is not as if christianity is an inherent part of your make up.  It is a lifestyle add-on you chose, and an immoral one in my opinion.  You were born atheist. What went wrong? By contrast, homosexuality is built into the makeup of the gay person from before birth. Nothing went wrong for them, unless your would like to concede that your omnipotent creator is incompetent in allowing the possibility of something that he supposedly has so much hatred for. So how do you justify your moralophobic homophobia in terms that could be universally understood in ethical terms? You have not done that yet.  There are no victims of homosexuality in its own right, it is just the ancient middle-eastern prejudice you have insisted is the Absolute TruthTM on which you base your bile.   If I said as a non-believer you will boil in hot pasta forever for not paying homage to the Flying Spaghetti Monster (bhna) every time you order pasta at an Italian restaurant, you would pronounce me crazy. Well your mythology looks exactly the same as that from where I am standing. Can justify the nasty mythology you support that causes people to hide their sexuality or take their own lives because of it?  Maybe it is time to consider whether Jesus would have wanted you to cause such needless misery for others. If Abrahamists stopped their brutal judgements on gays they might not feel the need to object in turn. I don't expect you to understand that though.  You are well programmed by your belief system, which is why it is so insidious.  Fundumentalist christianity is all about absolutism and brinkmanship, and its believers should be allowed to live in a special medieval world that has no moral philosophy or modern medicine.  Afghanistan, perhaps.  That is the kind of setup you crave by your fundamentalist religious mentality.  You might also find out what happens when brutal fundies of different persuasions meet, too. Stuart Puke! ARRG! Gag a maggot! You are so full of hate for Christians you cannot even see it! Your hate has totally blinded you! You are right, gays are not full of such hate, and you are a sad commentary for them! WJ So no reasoned response this time either? Where does it say I hate christians? I do loathe christianity, but it is from concern for those suffering from it. Stuart

Hi Stu

You do not have to say I hate Christians for it oozes out of your post like the smell of rotten meat full of maggots with all of your personal insults, name calling, Patronizing, and condescending attitude!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,14:48)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2009,06:43) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,14:36) So you withdraw the 'lie' bit?! Stuart No I disregard your interpretation of Pauls words! He is not inciting Christians to kill the gays. He is saying that God will bring judgment on them because of the sinful acts as well as any other sinner! WJ Rom 1:31  Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Rom 1:32  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. We all know what your misery manual says about god's judgment.  Now, who is to do the killing, if these people are worthy of death?  Most of the divine killing is inspired by god, not carried out by him.  Would you accept 'god told me to do it' as a defense? Unless you live in a fantasy world, this can only be incitement to murder. Stuart

No it is you who lives in a fantasy world!

Do you see Judeo Christians killing gays? Where in the NT Scriptures did this happen?

[Stu]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2009,06:55)

You do not have to say I hate Christians for it oozes out of your post like the smell of rotten meat full of maggots with all of your personal insults, name calling, Patronizing, and condescending attitude! WJ

Your belief system is islamic in the way it makes you see your belief as your identity.

I do not have any feelings of animosity to you personally whatever. It is some of the ideas you carry in your head that are the issue.

Ideas can be adopted and discarded. I am suggesting that your brain is in need of clearing out of ideas that are clearly unpleasant and cause pain for other people when expressed. I do similar clearing out when it appears what I believe and say is wrong or causes pain. I do not believe I have caused you any pain whatever, actually it is just the difference between the ideas in your head and in mine. No blood is lost over ideas unless someone acts on them.

Can you tell the difference between the man and the ball?

Saul of Tarsus certainly didn't want you to be able to do that.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2009,07:06)

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,14:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2009,06:43) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,14:36) So you withdraw the 'lie' bit?! Stuart No I disregard your interpretation of Pauls words! He is not inciting Christians to kill the gays. He is saying that God will bring judgment on them because of the sinful acts as well as any other sinner! WJ Rom 1:31  Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Rom 1:32  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. We all know what your misery manual says about god's judgment.  Now, who is to do the killing, if these people are worthy of death?  Most of the divine killing is inspired by god, not carried out by him.  Would you accept 'god told me to do it' as a defense? Unless you live in a fantasy world, this can only be incitement to murder. Stuart No it is you who lives in a fantasy world! Do you see Judeo Christians killing gays? Where in the NT Scriptures did this happen?

