Homosexuality

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ July 30 2009,09:40)

Quote (Paladin @ July 30 2009,04:17)

Quote (thethinker @ July 30 2009,03:53)

Quote (Paladin @ July 30 2009,00:00)

Quote (thethinker @ July 29 2009,10:59)

Quote (TimothyVI @ July 29 2009,05:39)

Quote (thethinker @ July 27 2009,19:24)

Homosexuals prey on little boys in Italy.

thinker

Priests prey on little boys the world over.
What was your point?

Tim

Apparently you have not been following the thread. Stu made the outrageous statement that homosexuality has no victims inferring that all homosexual sex is consentual. I cited anecdotal evidence to the contrary and added that homosexuals were the first sexual predators in human history. Not that this makes them worse as predators. Just the first predators known to mankind. I just wanted to help Stu get out of fantasy land.

thinker (P)

I think your choice of words needs tweaked just a little, because the “first predator known to mankind, was Cain, who murdered his brother able. There is no reference to other kinds of predation prior to this event.

As for “Stu's fantasy land,” I have to take Stu's side on this one. Not that he is right, but that his experiences differ from yours or mine. And his perceptions will also differ. That does not make them “fantassy” except from our own perspective of experience and interpretation of experiences.

That is really what his side of this debate is all about. He has contributed nothing to the understanding of homosexuality, which is what the thread began with, but has contributed to the disagreement over the meaning of terminology, rather than issues raised in the OP.

In THAT, YOU are correct, but it should be recognized that you and he are not talking about the same things.

(WJ) You have not been following the thread either. I said that homosexuals were the first sexual predators. And Stu said that homosexuality has no victims. This is his fantasy land.

thinker

Actually, what you said was

Quote

homosexuals were the first sexual predators in human history. Not that this makes them worse as predators. Just the first predators known to mankind

I pointed out that homosexual predators were not the “first predators known to mankind.”

Do you actually READ what you post?

Also, YOU are correct on the “victim” concept. In my opinion EVERY CRIME has a victim. And “Crime” is not limited to those concepts and practices men sometimes get around to passing laws about. Sometimes “Crimes” are defined so by the words of God.

I SAID THAT HOMOSEXUALS WERE THE FIRST SEXUAL PREDATORS IN HUMAN HISTORY! :angry:

thinker

I really don't know why I keep trying to keep you honest. Is it really worth it? Don't know, but here goes…

Quote

I SAID THAT HOMOSEXUALS WERE THE FIRST SEXUAL PREDATORS IN HUMAN HISTORY!

:angry:

Right! Then “I” pointed out the rest of the sentence in which YOU ALSO SAID

Quote

Not that this makes them worse as predators. JUST THE FIRST PREDATORS KNOWN TO MANKIND

Why are you getting angry at YOUR OWN WORDS?

July 31, 2009 at 9:45 am#139666

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ July 30 2009,09:47)

TO PALADIN:
Below is the original discourse which you apparently missed. At the end I said that homosexuals were the first SEXUAL predators.

Quote (kejonn @ July 28 2009,23:19)

Quote (thethinker @ July 27 2009,13:34)

But read Stu's post again. In context he was inferring that all homosexual sex is consentual.

thinker

Sorry, but you are flat out wrong. I read all of Stu's posts on the prior page where he mentions that homosexuality does not have victims. In context, he was referring to consensual sex between adults. He also mentioned pedophilia and bestiality as having victims because in those acts, the children and animals are not able to give consent. A child might consent, but is too young to make such decisions for many reasons.

You simply see what you want to see due to your preconceptions.

Stu said that beastiality and pedophilia have victims. “Homosexuality does not.” Stu infers that all homosexual sex is consentual. How could he say it has no victims? It appears that you secularists have a problem with clarity in your use of language.

Btw, homosexuals are the first sexual predators to appear in human history.

thinker

Don't you understand thinker, that if you post a remark, and it doesn't get a response, and you post it again but add to it, the second remark is the most likely to earn a responce?

