- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Douglas @ July 18 2009,06:37) Quote (amosbug @ July 18 2009,04:48) Quote (Douglas @ July 18 2009,03:08) Quote (Cindy @ July 18 2009,02:04) Quote (Douglas @ July 16 2009,10:13) Quote (seekingtruth @ July 13 2009,13:36) I've always been intrigued with the last days and open to speculation as long as it remains speculation. Many have been ruined by dogmatic interpretations which once unfulfilled leave those expecting, disappointed and discouraged.
At this point in time, I don't think you need consult a bible to get an idea of the shape of things to come (I don't and wouldn't). The shape of things to come, for any who have open eyes and a rational mind is pretty clear to see. There probably isn't even that long to wait, in my opinion.That said, the probability is that it's only the last days for most people, so does that count?
Douglas I can't believe that a so called Christian is telling someone not to consult the Bible! You mist not think that the Bible is the word of God! If you would know Ancient History, you would see how events have come true, that were written in that Bible. You are starving if you don't read the Bible and don't even know it. All I can say to you, I am glad you are not my Husband.
Irene
Whoa, have I claimed to be Christian? Technically my parents had me baptised and tried to have me indoctrinated into , but I'd say overall it all failed.I wouldn't say not to read the bible – I have a couple of times (all of it) – and it's interesting even to me (not because I regard it as the word of god though, since if it is, there's a lot of clutter too).
I'd say that when the “end” comes, it won't be the best guide as to how to proceed – in my humble opinion. Certainly it may contain useful beliefs, but I don't see the roadmap to survival in it, I'm afraid to say.
In my opinion there are more direct ways to get at the word of god.
Oh, and for what it's worth my opinion is that there are sections of the Bible that were predicted to people in advance by God and that did go on to happen (a few examples) I can bring to mind:
– the great flood, with Noah
– the destruction of Sodom and Gomorra
– the plagues of Egypt (some at least)Now, let us suppose there is another such communication from God – relating to the not so distant future – reasonably supported by researching what is real and known to modern day human knowledge. If those events come to pass, the vast majority of all people – including those on this site – will perish.
I say it could be real, and I have to act on that basis.
What do you say?
Douglas,Obviously you couldn't accept Roman Catholicism…you seem to be a very smart and logical person and if you look at religion from a “logic” standpoint it will never stand…That is what I did for a long time because of my experiences with Protistant churches and people. I had a lot of fights with my mother who kept telling me to turn to God and the Bible but it just didn't do for me what it did for her. You can not make yourself feel something you don't or believe something you do not believe- no matter how much you want to or how much easier it would be to just give in, because logic won't let you.
I really began to notice a few years back how things were changing on this earth…and what came back to me was a lot of the things I rembered about Bible prophecy. No matter how much I didn't want it to be true, logic told me it couldn't be a conwincidence.
I think it is really good that you have read the Bible, and more than once…I think if you are going to talk about the Bible (for or against it) you should be required to actually read it. We can not blame each other for how we feel about the Bible when we read it for ourselfs…You can only feel and understand what God allows you too, and this has nothing to do with logic or intellect…When I started reading the Bible again last year, I really tried to have an open mind. I tried to block all of those things that eveyone told me was true about the Bible and asked God if he was listening, to help me understand what is not humanly imaginable.
Amy
My personal opinion is that the organised religions are human structures, emerging from our basic imperative to organise ourselves into a tribal pyramid type structure. Unfortunately once such a structure is created large part of it's function revolves around establishing and promoting itself, with the loss of focus of it's theoretical role – as true of government as religion to my mind.Things on the planet are changing, but nothing has happened of note yet compared to what will happen. There are good solid scientific reasons for the changes, but nonetheless they are happening. Logic and research is sufficient to get a good picture of what will happen – but I also happen to have received (through another person) communication from god relating to timescale and my personal responsibilities.
From a logical point of view a couple of years ago the whole thing initially seemed fantastically improbable, but now seems increasingly convincing.
My main issue with the bible here is that it comes nowhere near the standard of my other data sources. Too easy to get hung up on which trumpet has “sounded” and on trying to make it fit actual events – bearing in mind if it was a prophecy you wouldn't necessarily know which things had happened around the world or which parts they referred to.
Douglas! You are the most confusing person that I have come across with.
You say, you have another source of information, other then the Bible. And you do not care to disclose that?
