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Hi,
Heb 1.10 quotes Ps 102.
It shows that some verses apparently written about God[The Father] can also be applied to the Son.So where to from there?
Venturing into speculative presumption:Does it show that all verses from ps 102 apply to the Son?
No.
Does it show that all verses relating to God apply also to the Son?
No
Does it show the Father is the Son and vice versa?
No.
Does it show God is a trinity.
No-only two are shown here.So fascinating though it may be it does not prove anything more than that some few and specific verses that seem to apply to God[the Father] can also be applied to the Son of God.
Hi,
If you took the view that these verses apply ONLY to the son then you are saying that God[the Father] is not the Creator. That opposes scripture. It leaves no room for the Son to be that God as you have differentiated them. Thus you must accept that Christ was with God in the beginning.I don't think he's saying that they apply only to the Son, but to both. The idea is that that makes them both the one true God.
Hi Kyle,
God is one and Jesus is His Son
and the rest is just the fanciful speculations of men who should know better.well in Hebs the Father calls his Son, “O God…” so evidently Jesus is A God. But it doesnt prove that Jesus is the Creator tho imho.
Hugs
Ha ha. I'm definitely inclined to agree with you, Nick. I just wanted to point out that Isaiah isn't saying those verses apply only to the Father or only to the Son. His way of thinking asigns them to both, making them both God. Use of common logic would obviously go against this, but it seems to me that logic needs to be thrown out the window (or at least modified) to have a belief in the Trinity.
I found that interesting as well, Phoenix. I never knew that God called his son by that title. Although, I think most would agree that Christ is the creator. Scripture is pretty clear that God created the worlds through his son.
Hi kyle,
I do feel sorry for these guys because you cannot think your way out of deception.
You need the Spirit to direct your steps.I'm sorry but What?
I found that interesting as well, Phoenix. I never knew that God called his son by that title. Although, I think most would agree that “Christ is the creator”. Scripture is pretty clear that “God created” the worlds through his son.
If God created through His Son then God is the Creator. If I used a wrench to turn a nut. Then I turned the nut using the wrench.
If I created a machine that Created another machine. Then who created the latter. True the machine I created did the work but who created the machine that did the work.
Did God create me? NO! There is only one who God created. We are created through the first creation. Did the first creation create me? NO! The creation he created self produced.
Now watch Did God create me? YES!
Quote (Kyle @ Mar. 24 2007,10:49) I found that interesting as well, Phoenix. I never knew that God called his son by that title. Although, I think most would agree that Christ is the creator. Scripture is pretty clear that God created the worlds through his son.
Hi KyleI explained an “otherwise” point of view in another thread but I will just copy and paste it here for you as well.
Quote God, the Father created everything… through Jesus (whose name is Michael the Archangel. Since Jesus' name did not come about till he came down here on earth). Michael is God's chief. He commands Michael what to do and how to make it. And no doubt Michael had all these other angels helping him also. [David – if you are reading this.. if this is how the JW's percieve it as well then that will make sense to me] Hehe start throwing your stones at me hehe.
Much the same as God sends messages through his Archangels which is then conveyed to his servants – Moses, Abraham etc.
So, basically, what Im trying to say is… Jesus is Gods Son sent to earth to rally us back to the Father. So he (Jesus) is relaying God's (the Father) message to us, to look to him (Jesus) because he knows the way.
God the Father actually accepts us worshipping Jesus because he said so on the Mount of Transfiguration. “This is my Son, whom I love, Listen to him”
Jesus explained in a parable (I think) about how we fed him when he was hungry and clothed him when he was naked and so on. His disciples didnt understand what he was talking about because they didnt remember doing this to him. But Jesus explained to them that they did it to those that did need it and when they did it to those that did need it they did for Jesus as well.
So, we worship Jesus… we are worshipping the Father as well. Which makes sense why Jesus says “the Father and I are One”
What do you think?
Hugs
PhoenixHi!
Take a little child out into the night and show him the stars and ask him, “Child who do you think made all of those stars?”, and the child will say “GOD”.
There is the “Creator” and the “Created”.
Everthing created had a beginning.
Since we know that Yeshua/YHWH created “all things”, and without him “nothing was made” that was made.
Then we know he did not create himself!
Jn 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him (Yeshua); and **without him** was not **any thing made** that was made.Put together with…
Col 1:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.He is/was the Word/God that was with the Father before all things and by him all things “Consist“.
The scriptures clearly show that “God” created the heavens and the earth…
Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.Is 45:18
For thus saith the LORD (YHWH) that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD (YHWH); and there is none else.Then we have the Father speaking to the Son…
Heb 1:
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.Ps 102:
25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.The Father by Heb 1:10 And Pss 102 declares that creation is by the “hands of Yeshua” and scriptures confirm that the *creation is not only made by him but for him*!
Yeshua is not nor was he ever just an empty shell like a puppet on a string that the Father worked through.
He is the Word/God the who once again has all power in heaven and earth, the same power that he created the heavens and the earth by.
This not ambiguous!
Hi W,
Neither was he the Father God Who is the source of all that he has
though Christ is the one through whom all these things were done by God[the Father].Hmm… the word through is what separates the phrase and shows us a definition of two beings. I wonder if it was even there in the old text
NH
Yes some tranlations say “Through Him”, but Heb 1:10 and Pss 102 says it was by “Yeshua\YHWHs own hands”.
This is not ambiguous.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 24 2007,21:55) Hi W,
If it was done through him then indeed the carpenter did the work for the builder.
NHHave it your way!
Hi W,
They work together.
But God is the builder.
In the church of God Christ is the first stone laid in God's building
2 Kings 12:11
And they gave the money, being told, into the hands of them that did the work, that had the oversight of the house of the LORD: and they laid it out to the carpenters and builders, that wrought upon the house of the LORD,
2 Kings 22:6
Unto carpenters, and builders, and masons, and to buy timber and hewn stone to repair the house.
Hebrews 11:10
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
1Cor 3
9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NH
Are yoiu forgetting the wonderfull words of our Saviour God…
Matt 16:
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.You see, he is the Lord from heaven, God in the flesh.
So very often you will find God the Father saying he will and yet Jesus says he will do the same.
Jesus makes “individual claims” to his own works and words.
And so Jesus said “I and my Father are One”.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 24 2007,23:26) NH Are yoiu forgetting the wonderfull words of our Saviour God…
Matt 16:
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.You see, he is the Lord from heaven, God in the flesh.
So very often you will find God the Father saying he will and yet Jesus says he will do the same.
Jesus makes “individual claims” to his own works and words.
And so Jesus said “I and my Father are One”.
Hi W,
So is Paul God because he is a builder, even a wise master builder, too?1cor 3
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.That is the problem with relying on inference and one or two verses rather than revelation in context.
Revelation is from God.
Inference from the fertile but fallacious minds of men.Nothing can change Christ from being the Son of God to God Himself.
He is not his own father.
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