It doesn't even matter what your original remark was, because it was not your original remark I responded to, was it?

I responded to the remark as quoted, and you are simply trying to re-establish your original instead of aknowledging the alterred repeat.

Nothing wrong with that, but why the anger? I only quoted your own words. That doesn't make you a bad guy. That makes you a guy that posted twice. It doesn't MATTER that you also or first posted it a different way. That is not going to change how you posted it the second time.

July 31, 2009 at 1:18 pm#139674

theodorej

Participant

Greetings…..What is the point…Is it that essential that we be able to trace back the origins of deviet behavior whether it physical in the form of Homosexuality or Murder….This behavior is abhorant before God and needs to be repented of…I would think the first predetor was Cain…Sexual predetors are more prevelent today because of our tacit exceptance of the Homosexual lifestyle and the various forms of deviet behavior it incourages…..This is a personal sin and does not need celebrity..

July 31, 2009 at 2:42 pm#139680

Cato

Participant

You know I find it quite odd that I, whom my own family thinks is old fashioned and mildly homophobic, (because it has a large yuck factor with me) should find myself having to defend gays.

First of all homosexuality and sexual predation are different subjects for those who hurt or abuse others are found clearly in both homo and hetero orientations.

Intellectually I find it hard to imaging that having romantic/sexual attraction to the same sex is any more or less evil then it would be for the opposite sex in the same situations.

Despite what is said here, I think sexual orientation has a strong and even predominate biological foundation (this covers genetic and hormonal development before birth). To those who say it is a sin of temptation come on, I have been tempted by many sins, but wanting another man has never crossed my mind. For those who think such maybe they have some repressed desires themselves and socially can't accept it so it is easier to blame Satan then to admit it may be internal.

As far as Christian scripture yes it is clear that homosexual relations are banned and even punishable by death along with a host of other offenses. Leviticus even prohibits sex with your own wife during her period. The problem I have here is that scripture by itself is so full of outdated mandates it is difficult to know what is divine and what is merely ancient prejudices or fears. Take for instance woman captured in battle, Deut 21:11 “if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife.” Or stoning rebellious children Deut 21:20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. How many folks today believe their first born sons should get a bigger share of their estates then their other children or follow precepts on clean and unclean foods? This is why I look at scripture with a critical eye.

Outside of scripture I think it is hard to justify our prejudices against homosexuals (yes I have them too) for their orientations alone. Sexual good or evil comes from how we treat and respect others.

July 31, 2009 at 6:13 pm#139729

TimothyVI

Participant

I have some very good male friends who happen to be homosexual.
Because of the way that I was raised, they know I am uncomfortable actually
seeing them show physical affection. That of course is my problem, not theirs, but they respect my
feelings and do not hold hands or kiss or even act especially close while in my presence. They are not hiding the fact that they are homosexual, just respecting my feelings.

It is hard to overcome predjudices that you are raised with. And I was always told that it was
a dirty, nasty sin to be a homosexual, by the same people that completely overlooked all of the other sins in the same bible of which they were guilty.

That being said, I am particularly inspired by Catos philosophy.

Tim

July 31, 2009 at 8:08 pm#139738

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Cato @ July 31 2009,10:42)

You know I find it quite odd that I, whom my own family thinks is old fashioned and mildly homophobic, (because it has a large yuck factor with me) should find myself having to defend gays.

First of all homosexuality and sexual predation are different subjects for those who hurt or abuse others are found clearly in both homo and hetero orientations.

Intellectually I find it hard to imaging that having romantic/sexual attraction to the same sex is any more or less evil then it would be for the opposite sex in the same situations.

Hi Cato

Quote (Cato @ July 31 2009,10:42)

For those who think such maybe they have some repressed desires themselves and socially can't accept it so it is easier to blame Satan then to admit it may be internal.