You do not trust the Bible, am I reading that right?
I do agree about organized religion. Rev. talks plenty about them.
My Husband and I fellowship with our Heavenly Father and Christ His Son. But we have no other source about God, then the Bible.Quote (Cindy @ July 18 2009,07:23) Quote You say, you have another source of information, other then the Bible. And you do not care to disclose that? God.
At least, that's what the person from whom I get the messages (and relay back questions through) identifies the source as.Quote You do not trust the Bible, am I reading that right? Not as simple as that. I don't blindly place faith in it, true. However some parts of it seem to tie into archaelogical history nicely, so it can't be entirely discounted. It can be dangerous to read too much into it in my opinion (for example blaming women for Eve's actions in Genesis?)
Quote I do agree about organized religion. Rev. talks plenty about them.
My Husband and I fellowship with our Heavenly Father and Christ His Son. But we have no other source about God, then the Bible.If one accepts the premise God communicated with people in the bible (e.g. Noah), is it unreasonable to suppose God could still communicate (directly) with some individuals?
Actually that – and Google – is what brought me to this site.So can the Bible prove that Jesus in your opinion is the Son of God? Can the Bible prove that Jesus preexisted His birth as a man? The Bible taught me to prove all things, so I do not blindly except all things. Nobody should. But I also believe that in general the Bible is true. If you study History and Ancient History, like my Husband has it is. There are a few errors because of the Catholic Church's doctrine. And out of it came all other denominations. So do you have another explanation why Woman birth Children in pain? Why is there pain at all? Do you believe in a Satan? John tells us if we believe that we do not sin, the truth is not in us. The penalty for sin is death. Do you believe that? And who is the Author of sin? I could ask more, but for now it is enough.
Yes, lots of Questions.
IreneQuote (Douglas @ July 18 2009,08:01) Cindy,July wrote:[/quote]
Quote You say, you have another source of information, other then the Bible. And you do not care to disclose that? God.
At least, that's what the person from whom I get the messages (and relay back questions through) identifies the source as.Quote You do not trust the Bible, am I reading that right? Not as simple as that. I don't blindly place faith in it, true. However some parts of it seem to tie into archaelogical history nicely, so it can't be entirely discounted. It can be dangerous to read too much into it in my opinion (for example blaming women for Eve's actions in Genesis?)
Quote I do agree about organized religion. Rev. talks plenty about them.
My Husband and I fellowship with our Heavenly Father and Christ His Son. But we have no other source about God, then the Bible.If one accepts the premise God communicated with people in the bible (e.g. Noah), is it unreasonable to suppose God could still communicate (directly) with some individuals?
Actually that – and Google – is what brought me to this site.
Douglas,I am just wondering if you are going to share what exactly you mean?
Our Creator can talk to us in many ways…Do you feel like you are receiving a special message? If so are you posting these things for a reason?
Amy
Quote (Douglas @ July 17 2009,14:37) Quote (amosbug @ July 18 2009,04:48) Quote (Douglas @ July 18 2009,03:08) Quote (Cindy @ July 18 2009,02:04) Quote (Douglas @ July 16 2009,10:13) Quote (seekingtruth @ July 13 2009,13:36) I've always been intrigued with the last days and open to speculation as long as it remains speculation. Many have been ruined by dogmatic interpretations which once unfulfilled leave those expecting, disappointed and discouraged.
At this point in time, I don't think you need consult a bible to get an idea of the shape of things to come (I don't and wouldn't). The shape of things to come, for any who have open eyes and a rational mind is pretty clear to see. There probably isn't even that long to wait, in my opinion.That said, the probability is that it's only the last days for most people, so does that count?
Douglas I can't believe that a so called Christian is telling someone not to consult the Bible! You mist not think that the Bible is the word of God! If you would know Ancient History, you would see how events have come true, that were written in that Bible. You are starving if you don't read the Bible and don't even know it. All I can say to you, I am glad you are not my Husband.
Irene
Whoa, have I claimed to be Christian? Technically my parents had me baptised and tried to have me indoctrinated into , but I'd say overall it all failed.I wouldn't say not to read the bible – I have a couple of times (all of it) – and it's interesting even to me (not because I regard it as the word of god though, since if it is, there's a lot of clutter too).
I'd say that when the “end” comes, it won't be the best guide as to how to proceed – in my humble opinion. Certainly it may contain useful beliefs, but I don't see the roadmap to survival in it, I'm afraid to say.