It happened in Israel a couple of weeks ago. You don't need to open any parchments to see Judeo-christianity in its full gory.

Stuart

[Worshipping Jesus]

Stu

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,15:17)

Ideas can be adopted and discarded.  I am suggesting that your brain is in need of clearing out of ideas that are clearly unpleasant and cause pain for other people when expressed.

Your post are not suggestions, but simply attacks and patronizing!

You just simply call people “idiots”, “Ignorant”, “brainless', and “Stupid” as you proceed to tell them that what they believe is “insidious” and is “Brutal”, yet you have no proof that Christians live that way, not now and not in the NT Church!

Your attacks on Christianity are entirely unmerited and based on the sins of men who acted out terrible things in the name of Christianity in the middle ages!

Again, there is a NT that teaches men to Love all men, but yet preach against all unrighteousness and sin which I would bet that most of what we believe as Immoral you believe the same!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,15:19)

It happened in Israel a couple of weeks ago.  You don't need to open any parchments to see Judeo-christianity in its full gory.

I see, so you steriotype all of Christianity because of a few random acts that appose the teachings of the NT scriptures?

Isn't this the same kind of Hypocrosy you accused TT of?

[WhatIsTrue]

WorshippingJesus wrote:

Quote

Your attacks on Christianity are entirely unmerited and based on the sins of men who acted out terrible things in the name of Christianity in the middle ages!

And:

Quote

I see, so you steriotype all of Christianity because of a few random acts that appose the teachings of the NT scriptures?

The history of Christian violence is not confined to a few random acts or the middle ages.

Quote

314AD Immediately after its full legalization, the Christian Church attacks non-Christians. The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis. 324AD The emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire. In Dydima, Minor Asia, he sacks the Oracle of the god Apollo and tortures the pagan priests to death. He also evicts all non-Christian peoples from Mount Athos and destroys all the local Hellenic temples. 335AD Constantine sacks many pagan temples in Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers.”  Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatrus. 341AD Constantius II (Flavius Julius Constantius) persecutes “all the soothsayers and the Hellenists.” Many gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed. 346AD New large scale persecutions against non-Christian peoples in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as a “magician”. 353AD An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifice and “idols”. 354AD A new edict orders the closing of all the pagan temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Execution of pagan priests begins. A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the pagan temples and the execution of all “idolaters”. First burning of libraries in various cities of the empire. The first lime factories are organized next to the closed pagan temples. A major part of the holy architecture of the pagans is turned into lime. 357AD Constantius outlaws all methods of divination (astrology not excluded). 359AD In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organize the first death camps for the torture and executions of the arrested non-Christians from all around the empire. 361 to 363AD Religious tolerance and restoration of the pagan cults is declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the pagan emperor Julian (Flavius Claudius Julianus). 363AD Assassination of Julian (26th June).  (See previous entry for the significance of this event.) 364AD Emperor Jovian orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all those that worship their ancestral gods or practice divination (“sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi curiositas”). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of the pagan temples and the death penalty for participation in pagan rituals, even private ones. The Church Council of Laodicea (Phrygia – western Asia Minor) orders that religious observances are to be conducted on Sunday and not on Saturday. Sunday becomes the new Sabbath. The practice of staying at home and resting on Saturday declared sinful and anathema to Christ. 365 An imperial edict from Emperor Valens, a zealous Arian Christian (17th November), forbids pagan officers of the army to command Christian soldiers. 370AD Valens orders a tremendous persecution of non-Christian peoples in all the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other non-Christians, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed.  The philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated. All the friends of Julian are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.). Tons of books are burnt in the squares of the cities of the Eastern Empire. 372AD Valens orders the governor of Minor Asia to exterminate all the Hellenes and all documents of their wisdom. 373AD New prohibition of all divination methods is issued. The term “pagan” (pagani, villagers, equivalent to the modern insult, “peasants”) is introduced by the Christians to demean non-believers. 375AD The temple of Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down by the Christians. …

For the entire list, go here.

