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Hi 94,
1Peter 3
“18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.The author of our faith, the firstborn from the dead died but was alive eternally in the Spirit of God becoming for us too a quickening Spirit.
Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 05 2007,13:05) I agree with you. The exact location of the Lake of Fire I don't know.
Hi Morning Star.2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.It appears that the same fire that burns the heavens and earth will destroy the ungodly.
Therefore it could be that the Lake of Fire is destruction of the old. The location would be the universe itself, albeit at the end of this current order.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.2 Peter 3:13
But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.Amen to God's promise.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 04 2007,20:55) Hi 94,
1Peter 3
“18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.The author of our faith, the firstborn from the dead died but was alive eternally in the Spirit of God becoming for us too a quickening Spirit.
Yeah but those spirits and THE SPIRIT were just a current of air
G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: – ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.Quote (t8 @ Feb. 06 2007,09:47) Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 05 2007,13:05) I agree with you. The exact location of the Lake of Fire I don't know.
Hi Morning Star.2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.It appears that the same fire that burns the heavens and earth will destroy the ungodly.
Therefore it could be that the Lake of Fire is destruction of the old. The location would be the universe itself, albeit at the end of this current order.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.2 Peter 3:13
But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.Amen to God's promise.
Good points.However, Jesus uses over and over the analogies of evil being weeded out and tossed into Gehenna. Is this a place designed for the devil and his angels? A place?
Amen MS,
The lake of fire was not made for man originally.
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:How long are the beast and the false prophet[men] in the lake?
From rev 19-20 it appears that it was at least 1000 years.Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 04 2007,20:53) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 04 2007,20:47) Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 04 2007,20:26) Dead men preach if only the body is dead but they are quickened in the spirit.
No, I'm sorry. I can't agree, and so, one of us is in error on this, and so, let's pray asking God for revelation on this. I don't mind being corrected if I am wrong.When Jesus was resurrected from the dead, He could preach again but when he died, He said, “Father into thy hands I commend my spirit”. (Luke 23:46)
God Bless
This was orthadox christinity for centuries way before and through even early catholicism.Example:
Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna at the time John wrote Revelations. Smyrna received praise from Jesus in Revelations. Polycarp's teachings reflect my view. Polycarp's view received praise from Christ.
It slowly changed and then pretty much altered during the reformation. I have prayed on it for about a year now. This is the answers I believe I have been led too.
Hi Morning Star:What is Polycarp's teaching relative to this subject?
Thanks & God Bless
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 04 2007,20:55) Hi 94,
1Peter 3
“18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.The author of our faith, the firstborn from the dead died but was alive eternally in the Spirit of God becoming for us too a quickening Spirit.
Hi Nick:I have given my understanding on this to Morning Star, but one thing, the meaning of the word quicken is “to cause to live”. Jesus was dead, and God raised him from the dead. Many scriptures state this if I have to quote some of them I will, but this is what I understand by the scripture which states that he was “quickened by the Spirit”.
I still say that dead men don't preach, and if Jesus could preach to those of Noah's time who were destroyed by the flood waters, I would sure be interested to know what he would say to them.
God Bless
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 10 2007,19:15) Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 04 2007,20:53) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 04 2007,20:47) Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 04 2007,20:26) Dead men preach if only the body is dead but they are quickened in the spirit.
No, I'm sorry. I can't agree, and so, one of us is in error on this, and so, let's pray asking God for revelation on this. I don't mind being corrected if I am wrong.When Jesus was resurrected from the dead, He could preach again but when he died, He said, “Father into thy hands I commend my spirit”. (Luke 23:46)
God Bless
This was orthadox christinity for centuries way before and through even early catholicism.Example:
Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna at the time John wrote Revelations. Smyrna received praise from Jesus in Revelations. Polycarp's teachings reflect my view. Polycarp's view received praise from Christ.
It slowly changed and then pretty much altered during the reformation. I have prayed on it for about a year now. This is the answers I believe I have been led too.
Hi Morning Star:What is Polycarp's teaching relative to this subject?
