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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 20 2009,17:12) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2009,16:37) I do believe that my messages often get lost in your interpretation. My cousin can have a fall, many day event, and it be good and God honoring and even open on Oct. 31st. His event isn't just on Oct. 31st.
Its your own interpretation I am having a problem with.Isn't his fall event focused around Halloween?
WJ
Keith,
His event is focused around the farm after the harvest, halloween has influenced his event but it is not “centered” around halloween. I do believe that his money making event would make money if there were no influences of halloween there at all. He has a corn maze, a hay ride, a pony ride, a petting zoo, farm animals exhibited and taught about, a farmer's lecture on God's help to the farmer's and how crops grow, and a gift shop to purchase jams, salad dressing, hot cocoa, and many things. He also has the halloween stuff like a “haunted barn” and eyeballs and mummies for sale and vampire fangs, etc.. I do believe that his event would stand fine without the halloween junk. His farm has pro-life messages and he gives tours throughout the year. So, I think he should eliminate the halloween “fun” and that is my opinion. We are all going towards maturity and God loves us where we are.Kathi
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 20 2009,17:14) Hi LU,
Do those in Christ celebrate his birth and death?
They are one with him and he has things for us to do.Let the dead bury the dead
Nick,
Those in Christ celebrate His birth and resurrection. Did you not realize that Easter was a celebration of the resurrection?
LUHi LU,
Do they?
Are there not more important things to do than follow the ways of men?Servants serve.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2009,19:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 20 2009,17:14) Hi LU,
Do those in Christ celebrate his birth and death?
They are one with him and he has things for us to do.Let the dead bury the dead
Nick,
Those in Christ celebrate His birth and resurrection. Did you not realize that Easter was a celebration of the resurrection?
LU
You wish to celebrate the death and resurrection? Thats what the baptism is about.Celebrating the Winter Solstice has nothing to do with his birth.
Traditions of man.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 20 2009,17:19) Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2009,17:08) Only two of them celebrates a Christian event, not all three. K
Not true! The world does not celebrate Jesus birth! The world does not celebrate Jesus resurection!But you do and your church does.
We use Oct 31st as a day for the children learning about the scriptures, the resurection, prayer, Bible characters Etc.
Is there a difference?
WJ
Keith,
Would you be angry if halloween was officially wiped off the calendar, never to be celebrated again?Would you be angry if Christmas was officially wiped off the calendar, never to be officially celebrated again? How about Easter.
I see Christmas and Easter as Christian celebrations.
I don't see halloween as a Christian celebration and so I don't think that Christians need to feel like providing an alternative party at church.The church choir prepares special Christmas music, and special Easter music but never special halloween music. I do not think that halloween should be celebrated at churches. I think the church should take a stand here and give the message that celebrating halloween is not a good idea. This can be done without being offensive as I have suggested before. We are not to judge or offend non-believers but love them and open the door when they knock and be a light of love and not darkness.
My opinion,
KathiQuote (thethinker @ Oct. 20 2009,17:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 21 2009,11:30) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 20 2009,19:15) Hi TT,
Benign and irrelevant?Then why do you avidly promote it?
Are you really of the world?
NHYou are not listening are you?
We are defending our freedom in Christ to do with Oct 31st what ever we believe God wants us to do or not to do!
WJ
WJ,
Nick knows very well that we have been defending our Christian liberty.thinker
You mean liberty, nothing christian about it.Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2009,20:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 20 2009,17:19) Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2009,17:08) Only two of them celebrates a Christian event, not all three. K
Not true! The world does not celebrate Jesus birth! The world does not celebrate Jesus resurection!But you do and your church does.
We use Oct 31st as a day for the children learning about the scriptures, the resurection, prayer, Bible characters Etc.
Is there a difference?
WJ
Keith,
Would you be angry if halloween was officially wiped off the calendar, never to be celebrated again?Would you be angry if Christmas was officially wiped off the calendar, never to be officially celebrated again? How about Easter.
I see Christmas and Easter as Christian celebrations.
I don't see halloween as a Christian celebration and so I don't think that Christians need to feel like providing an alternative party at church.The church choir prepares special Christmas music, and special Easter music but never special halloween music. I do not think that halloween should be celebrated at churches. I think the church should take a stand here and give the message that celebrating halloween is not a good idea. This can be done without being offensive as I have suggested before. We are not to judge or offend non-believers but love them and open the door when they knock and be a light of love and not darkness.
My opinion,
Kathi
Putting Jesus in christmas and easter is no different than handing out bible tracts and candy.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 20 2009,22:55) Hi LU,
Do they?
Are there not more important things to do than follow the ways of men?Servants serve.
Nick,
Are there not more important things to do than sitting at your computer all day arguing and being the “heavy?” Or do you call that “serving.” Usually at celebrations around my house there is a lot of serving going on.LU
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 20 2009,15:57) Quote (david @ Oct. 21 2009,10:16) Quote I AM DEFENDING CHRISTIAN LIBERTY. Technically this thread is about halloween. I think through the legalist implications and discern the attack on Christian liberty. –thinker.
What do you think of halloween?
David,
I have answered all this already. Where have you been dude? I said that halloween is BENIGN. This is neither a defense or a condemnation. Paul felt that eating meats sacrificed to idols in an idol's temple was benign because he had the knowledge that no other gods exist. In other words, feasting in an idol's temple was BENIGN to Paul except where it caused his brother to stumble.Halloween is BENIGN to me David because I know that pagan gods and ghosts and satan are not real. I never even use a capital “s” for satan except when it is grammatically correct. Satan was real but he has been cast out this world and into the lake of fire.