In my opinion there are more direct ways to get at the word of god.
Oh, and for what it's worth my opinion is that there are sections of the Bible that were predicted to people in advance by God and that did go on to happen (a few examples) I can bring to mind:
– the great flood, with Noah
– the destruction of Sodom and Gomorra
– the plagues of Egypt (some at least)Now, let us suppose there is another such communication from God – relating to the not so distant future – reasonably supported by researching what is real and known to modern day human knowledge. If those events come to pass, the vast majority of all people – including those on this site – will perish.
I say it could be real, and I have to act on that basis.
What do you say?
Douglas,Obviously you couldn't accept Roman Catholicism…you seem to be a very smart and logical person and if you look at religion from a “logic” standpoint it will never stand…That is what I did for a long time because of my experiences with Protistant churches and people. I had a lot of fights with my mother who kept telling me to turn to God and the Bible but it just didn't do for me what it did for her. You can not make yourself feel something you don't or believe something you do not believe- no matter how much you want to or how much easier it would be to just give in, because logic won't let you.
I really began to notice a few years back how things were changing on this earth…and what came back to me was a lot of the things I rembered about Bible prophecy. No matter how much I didn't want it to be true, logic told me it couldn't be a conwincidence.
I think it is really good that you have read the Bible, and more than once…I think if you are going to talk about the Bible (for or against it) you should be required to actually read it. We can not blame each other for how we feel about the Bible when we read it for ourselfs…You can only feel and understand what God allows you too, and this has nothing to do with logic or intellect…When I started reading the Bible again last year, I really tried to have an open mind. I tried to block all of those things that eveyone told me was true about the Bible and asked God if he was listening, to help me understand what is not humanly imaginable.
Amy
My personal opinion is that the organised religions are human structures, emerging from our basic imperative to organise ourselves into a tribal pyramid type structure. Unfortunately once such a structure is created large part of it's function revolves around establishing and promoting itself, with the loss of focus of it's theoretical role – as true of government as religion to my mind.Things on the planet are changing, but nothing has happened of note yet compared to what will happen. There are good solid scientific reasons for the changes, but nonetheless they are happening. Logic and research is sufficient to get a good picture of what will happen – but I also happen to have received (through another person) communication from god relating to timescale and my personal responsibilities.
From a logical point of view a couple of years ago the whole thing initially seemed fantastically improbable, but now seems increasingly convincing.
My main issue with the bible here is that it comes nowhere near the standard of my other data sources. Too easy to get hung up on which trumpet has “sounded” and on trying to make it fit actual events – bearing in mind if it was a prophecy you wouldn't necessarily know which things had happened around the world or which parts they referred to.
Hi Douglas,
What does this mean…who did you hear something from, how did “God” tell them, and what did “God” tell them?Quote Things on the planet are changing, but nothing has happened of note yet compared to what will happen. There are good solid scientific reasons for the changes, but nonetheless they are happening. Logic and research is sufficient to get a good picture of what will happen – but I also happen to have received (through another person) communication from god relating to timescale and my personal responsibilities. Just curious,
KathiKathi and Amy! Douglas does not believe that all of the Bible is Gods Words. I believe that He is very confused. My last post to Hum He has not answered me yet. I hope He does, then I at least know what He is.
IreneQuote (Cindy @ July 18 2009,12:50) So can the Bible prove that Jesus in your opinion is the Son of God? Can the Bible prove that Jesus preexisted His birth as a man? The Bible taught me to prove all things, so I do not blindly except all things. Nobody should. But I also believe that in general the Bible is true. If you study History and Ancient History, like my Husband has it is. There are a few errors because of the Catholic Church's doctrine. And out of it came all other denominations. So do you have another explanation why Woman birth Children in pain? Why is there pain at all? Do you believe in a Satan? John tells us if we believe that we do not sin, the truth is not in us. The penalty for sin is death. Do you believe that? And who is the Author of sin? I could ask more, but for now it is enough.
Yes, lots of Questions.
Irene
Realistically, I must answer with personal opinions (which may change over time with additional information).I'm not sure that I think the bible in isolation can prove anything (in the absence of corroborating evidence).
I personally think Jesus was most likely a man who did what he was asked at a great personal price. As such I think he's dead and unlikely to return (as the same physical entity, you can argue the toss once you discount the physical side of things).