Make no mistake.  This was all done with the blessing of the Church.  Christians wasted no time, once in power, in the pursuit of persecuting the same people who they complained had persecuted them.

Christian violence is a reflection of the degree to which Christians hold power in a given society.  Can you name a Christian nation that was dominated by openly religious leaders, (i.e. no separation of church and state), that wasn't violent towards non-Christians?

[Stu]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2009,08:09)

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,15:19) It happened in Israel a couple of weeks ago.  You don't need to open any parchments to see Judeo-christianity in its full gory. I see, so you steriotype all of Christianity because of a few random acts that appose the teachings of the NT scriptures? Isn't this the same kind of Hypocrosy you accused TT of?

Am I stereotyping?

You asked for an example and I gave you one.

Am I saying all christians or Jews kill gay people? No.

I would say that the Judeo-christian book of misery (the OT part of which is “good to teach”, remember) does require the killing of gays, but christians do not have the guts to make good their threats, except in a few isolated cases.

All brutal talk and no consistent walk. That is christianity in other areas of life too. Have you sold all your belongings yet?

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2009,07:49)

Stu Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,15:17) Ideas can be adopted and discarded.  I am suggesting that your brain is in need of clearing out of ideas that are clearly unpleasant and cause pain for other people when expressed. Your post are not suggestions, but simply attacks and patronizing! You just simply call people “idiots”, “Ignorant”, “brainless', and “Stupid” as you proceed to tell them that what they believe is “insidious” and is “Brutal”, yet you have no proof that Christians live that way, not now and not in the NT Church! Your attacks on Christianity are entirely unmerited and based on the sins of men who acted out terrible things in the name of Christianity in the middle ages! Again, there is a NT that teaches men to Love all men, but yet preach against all unrighteousness and sin which I would bet that most of what we believe as Immoral you believe the same! WJ

Can you show me a single post where I have called a specific person here any of those names?

You should pay more attention: I play the ball not the man.

I think I have justified my descriptions of christianity and I don't think I have read any really good rebuttals. Mostly I just get scripture quoted at me, which you might imagine reads like the most selfish introspection, from the non-religious point of view.

You have done the same yourself. Why would you expect me to have respect for the christian concept of sin? Can you not justify your ethics on universal grounds? If not, what value is there in spouting them to those who do not share your delusion?

The love you preach is conditional. That may or may not be the intention, but in so many cases it turns out to be the reality.

Stuart

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 13 2009,17:39)