Thanks & God Bless
Hi 94,
Polycarp's work is accessible through the “writings” part of this site.Quote (942767 @ Feb. 10 2007,19:32) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 04 2007,20:55) Hi 94,
1Peter 3
“18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.The author of our faith, the firstborn from the dead died but was alive eternally in the Spirit of God becoming for us too a quickening Spirit.
Hi Nick:I have given my understanding on this to Morning Star, but one thing, the meaning of the word quicken is “to cause to live”. Jesus was dead, and God raised him from the dead. Many scriptures state this if I have to quote some of them I will, but this is what I understand by the scripture which states that he was “quickened by the Spirit”.
I still say that dead men don't preach, and if Jesus could preach to those of Noah's time who were destroyed by the flood waters, I would sure be interested to know what he would say to them.
God Bless
Hi 94,
Jesus was only dead as far as his human life goes because he had been eternally anointed with the everliving Spirit of God, that Spirit that he quickens us with unto eternity as well.
Yes I too would be intersted in what he said to the spirits in prison[1Peter 3].Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 10 2007,19:58) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 10 2007,19:15) Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 04 2007,20:53) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 04 2007,20:47) Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 04 2007,20:26) Dead men preach if only the body is dead but they are quickened in the spirit.
No, I'm sorry. I can't agree, and so, one of us is in error on this, and so, let's pray asking God for revelation on this. I don't mind being corrected if I am wrong.When Jesus was resurrected from the dead, He could preach again but when he died, He said, “Father into thy hands I commend my spirit”. (Luke 23:46)
God Bless
This was orthadox christinity for centuries way before and through even early catholicism.Example:
Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna at the time John wrote Revelations. Smyrna received praise from Jesus in Revelations. Polycarp's teachings reflect my view. Polycarp's view received praise from Christ.
It slowly changed and then pretty much altered during the reformation. I have prayed on it for about a year now. This is the answers I believe I have been led too.
Hi Morning Star:What is Polycarp's teaching relative to this subject?
Thanks & God Bless
Hi 94,
Polycarp's work is accessible through the “writings” part of this site.
Hi Nick:I have read the “Epistle of Polycarp to the Phillipians”, and I had read it before, however, unless I missed something, I don't see anything that he said that would support the belief that Jesus preached to those who were destroyed by the flood waters in Noah's time.
Thanks for directing me to the writings & God Bless
Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 04 2007,15:26) The near death experience, I am not commenting on. I don't have any clue about whether it is real or not. However, the dead are conscious they are exactly where the bible says they are in hades. They are either with Lazarus or they are with the rich man.
What you call a pagan parable Christians called orthadox for hundred of years. Catholics turned it into purgatory and Protestants just skipped it altogether and said Paradise (abraham's bosom) is heaven and hades is Hell or a premature Lake of Fire.
If you took every story Jesus told seriously, this would mean that Jesus condoned ,materialism, stealing, lying, and deceiving.Seeing as we know he certainly did not condone these behaviors, it is only practical that he told his stories with certain examples to place “emphasis” on certain points.
The bible says the price of sin is death….(not eternal damnation)
Believe me….I hate certain types of behaviors, and I'd personally would like to believe that child molesters, rapists, and murderers get to experience the same kind of pain they inflict on their victims, for eternity. Unfortunately, it's not what the bible teaches, it's simply what most churches teach. (it also is also a great marketing tool to “scare” people into coming into church every SUNday to make sure they give money when the collection plate is passed around)
When Jesus was on earth he ate with known sinners (thieves and prostitutes). This angered the scribes and pharisees, because they felt they were better than everyone else.
Here's my question…..If Jesus knew that these people were going to “burn forever”…….why would he ever eat with them and more importantly…why didn't he tell them this to give them a “heads up”?
“The price for sin is death”…..if you don't have enough “love” for the true creator to serve him because you “want to” and not because you feel you “have to”..(because you don't want to burn forever)…than you are serving him for the wrong purpose.