I'd say childbirth tends to be painful because the physical structures of the body are stretched beyond comfort for most women, triggering the electrical messages to the brain interpreted as pain (just as dislocating a joint will hurt).
I'd say there is pain at all because it provides a necessary feedback mechanism for living things to look after themselves. Consider that lepers lose their limbs because they lose sensation and are unable to tell that they are damaging them.
I think it probable that there is another entity besides God that I could see could be labelled Satan but I have insufficient data to identify the exact relationship this entity has with people or God, and also insufficient to state opinions in this area.
I'm not convinced sin necessarily has penalty except where enforced by people. It doesn't seem necessarily the case to me that there is anything we'd recognise as life after the one we have now, and it doesn't seem to me that those who commit sins necessarily face any penalty in this life.
I'd have to say the author of sin is people, as surely as people decide what sanity means and what it means to be sane. Nonetheless I'm pretty sure there are some things God disapproves of with respect to people.
These are my opinions – not dogmatically held beliefs – but nonetheless I'm liable to stand by them until proven wrong.
Quote (amosbug @ July 18 2009,16:37) Douglas, I am just wondering if you are going to share what exactly you mean?
Our Creator can talk to us in many ways…Do you feel like you are receiving a special message? If so are you posting these things for a reason?
Amy
I'm not receiving anything per se.Someone I know however, does seem to be able to (at times at least, it doesn't seem to be an “on demand” thing necessarily).
The premise that if there is an entity that can be identified as “God”, and that this entity can communicate with one person it should (and by statement can) be able to communicate with other people is what brought me to this site. The best match I could find (using Google) for someone communicating with God came from this site.
People on the site actually seem generally quite reasonable, pleasant and rational and once in a while an interesting topic starts.
I probably wasn't planning to share exactly what I mean in specific detail because it's all to easy to generate negativity with controversial statements which would definitely be unhelpful. My logic is that God should be able to complete that link with anyone else able to communicate with him if it's appropriate.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 18 2009,16:48) Hi Douglas,
What does this mean…who did you hear something from, how did “God” tell them, and what did “God” tell them?
The person in question is someone I know rather well, but whose identity I'm inclined not to disclose.From what they've said they appear to experience communications as usually verbal but sometimes images/visions too.
The what is something I don't intend to get too much into (reason explained in another recent reply). I could, if you're interested enough, compile a few links that would be nothing to do with God per se, but still pretty relevant to the future (and not irrelevant to this conversation for that matter). They'd concern global climate, and some might be somewhat dry and technical reading (it's terribly easy to overlook the human impact when it's just text on a page).
Douglas So you rather believe a man, then the Bible? The N.T. is a Witness account of the Letters, like I said before. So you don't believe in a Messiah, who is now seated at the right hand of Our Heavenly Father. Do you also know what that means as far as you are concerned?
I had an Aunt that did not believe either that She would be resurrected to a better life, just like you. No Hope, I will not ever go along with something like that, and you and others will be surprised one day.
IreneQuote (Douglas @ July 19 2009,06:41) Quote (amosbug @ July 18 2009,16:37) Douglas, I am just wondering if you are going to share what exactly you mean?
Our Creator can talk to us in many ways…Do you feel like you are receiving a special message? If so are you posting these things for a reason?
Amy
I'm not receiving anything per se.Someone I know however, does seem to be able to (at times at least, it doesn't seem to be an “on demand” thing necessarily).
The premise that if there is an entity that can be identified as “God”, and that this entity can communicate with one person it should (and by statement can) be able to communicate with other people is what brought me to this site. The best match I could find (using Google) for someone communicating with God came from this site.
People on the site actually seem generally quite reasonable, pleasant and rational and once in a while an interesting topic starts.
I probably wasn't planning to share exactly what I mean in specific detail because it's all to easy to generate negativity with controversial statements which would definitely be unhelpful. My logic is that God should be able to complete that link with anyone else able to communicate with him if it's appropriate.
Well I'm glad you are not trying to generate negativity, but I think if you make statements that are just hinting at what you are really talking about without actually saying anything you may be doing just that.Quote (amosbug @ July 19 2009,09:08) Quote (Douglas @ July 19 2009,06:41) Quote (amosbug @ July 18 2009,16:37) Douglas, I am just wondering if you are going to share what exactly you mean?
Our Creator can talk to us in many ways…Do you feel like you are receiving a special message? If so are you posting these things for a reason?