WorshippingJesus wrote: Quote Your attacks on Christianity are entirely unmerited and based on the sins of men who acted out terrible things in the name of Christianity in the middle ages! And: Quote I see, so you steriotype all of Christianity because of a few random acts that appose the teachings of the NT scriptures? The history of Christian violence is not confined to a few random acts or the middle ages. Quote 314AD Immediately after its full legalization, the Christian Church attacks non-Christians. The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis. 324AD The emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire. In Dydima, Minor Asia, he sacks the Oracle of the god Apollo and tortures the pagan priests to death. He also evicts all non-Christian peoples from Mount Athos and destroys all the local Hellenic temples. 335AD Constantine sacks many pagan temples in Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers.”  Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatrus. 341AD Constantius II (Flavius Julius Constantius) persecutes “all the soothsayers and the Hellenists.” Many gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed. 346AD New large scale persecutions against non-Christian peoples in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as a “magician”. 353AD An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifice and “idols”. 354AD A new edict orders the closing of all the pagan temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Execution of pagan priests begins. A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the pagan temples and the execution of all “idolaters”. First burning of libraries in various cities of the empire. The first lime factories are organized next to the closed pagan temples. A major part of the holy architecture of the pagans is turned into lime. 357AD Constantius outlaws all methods of divination (astrology not excluded). 359AD In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organize the first death camps for the torture and executions of the arrested non-Christians from all around the empire. 361 to 363AD Religious tolerance and restoration of the pagan cults is declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the pagan emperor Julian (Flavius Claudius Julianus). 363AD Assassination of Julian (26th June).  (See previous entry for the significance of this event.) 364AD Emperor Jovian orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all those that worship their ancestral gods or practice divination (“sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi curiositas”). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of the pagan temples and the death penalty for participation in pagan rituals, even private ones. The Church Council of Laodicea (Phrygia – western Asia Minor) orders that religious observances are to be conducted on Sunday and not on Saturday. Sunday becomes the new Sabbath. The practice of staying at home and resting on Saturday declared sinful and anathema to Christ. 365 An imperial edict from Emperor Valens, a zealous Arian Christian (17th November), forbids pagan officers of the army to command Christian soldiers. 370AD Valens orders a tremendous persecution of non-Christian peoples in all the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other non-Christians, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed.  The philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated. All the friends of Julian are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.). Tons of books are burnt in the squares of the cities of the Eastern Empire. 372AD Valens orders the governor of Minor Asia to exterminate all the Hellenes and all documents of their wisdom. 373AD New prohibition of all divination methods is issued. The term “pagan” (pagani, villagers, equivalent to the modern insult, “peasants”) is introduced by the Christians to demean non-believers. 375AD The temple of Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down by the Christians. … For the entire list, go here. Make no mistake.  This was all done with the blessing of the Church.  Christians wasted no time, once in power, in the pursuit of persecuting the same people who they complained had persecuted them. Christian violence is a reflection of the degree to which Christians hold power in a given society.  Can you name a Christian nation that was dominated by openly religious leaders, (i.e. no separation of church and state), that wasn't violent towards non-Christians?

You just proved my point!

Not a single example or any shred of evidence that the early 1st century Christian Church committed acts of violence against any part of humanity.

The best historical record we have of that is the NT scriptures!

Please show me some examples there. All you have done is shown what religious men have done in contrast to what the scriptures teach!

Heck, you can find the same thing happening in all religions, the Muslim terrorist is a good example!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 14 2009,00:24)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2009,07:49) Stu Quote (Stu @ Aug. 13 2009,15:17) Ideas can be adopted and discarded.  I am suggesting that your brain is in need of clearing out of ideas that are clearly unpleasant and cause pain for other people when expressed. Your post are not suggestions, but simply attacks and patronizing! You just simply call people “idiots”, “Ignorant”, “brainless', and “Stupid” as you proceed to tell them that what they believe is “insidious” and is “Brutal”, yet you have no proof that Christians live that way, not now and not in the NT Church! Your attacks on Christianity are entirely unmerited and based on the sins of men who acted out terrible things in the name of Christianity in the middle ages! Again, there is a NT that teaches men to Love all men, but yet preach against all unrighteousness and sin which I would bet that most of what we believe as Immoral you believe the same! WJ Can you show me a single post where I have called a specific person here any of those names? You should pay more attention: I play the ball not the man. I think I have justified my descriptions of christianity and I don't think I have read any really good rebuttals.  Mostly I just get scripture quoted at me, which you might imagine reads like the most selfish introspection, from the non-religious point of view. You have done the same yourself.  Why would you expect me to have respect for the christian concept of sin?  Can you not justify your ethics on universal grounds?  If not, what value is there in spouting them to those who do not share your delusion? The love you preach is conditional.  That may or may not be the intention, but in so many cases it turns out to be the reality. Stuart

Hi Stu

Yes you are an expert at playing that ball. From where I am standing it looks like an evil pitcher throwing a fast ball at the head of the batter as he looks down to tap his shoe with his bat!

A smooth talker who has nothing to do in life but hang around a Christian forum and spew out all kinds of sickening words from a twisted belief system that is open to what ever feels good, then just do it!