But if what you are saying is true here, which I believe it is then that is proof that is a mater of choice and not genetic.

To imply that homosexualism is genetic and yet some are more prone than others is pure speculation at best and is proof that it is a matter of choice!

July 31, 2009 at 8:11 pm#139740

Participant

Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 01 2009,06:13)

That being said, I am particularly inspired by Catos philosophy.

Tim

I understand Cato's philosophy very well, but the thread is concerned with whether or not scripture actually takes a stand on the issue, and if so, what that stand is.

I would not even have posted it except the metropolitan Community Church in a prominent community in California, says the scriptures have been twisted by Christians to condemn a practice which is actually temple cult worship in the bible. And that there isnothing inherently wrong with the practice, regardless of the fact it is everywhere spoken against.

Then this week I see in the newspaper that the Episcopalian church is “focused on same-sex unions.” I feel it is time to take another look at the book.

The philosophy of Cato is fine for the sons of Adam, but not for the children of God.

July 31, 2009 at 11:58 pm#139779

Cato

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 01 2009,08:11)

The philosophy of Cato is fine for the sons of Adam, but not for the children of God.

Yes I know this was meant as a bit of drama, meaning my beliefs are for the earthly and not for the holy. Yet when were the sons of Adam not also children of God? Again you assume that God's word is inseparable from Biblical scripture while I assert that scripture is too flawed to be trusted as the final word. Yes I suppose I am a heretic in this, for I look to reason, logic and sometimes intuition for answers. Apart from scripture can you truly say that two consenting adults who love one another are wrong to express this physically in the privacy of their own homes? In some ways at least, for two males, the thought is personally revolting yet I feel I am more a child of God when I can overcome this and accept these people for what they are without judgment.

August 1, 2009 at 1:34 am#139783

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 01 2009,06:13)

That being said, I am particularly inspired by Catos philosophy.

Tim

Amen. And put me down for one inspired by Cato, as well.

Love,
Mandy

August 1, 2009 at 12:28 pm#139824

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 01 2009,08:08)

Quote (Cato @ July 31 2009,10:42)

You know I find it quite odd that I, whom my own family thinks is old fashioned and mildly homophobic, (because it has a large yuck factor with me) should find myself having to defend gays.

First of all homosexuality and sexual predation are different subjects for those who hurt or abuse others are found clearly in both homo and hetero orientations.

Intellectually I find it hard to imaging that having romantic/sexual attraction to the same sex is any more or less evil then it would be for the opposite sex in the same situations.

Hi Cato

Quote (Cato @ July 31 2009,10:42)

For those who think such maybe they have some repressed desires themselves and socially can't accept it so it is easier to blame Satan then to admit it may be internal.

But if what you are saying is true here, which I believe it is then that is proof that is a mater of choice and not genetic.

To imply that homosexualism is genetic and yet some are more prone than others is pure speculation at best and is proof that it is a matter of choice!

So, again, why are you so exercised by it?

While your own experience surely tells you that you could not change your own sexual orientation and therefore it is absurd to claim that others make choices when clearly you could not, What blind difference does it make if homosexuality is ENTIRELY by choice?

Why should people pay any attention at all to your proclamations from your book of spells, that illegally incites people to homicide?

Thank goodness the christian church is politically toothless in most Western countries today. Its ideology can be confined to the loony bin without christians using political sway to persecute those not similarly deluded to themselves.

Stuart

August 1, 2009 at 12:30 pm#139825

Participant

Does thinker actually have an example of how homosexuality has victims, that does not generally also apply to heterosexuality? Most sexual predators are straight.

Stuart

August 1, 2009 at 12:39 pm#139828

Participant

Quote (theodorej @ Aug. 01 2009,01:18)

theodorej sexual predators are generally not homosexual.

Stuart

August 2, 2009 at 12:21 pm#139892

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 02 2009,00:30)

Does thinker actually have an example of how homosexuality has victims, that does not generally also apply to heterosexuality? Most sexual predators are straight.