Amy
I'm not receiving anything per se.Someone I know however, does seem to be able to (at times at least, it doesn't seem to be an “on demand” thing necessarily).
The premise that if there is an entity that can be identified as “God”, and that this entity can communicate with one person it should (and by statement can) be able to communicate with other people is what brought me to this site. The best match I could find (using Google) for someone communicating with God came from this site.
People on the site actually seem generally quite reasonable, pleasant and rational and once in a while an interesting topic starts.
I probably wasn't planning to share exactly what I mean in specific detail because it's all to easy to generate negativity with controversial statements which would definitely be unhelpful. My logic is that God should be able to complete that link with anyone else able to communicate with him if it's appropriate.
Well I'm glad you are not trying to generate negativity, but I think if you make statements that are just hinting at what you are really talking about without actually saying anything you may be doing just that.
Greetings Amy…..Welcome to the forum,and I hope you enjoy the experience as much as I do….There have been so many movies and books on the rapture,however,I have been unable to find any scripture to support it without a doubt or two…Their are many ministers out there who have impecable credentials that attest to their briliance….Let us examine the process that got them those credentials…They memorized the text(somebody elses theory or observation)then they took the test based on what they memorized and passed,as a result they got a piece of paper that states they are an expert in a particular field….in this case it is bible interpretation….Let us always remember the scriptures,by design,are purposed to confuse and confound the wise and the learned….We are living in a time when prophecy is being full filled before our very eyes….My prayer is for wisdom to see and to understand…so I may be able to survive….Iam looking forward to your contribution to this forum…Quote (theodorej @ July 20 2009,01:30) Quote (amosbug @ July 19 2009,09:08) Quote (Douglas @ July 19 2009,06:41) Quote (amosbug @ July 18 2009,16:37) Douglas, I am just wondering if you are going to share what exactly you mean?
Our Creator can talk to us in many ways…Do you feel like you are receiving a special message? If so are you posting these things for a reason?
Amy
I'm not receiving anything per se.Someone I know however, does seem to be able to (at times at least, it doesn't seem to be an “on demand” thing necessarily).
The premise that if there is an entity that can be identified as “God”, and that this entity can communicate with one person it should (and by statement can) be able to communicate with other people is what brought me to this site. The best match I could find (using Google) for someone communicating with God came from this site.
People on the site actually seem generally quite reasonable, pleasant and rational and once in a while an interesting topic starts.
I probably wasn't planning to share exactly what I mean in specific detail because it's all to easy to generate negativity with controversial statements which would definitely be unhelpful. My logic is that God should be able to complete that link with anyone else able to communicate with him if it's appropriate.
Well I'm glad you are not trying to generate negativity, but I think if you make statements that are just hinting at what you are really talking about without actually saying anything you may be doing just that.
Greetings Amy…..Welcome to the forum,and I hope you enjoy the experience as much as I do….There have been so many movies and books on the rapture,however,I have been unable to find any scripture to support it without a doubt or two…Their are many ministers out there who have impecable credentials that attest to their briliance….Let us examine the process that got them those credentials…They memorized the text(somebody elses theory or observation)then they took the test based on what they memorized and passed,as a result they got a piece of paper that states they are an expert in a particular field….in this case it is bible interpretation….Let us always remember the scriptures,by design,are purposed to confuse and confound the wise and the learned….We are living in a time when prophecy is being full filled before our very eyes….My prayer is for wisdom to see and to understand…so I may be able to survive….Iam looking forward to your contribution to this forum…
Thank you very much…It's true many of those who teach these false doctrines, were first taught them at a Bible college…and there are a lot of very intelligent people who belive these things…I now see how amazing the word of God is because you don't have to be intelligent or go to college or church to be able to read and understand what God is saying to us…I pray for wisdom also, because I want to survive…I hope that I have it and that God will continue giving me more…I'm glad I found this place because I only know a few people that have any insight into these matters at all that I can talk too. I'm going through a hard time because of some of my friends and how miss lead they are, and they don't even care. I'm a lot different than I was when I meet them…and I may just have to realize that some of the friendships may be over, or will just be really different now.Quote (amosbug @ July 20 2009,05:43) I'm glad I found this place because I only know a few people that have any insight into these matters at all that I can talk too. I'm going through a hard time because of some of my friends and how miss lead they are, and they don't even care. I'm a lot different than I was when I meet them…and I may just have to realize that some of the friendships may be over, or will just be really different now.