All the while hiding under the guise of doing it for the good of humanity, when in reality it is only an evil desire to tear down some one elses belief system, based on a belief system where there is no such thing as God, which by the way you have that right, but you have no right to act as if your actions are any more noble than others here!

And then the hypocrosy of it all is to pretend that to silence someone who believes in God is a good thing, while at the same time promoting the evil, and immoral and discusting actions of homosexuality as being a good thing, then condemning those who preach against it as being “Brute”, and “insideous” as well as desireing to silence them! Yet I have not heard a word about the Gay community trying to force the Boy Scouts to accept their lifestyle.

Obviously the fruit of atheism is one of complete intolorance and disrespect and disdain for the belief of those on a board like this that promotes good and love for their fellow man.

Get real stu, and get off your high horse, for you are not a better piece of humanity than anyone else here, though in your own eyes you think you are!

WJ

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 08 2009,07:30)

Paladin, So the question remains: Was the ingestion of shellfish ever evil?

How exactly would you define the word evil, What is True?

The Ancient Hebrew Research Center defines the transliterated Hebrew word Ra`, to be defined as meaning dysfunctional. The King James bible translates the word Ra’ as evil 442 times, wickedness 59, and wicked 25. Booo!

My understanding of YHWH my Creator, is that He is the designer of highly complex and sophisticated systems that function under great order and precision. Of course when He introduced death with it’s deterioration process, many created systems of supreme functioning gave way to processes of dysfunction and destruction.

YHWH as our Designer knows the best way for mankind to function as a whole and as individuals. Righteousness is the equation of which man needs within himself to be of supreme functioning.  

My understanding is that YHWH has complete control over mankind, we are easily influenced and  manipulated little creatures.  If you’ve ever read Guns Germs and Steele, by Jared Diamond and kept YHWH in mind with what scripture tells us, it gives you a very interesting perspective on life. YHWH as our Creator and the person of which controls such things as weather, natural resources and intelligence, you could easily see exactly how YHWH has CAUSED everything in history to come about.  Man to YHWH is so ridiculously predictable it’s truly rather pathetic.

Back to the question, why the meat laws?

Eating certain foods during that time period would have had to have created some sort of dysfunction for the developing nation and people of Israel.

It seems clear that YHWH wanted to keep the Israelites away from pagan nations.  Possible that maybe  YHWH gave the Israelites rules that would distinguish them from the pagans. Laws and Rituals unlike those of the pagans that would work to keep Israelites separate from other cultures? Human nature reflects the disposition to stay close to your own kind out of ignorance and fear.  If YHWH wanted to keep the Hebrews isolated, giving them culturally unusual laws and rituals would certainly do that.

It would have been dysfunctional to the developing nation of Israel if they would have mingled with the surrounding pagan cultures. Pagans had unusual customs themselves developed through ignorance and superstition. Speaking from the viewpoint that YHWH is true, another possibility is that the pagan rituals done for their false gods contained certain foods, and therefore by YHWH making those foods unclean He would be further deterring the Israelites from worshipping those false gods, which of course worshiping those false gods would be dysfunctional.  

Another idea is that maybe the food laws were set in place because the meat was truly unclean at that time. Maybe YHWH was using germs in food to control the population of outside nations, so He didn’t want the Israelites to eat them.   Having a nation that is suppose to be growing and thriving will not occur if everyone is eating tainted meat!

An Israelite not following the food law at that time would clearly not be trusting in YHWH, and YHWH’s purpose is always under a purpose of creating function, therefore IMO it does not really make the person eating selfish evil, it just makes them stupid for not trusting in YHWH!! …….and acting stupid is always rather dysfunctional.

[Stu]

WJ your question, from the top of the page has morphed this way and that as you dodge the bullets.

It was, originally: Do you see Judeo Christians killing gays?