Stuart

You know these guys do you? You took a poll? Read a book? On what do you base such a statement?

August 2, 2009 at 6:27 pm#139901

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 03 2009,00:21)

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 02 2009,00:30)

Does thinker actually have an example of how homosexuality has victims, that does not generally also apply to heterosexuality? Most sexual predators are straight.

Stuart

You know these guys do you? You took a poll? Read a book? On what do you base such a statement?

I know just by paying attention!

And by the obvious fact that by far most people are not gay.

Stuart

August 3, 2009 at 1:03 pm#139949

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 03 2009,06:27)

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 03 2009,00:21)

Quote (Stu @ Aug. 02 2009,00:30)

Does thinker actually have an example of how homosexuality has victims, that does not generally also apply to heterosexuality? Most sexual predators are straight.

Stuart

You know these guys do you? You took a poll? Read a book? On what do you base such a statement?

I know just by paying attention!

And by the obvious fact that by far most people are not gay.

Stuart

Ahhh!!!

Yes!

An OPINION poll.

The ONE that counts!

YOURS!

August 3, 2009 at 4:54 pm#139961

Participant

Stu said:

Quote

Does thinker actually have an example of how homosexuality has victims, that does not generally also apply to heterosexuality? Most sexual predators are straight

How many victims must homosexuality need to have before you will admit that homosexuality also has its predators and its victims?

I did see a newscast once that was about organized crime by homosexuals against young boys in Italy. So it doesn't matter which predator takes the most victims. If homosexuals engage in organized crimes against young boys then the number of victims by homosexuals represent much more than anecdotal examples. Homosexuality just as any other takes one too many victims. Wake up dude!

thinker

August 3, 2009 at 5:32 pm#139967

Participant

Stu said:

Quote

Does thinker actually have an example of how homosexuality has victims, that does not generally also apply to heterosexuality? Most sexual predators are straight

I have already provided examples.
1. I personally know a man who was in jail who was ganged up on by homosexuals for a piece of ___.

2. I have have a friend who knows a college student who was sedated and while sleeping his homosexual roommate helped himself.

3. I have another friend whose young son had problems with homosexuals sexually harassing him.

4. A homosexual predator who once lived in my neighborhood sexually molested the young boy of his neighbor across the street. That boy began to do the same thing and it has destroyed his family.

Again I ask you: What world are you living in?

thinker

August 3, 2009 at 5:37 pm#139968

Participant

Stu said:

Quote

Most sexual predators are straight.

Could it be that Stu thinks that most sexual predators are “straight” because the homosexual friendly media does not report their sins so much? I saw a newscast about homosexual predators on a Christian news station. But secularist Oprah Winfrey talks only about hetero-sexual predators.

thinker

August 3, 2009 at 5:53 pm#139970

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 03 2009,13:32)

Stu said:

Quote

Does thinker actually have an example of how homosexuality has victims, that does not generally also apply to heterosexuality? Most sexual predators are straight

I have already provided examples.
1. I personally know a man who was in jail who was ganged up on by homosexuals for a piece of ___.

2. I have have a friend who knows a college student who was sedated and while sleeping his homosexual roommate helped himself.

3. I have a friend whose young son had problems with homosexuals sexually harassing him.

4. A homosexual predator who once lived in my neighborhood sexually molested the young boy of his neighbor across the street. That boy began to do the same thing and it has destroyed his family.

Again I ask you: What world are you living in?

thinker

Hi Thinker

I personally was approached by gay men several times in my life as a young Kid between the ages of 12-16. I told them to get lost.

I know a guy who was Molested at 16 by a 52 year old man while he was asleep after the man got him drunk with mixed drinks untill he passed out. The guy woke up with the man stradling his face. Thats as graphic as I want to get here.

August 3, 2009 at 6:17 pm#139971