Hi Amy,I don't know you very well yet, and so I'm making some general assumptions here, but I believe you and I have a lot in common.
I was raised in the church, I was very involved in the church, at one time I was in full-time ministry with the church.
A few years ago I began to question the Trinity. Those questions took me on the most amazing journey! I studied nothing but the bible/trinity related things (which is everything) for about 4 years.
I can tell you that most of my Christian friends quit walking beside me and ran on ahead…..leaving me back with my questions and hand in the air. None of them had the answers either. But here was the thing that seperated us – they didn't care!! They were happy with the pat-answers they were given by various Christians and Christian leaders. I was not satisfied, however, because what I found in my research, and what I found in the scriptures did not line-up with what they were saying.
Needless to say, the trek for truth can be a lonely road. But lonliness is a small price to pay for having your eyes opened.
With that being said, may I also just offer some unsolicited advice (from one who has trekked…and come around a few times…..) – give your friends a break. They are not all misled, although you may think they are right now. Beliefs change. You may be thoroughly convinced right now of something that you will change your mind on in a few months after serious study. So….try to relax around your Christian friends. Show them love and patience. Voice your concerns and listen to their responses. Take notes. Try to not feel like you have to convince them that they are *wrong*.
You know why? God, our Father, is the one who draws and gives greater insight and wisdom. For now, he has chosen YOU. Maybe later he will choose some of your friends…..
I hope this helps you in your journey, in some small way. Be joyful, and participate in this forum a lot!!!! Challenging your ideas will only help you.
Be encouraged! You are a truth-seeker.
Love,
MandyQuote (amosbug @ July 15 2009,03:06) Quote (Cindy @ July 13 2009,14:09) Hello amosbug! I am really very happy for you, that you have found the Lord. How you were Baptized makes a difference in your life, though. Were you laid Hands on, and did you receive the Holy Spirit? That is very important. We came out of the Catholic Church and I do sympathies with you, about all the Pagan idols etc. Unfortunately most Churches on the outside teach false doctrine. My Husband and I fellowship with our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, and I really like it here. Keep on seeking the truth and don't be afraid, there is no rapture. The Body of Christ is Spiritual. I am glad you are a Lady. We have some nice Ladies here. Mandy and Kathi are my favorite once. So in Christian Love Irene
Dear Irene,
Thank your for your reply…I don't think that I was baptized in that way…It was one of those things that happened when I was with a church group…we were at someone's swimming pool and I'm not even sure why I was baptized at that time…So what would you suggest I do since I do not attend an “outside” church and have no desire too. I just want to read the Bible and have my own fellowship…and if possible fellowship with other like minded people…Who could I have baptize me do you think?
Okay, I have to disagree about getting baptized *again*.I've been baptized twice.
I think God is big enough to know that our hearts are in the right place the FIRST TIME around. That we understand the scriptures that say – be baptized! So, we are baptized. It doesn't matter if we were 10 years old, or if it was in a pool. We understood the command, and we did it.
Jesus was against traditions and the washing of the outside of the cup anyway. So it doesn't matter if leaders place their hands on you in a certain way, or if they use a specific formula, or if ….. The main thing is that you have already been obedient to the command. My opinion, of course.
Love,
MandyDouglas,
I dig you. I relate to a lot of what you are sharing. Quite a few of my beliefs are not popular here either. But it's nice to hear various perspectives, imo.
More please!
Love,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ July 20 2009,06:39) Douglas, I dig you. I relate to a lot of what you are sharing. Quite a few of my beliefs are not popular here either. But it's nice to hear various perspectives, imo.
More please!
Love,
Mandy
Mandy! Are you kidding me? He thinks that Christ will not return and we do not either have a life after dead. Did you read all of His post? Especially on page 3.
I am speechless. Love IreneQuote (Not3in1 @ July 20 2009,06:23) Quote (amosbug @ July 20 2009,05:43) I'm glad I found this place because I only know a few people that have any insight into these matters at all that I can talk too. I'm going through a hard time because of some of my friends and how miss lead they are, and they don't even care. I'm a lot different than I was when I meet them…and I may just have to realize that some of the friendships may be over, or will just be really different now.
Hi Amy,I don't know you very well yet, and so I'm making some general assumptions here, but I believe you and I have a lot in common.