Since you put great store in anecdotal types of evidence, here are a couple I cribbed from the net:

In July 1999, Matthew Williams and his brother, Tyler, murdered a gay couple, Gary Matson and Winfield Mowder, in their home near Sacramento, California. Speaking to his mother from the Shasta County jail, Matthew explained his actions in this way: “I had to obey God's law rather than man's law,” he said. “I didn't want to do this. I felt I was supposed to. I have followed a higher law… I just plan to defend myself from the Scriptures.”

After Matthew Shepard was killed in 1998, a pastor in North Carolina published an open letter regarding the trial of Aaron McKinney that read: “Gays are under the death penalty. His blood is guilty before God (Lev. 20:13). If a person kills a gay, the gay's blood is upon the gay and not upon the hands of the person doing the killing. The acts of gays are so abominable to God. His Word is there and we can't change it.

It would seem that most violence against homosexuals is perpetrated by neo-nazis or other far-right hate merchants, but like islamic terrorists they take comfort from the homophobia of christian fundies.

By the way, regarding your reply “All you have done is shown what religious men have done in contrast to what the scriptures teach! to WIT above, so what? These are acts committed by christians based on what they believe their faith required them to do. They probably would have thought you were wrong to interpret scripture in the way you do.

Stuart

[Stu]

WJ

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A smooth talker

…or typer…

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who has nothing to do in life but hang around a Christian forum

…I have plenty to do, I’m just a fast worker!

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and spew out all kinds of sickening words

I’m glad you feel sickened. I imagine that is how gay people feel about your religiously motivated hatred.

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from a twisted belief system

Kettle, Pot, Black.

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that is open to what ever feels good, then just do it!

It feels good standing up for the rights of gay people to live without persecution by xenophobes and religious homophobes. If you think that is unethical then I do not think it is MY belief system that is twisted.

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All the while hiding under the guise of doing it for the good of humanity,

Yes, a claim I cannot see you making with any credibility.

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when in reality it is only an evil desire to tear down some one elses belief system, based on a belief system where there is no such thing as God,

There is no such think as a god, most such belief systems commit what they call evil most on their adherents. At the very least it is intellectual abuse of the believer, and christianity is the worst at that.

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which by the way you have that right, but you have no right to act as if your actions are any more noble than others here!

Explain why it is not noble to stand up for others against real and damaging agressors.

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And then the hypocrosy of it all is to pretend that to silence someone who believes in God is a good thing,

You have the right to free speech as do I. How is anyone trying to silence you? You may feel that you should silence yourself after it is pointed out how unfortunate are the ideas you hold, but that is not the same thing.

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while at the same time promoting the evil, and immoral and discusting actions of homosexuality

You characterise a loving relationship between two humans as evil, immoral and disgusting. And you wonder why some would want to ‘tear down your belief system’!

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as being a good thing, then condemning those who preach against it as being “Brute”, and “insideous” as well as desireing to silence them!

They are those things, although I did spell insidious correctly. Not silencing, just wanting them to use the underemployed wrinkly think they keep between their ears, especially the parts responsible for empathy.

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Yet I have not heard a word about the Gay community trying to force the Boy Scouts to accept their lifestyle.

You think gay people want to make the boy scouts into an organisation in which homosexuality is compulsory? Good grief, most of its members have not even reached puberty!

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Obviously the fruit of atheism is one of complete intolorance and disrespect and disdain for the belief of those on a board like this that promotes good and love for their fellow man.

Cough! How far did your nose grow when you typed that? I nearly choked on my drink reading it!

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Get real stu, and get off your high horse, for you are not a better piece of humanity than anyone else here, though in your own eyes you think you are!

I think in others’ eyes too it is the right thing to oppose religious persecution. If you were being persecuted I would stand up for your rights too. But you are not the persecutee, you are the persecutor.

Do you have anything more than unsubstantiated ad homs and strawmen of atheism?

Stuart

[Cato]

I think it is not a matter of trusting God, for I most certainly do. What I don't trust is people or books that tell me what God's will is. I don't trust that creator of the entire universe would have a favorite people (conveniently the people who wrote the scripture in the first place) much less be concerned with minor dietary habits. People accept scripture as such because they were raised that way and told not to question God, Just like all the good people throughout the Islamic world are taught to accept the Koran as God's word.