If you want to believe a “god of love” would “torture” people forever…..that's your choice…..but don't try pinning it on the bible, because of one “tongue in cheek” story on exercising humility.
is apocrypha scripture? I say much of it is. If you say our modern protestant bibles are a “letter” from God then you would probably disagree. The apocrypha explains much of the hades doctrine that our bibles lack. Jesus is directly commenting on scenes taken from the book of enoch when discussing lazurus and the rich man. It is a parable but it is not a false parable discribing a false afterlife encounter.
Quote (quitarguingoverstupidstuff @ Feb. 10 2007,22:58) Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 04 2007,15:26) The near death experience, I am not commenting on. I don't have any clue about whether it is real or not. However, the dead are conscious they are exactly where the bible says they are in hades. They are either with Lazarus or they are with the rich man.
What you call a pagan parable Christians called orthadox for hundred of years. Catholics turned it into purgatory and Protestants just skipped it altogether and said Paradise (abraham's bosom) is heaven and hades is Hell or a premature Lake of Fire.
If you took every story Jesus told seriously, this would mean that Jesus condoned ,materialism, stealing, lying, and deceiving.Seeing as we know he certainly did not condone these behaviors, it is only practical that he told his stories with certain examples to place “emphasis” on certain points.
The bible says the price of sin is death….(not eternal damnation)
Believe me….I hate certain types of behaviors, and I'd personally would like to believe that child molesters, rapists, and murderers get to experience the same kind of pain they inflict on their victims, for eternity. Unfortunately, it's not what the bible teaches, it's simply what most churches teach. (it also is also a great marketing tool to “scare” people into coming into church every SUNday to make sure they give money when the collection plate is passed around)
When Jesus was on earth he ate with known sinners (thieves and prostitutes). This angered the scribes and pharisees, because they felt they were better than everyone else.
Here's my question…..If Jesus knew that these people were going to “burn forever”…….why would he ever eat with them and more importantly…why didn't he tell them this to give them a “heads up”?
“The price for sin is death”…..if you don't have enough “love” for the true creator to serve him because you “want to” and not because you feel you “have to”..(because you don't want to burn forever)…than you are serving him for the wrong purpose.
If you want to believe a “god of love” would “torture” people forever…..that's your choice…..but don't try pinning it on the bible, because of one “tongue in cheek” story on exercising humility.
Hi qa,
He knew all men were sinners and so he supped with those who realised it and were desperate enough to want salvation, while avoiding those self righteous ones who felt they had no need of what he offered.Quote (Morning Star @ Feb. 11 2007,00:44) is apocrypha scripture? I say much of it is. If you say our modern protestant bibles are a “letter” from God then you would probably disagree. The apocrypha explains much of the hades doctrine that our bibles lack. Jesus is directly commenting on scenes taken from the book of enoch when discussing lazurus and the rich man. It is a parable but it is not a false parable discribing a false afterlife encounter.
Hi ms,
Can you give quotes?Quote Can you give quotes? Yes, can you? Nick puts a lot of weight on this parable in understanding the afterlife. He also puts a certain degree of trust in apocrapha.
If you could provide some quotes, that would be beneficial.
The Book of Enoch
Chapter 22XXII. Sheol or the Underworld.
221
And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock.
2
And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at.
3
Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should
4
assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.' I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit,
5
and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. And I asked Raphael the angel who was
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with me, and I said unto him: 'This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven?'
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And he answered me saying: 'This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.'
8
The I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separated from the other?'
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And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of
10
water. And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their
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lifetime. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There
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He shall bind them for ever. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days
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of the sinners. Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.'
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The I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.'sorry, I was commenting on something said on the first page:
Quote I agree with you. The exact location of the Lake of Fire I don't know.
could it be? Maybe.
But, I see alot of evidence pointing to an actual place or at the very least “state of being.” I would have to interpret to much allegorically.
As you know I also have alot of conviction concerning the teachings of the early church fathers. They unanimously agree it is “some kind” of actual literal existance/place.
Polycarp says Place.
John writes Revelation.
Jesus in Revelations says Smyrna is doing great doctrinally.
Polycarp is the bishop at Smyrna at that time.
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