I was raised in the church, I was very involved in the church, at one time I was in full-time ministry with the church.
A few years ago I began to question the Trinity. Those questions took me on the most amazing journey! I studied nothing but the bible/trinity related things (which is everything) for about 4 years.
I can tell you that most of my Christian friends quit walking beside me and ran on ahead…..leaving me back with my questions and hand in the air. None of them had the answers either. But here was the thing that seperated us – they didn't care!! They were happy with the pat-answers they were given by various Christians and Christian leaders. I was not satisfied, however, because what I found in my research, and what I found in the scriptures did not line-up with what they were saying.
Needless to say, the trek for truth can be a lonely road. But lonliness is a small price to pay for having your eyes opened.
With that being said, may I also just offer some unsolicited advice (from one who has trekked…and come around a few times…..) – give your friends a break. They are not all misled, although you may think they are right now. Beliefs change. You may be thoroughly convinced right now of something that you will change your mind on in a few months after serious study. So….try to relax around your Christian friends. Show them love and patience. Voice your concerns and listen to their responses. Take notes. Try to not feel like you have to convince them that they are *wrong*.
You know why? God, our Father, is the one who draws and gives greater insight and wisdom. For now, he has chosen YOU. Maybe later he will choose some of your friends…..
I hope this helps you in your journey, in some small way. Be joyful, and participate in this forum a lot!!!! Challenging your ideas will only help you.
Be encouraged! You are a truth-seeker.
Love,
Mandy
It shouldn't cost friends anyway, not if they're real friends. Not only can people disagree within a friendship but I think people are bound by human nature.Indoctrination is common (not just in religion), where a particular belief is held – and propagated – amongst the majority. Every once in a while someone comes along with something new, controversial and challenging and tends to be immediately rejected by the mainstream, even though they don't hold original thoughts, only those given to them. Sometimes the controversial idea is in fact the correct one, as history proves repeatedly.
My observation however is that most people need their world defined to them from the outside and lack either ability or inclination to derive a world view from scratch. I think it's a necessary part of the human condition – we're a tribal species that tends to form into a pyramid structure, and we can't all be free thinkers and leaders for that to work. Therefore people conform and are (generally) rewarded by those surrounding them for so doing.
To do otherwise takes both significant insight and significant strength, unless you are a person to whom it comes naturally. Either way you still require cooperation from the rest of the species to prosper.
Quote (Cindy @ July 20 2009,09:44) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 20 2009,06:39) Douglas, I dig you. I relate to a lot of what you are sharing. Quite a few of my beliefs are not popular here either. But it's nice to hear various perspectives, imo.
More please!
Love,
Mandy
Mandy! Are you kidding me? He thinks that Christ will not return and we do not either have a life after dead. Did you read all of His post? Especially on page 3.
I am speechless. Love Irene
Actually, it was nice to know that there is anyone who gives a damn if I if I keep cluttering up this site or not (I could and should be spending far more of my time on other things, like finding out more about plants). I don't think saying it's nice to hear various perspectives is the same thing as endorsing those perspectives.That said, I stand by my original statement, with a few notes:
Quote I personally think Jesus was most likely a man who did what he was asked at a great personal price. As such I think he's dead and unlikely to return (as the same physical entity, you can argue the toss once you discount the physical side of things). I didn't rule out a “spiritual” sort of return (though to be honest I'm not really into that idea either). I could've made a far stronger statement about this but don't think now is the time.
I do however feel a need to point out that just as when Jesus showed up, most people clung to their existing beliefs and rejected him, I think exactly the same thing will happen when the next person shows up. Because he was just an every day person and controversial (and not in their world view) he was rejected by the mainstream of his day. They expected their warrior king to free them from the Romans, and they got a carpenter who was willing to give up his life. Who do you expect, and what will you get?
I also think that a lot of the mythology associated with Jesus came along after the fact, all the beliefs that sprung up around him. In some respects a great pity, because actually it seems to me there is a message of great value in both what Jesus preached and how he lived (and died). That message is diluted by obsessing over our eternal immortal rewards for holding beliefs.
Some random text: “You do not need to build churches to worship, instead you should worship through goodwill.”
I have to ask, if this life was all you got – would you live differently, to try to do more for God and for people? (with no expectation of eternal reward). I wonder if sometimes the Bible itself can become a “false idol”… not an attempt to offend, but a thought that occurred to me.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