[Paladin]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 12 2009,13:45)

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 12 2009,05:29) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 11 2009,14:21) Paladin, I guess this is a case of not defining terms.  Let me illustrate it this way. If I tell my three year old not to eat any cookies before dinner, there is a clear reason behind it.  I don't want him to fill up on junk, or overload on sugar.  But, if, when he gets his dinner, I tell him not to eat any of the food that is on the top left corner of his plate – or he will forfeit his whole dinner – I think that most people would find it extremely petty of me to even think of enforcing such a rule.  It would certainly test his obedience, but it would merely represent a potential stumbling block on his way to eating a full meal. It's a rule that serves no other purpose than to give him another way to disobey me.  What would you call it? Completely misses the point of my post. If you and your three year old come to the table to form up some rules of agreement, the result of which is that you will gove him certain priveleges not given to other children of normal households, but which are to be special to your household; and if in this agreement, you list punishments for going back on the agreement, and they are written in terms he can understand, like “time out” or “toys taken away,” etc., and he is capable of understanding the meaning of agreement, and you both enter into the agreement after the terms are listed, if he understands the significance of not eating from one quarter of his plate, and agrees to it, there will be no problem of his making; Unless and until you change either the rules, or the diet, or the plate, without considering his side of the agreement. This is not a case of God enlisting children in an agreement. He did not hold anyone under the age of twenty, accountable to the terms of the covenant. They were all adults what heard the terms of Covenant, agreed to the terms of Covenant, and entered into Covenant with God. While I like your analogy using children, it is innappropriate to the illustration precisely BECAUSE God did not deal with children in forming his covenant. He dealt with adults who had the capacity to understand and make agreements. It would be like the difference between you and I making an agreement, with advantages to each of us for making covenant, and disadvantages if either of us broke covenant; and the same thing happening between myself and your three year old child. It would be unfair to expect your child to accept the consequences of a covenant not understood by him due to lack of experience, or lack of expertise in adult thinking. Leave out the three year old, consider adult decision making, and adult understanding of consequences, and you will begin to see what really is being considered. Good point, but you are factually incorrect. Deuteronomy 29:14-15: “I make this covenant and this oath, not with you alone, but with him who stands here with us today before the LORD our God, as well as with him who is not here with us today… .“ Deuteronomy 32:46: “…Set your hearts on all the words which I testify among you today, which you shall command your children to be careful to observe—all the words of this law.“ What you describe is an individual agreement entered into by consenting individuals, but the old covenant was entered into by a portion of one generation of a people and imposed on all peoples of the current and subsequent generations.  It would be like getting one son to agree to the special rules, and then imposing those rules on all of his siblings whether or not they agreed. Furthermore, read Exodus.  Not even the first generation of the “covenant makers” had much of choice.  God extorted agreement from them by threatening punishment for non-compliance. Exodus 12:12-14: “For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.  Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.” In context, he is basically saying, “Do as I say, or I will kill your firstborn.”  Up to that point, no one had agreed to anything, but there was already a threat of punishment for not following the rules.  Once they were out in the desert, which was by God's command, they were a captive audience whose very lives depended upon miraculous intervention. Under such circumstances, in a modern day court, any agreements made would be considered coerced and invalid.  The generation that stood up and “took the oath” was one that had seen God slaughter a number of people for disobeying him, so they were in no better of a position to make a voluntary agreement than the ones who had recently left Egypt. Do you dispute this history? If not, then we can get back to my question about what you would call a law that served no other purpose than to potentially trip up anyone subject to that law.

What history? What you have presented is certainly not history. It is a corrupted account of what really happened.

To correct your ignorance would require a much longer post than I care to entertain here and now.

Suffice it to say you have mixed and matched different situations as though they are one, and it would take many corrective references to straighten out the mess you have made of the scriptures.

I might post a correction at some later date, but I feel it would be wasted here.

[Author]

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