Read 1 Corinthians 8 David. Paul said that those who could not feast in an idol's temple could not because they had a “consciousness of the idol” which defiled their consciences. I have no consciousness of idols David. So I may feast in an idol's temple if it does not cause my brother to stumble. I have said these things over and over on this thread David.
Halloween is a threat to you because you are conscious of that which does not exist!
Again, I do not defend or condemn halloween. It is BENIGN.
thinker
Satan has not been judged yet.Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 20 2009,23:07) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2009,20:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 20 2009,17:19) Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2009,17:08) Only two of them celebrates a Christian event, not all three. K
Not true! The world does not celebrate Jesus birth! The world does not celebrate Jesus resurection!But you do and your church does.
We use Oct 31st as a day for the children learning about the scriptures, the resurection, prayer, Bible characters Etc.
Is there a difference?
WJ
Keith,
Would you be angry if halloween was officially wiped off the calendar, never to be celebrated again?Would you be angry if Christmas was officially wiped off the calendar, never to be officially celebrated again? How about Easter.
I see Christmas and Easter as Christian celebrations.
I don't see halloween as a Christian celebration and so I don't think that Christians need to feel like providing an alternative party at church.The church choir prepares special Christmas music, and special Easter music but never special halloween music. I do not think that halloween should be celebrated at churches. I think the church should take a stand here and give the message that celebrating halloween is not a good idea. This can be done without being offensive as I have suggested before. We are not to judge or offend non-believers but love them and open the door when they knock and be a light of love and not darkness.
My opinion,
Kathi
Putting Jesus in christmas and easter is no different than handing out bible tracts and candy.
Christmas without Jesus is just a winter holiday. I will celebrate Christmas.Quote (942767 @ Oct. 20 2009,17:26) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 21 2009,05:56) Hi Kathi, No, I think you are a realist. The thing is, sometimes being a Christian and being a realist don't mesh.
For instance, because Halloween is a so-called wicked holiday after pagan roots (and so is Easter and Christmas) you cannot be lukewarm. Either they are all bad by the same token, or not. I confess, this is my inner-struggle.
Love,
Mandy
Hi Mandy:First of all, I only said that I do not celebrate Halloween. What you do with this holiday is up to you, but there is a difference between this holiday and Christmas and Easter.
Christmas and Easter are about the birth and the resurrection of Jesus our Lord. Of course, the world has made a way to commercialize these holidays with Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny.
I celebrate the birth and the resurrection of my Lord every day, but these holidays are a good way to bring the family together. Some of the family may not know the true meaning of Christmas and Easter, and it is an opportunity to share.
Anyway, I have only told you what I do. I am not the judge.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Good post Marty!Quote Halloween is a threat to you because you are conscious of that which does not exist! It's not a threat to either of us, Thinker. Here is what I think “to stumble” someone means.
As far as I can tell, everyone and their dog knows halloween has ancient roots that are dark. Most don't care. But many others do. And if someone who is starting to study the Bible and taking an interest in God does some research and is finding out the origins of halloween, and they see someone who they had thought was a Christian, someone who claims to be following the Bible, taking part in what they now understand to be rooted in darkness, what will their response be? They may think they see hypocrisy or a mixing of truth with darkness and no longer be so interested in your Bible, or what you have to say. They may be stumbled. Or, they may not care.
But, given what was said about stumbling a brother, do you really want to take that risk? Do you really want to play with lives….so you can give children toothaches?
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2009,20:13) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 20 2009,23:07) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2009,20:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 20 2009,17:19) Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2009,17:08) Only two of them celebrates a Christian event, not all three. K
Not true! The world does not celebrate Jesus birth! The world does not celebrate Jesus resurection!But you do and your church does.
We use Oct 31st as a day for the children learning about the scriptures, the resurection, prayer, Bible characters Etc.
Is there a difference?
WJ
Keith,
Would you be angry if halloween was officially wiped off the calendar, never to be celebrated again?Would you be angry if Christmas was officially wiped off the calendar, never to be officially celebrated again? How about Easter.
I see Christmas and Easter as Christian celebrations.
I don't see halloween as a Christian celebration and so I don't think that Christians need to feel like providing an alternative party at church.The church choir prepares special Christmas music, and special Easter music but never special halloween music. I do not think that halloween should be celebrated at churches. I think the church should take a stand here and give the message that celebrating halloween is not a good idea. This can be done without being offensive as I have suggested before. We are not to judge or offend non-believers but love them and open the door when they knock and be a light of love and not darkness.
My opinion,
Kathi
Putting Jesus in christmas and easter is no different than handing out bible tracts and candy.
Christmas without Jesus is just a winter holiday. I will celebrate Christmas.
Uh huh. . .Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 20 2009,17:29) Kathi, So you compromise, then. Hey, I can dig it. I'm just trying to call a spade a spade here. The tree, while meaningful to your family, is also from a pagan practice. Were you aware of that? Have you ever wondered where that time-honored tradition comes from? It doesn't matter if it's decorated with handmade decorations from your beloved, that is sort of beside the point really. I know, I know, again, this is hard stuff to sift through.
If they bottom line is that these holidays have roots in evil and as Christians we are to avoid them, then we are to avoide them all. Not just the ones that we think have redeeming qualities about them. Am I off track here? Like someone said, is a “little” sin okay? Or do you feel it is sin at all? Maybe not? These are questions I'm asking myself as well.
I do believe we are comparing apples to apples, however.
Love,
Mandy
Mandy,
Call it whatever you want…I just don't see it as compromising. I do not lump all the holidays in one pot and must either celebrate them all or none of them at all. Each is unique and has a unique history and represent different things. Some of them are celebrated because of what Christ did and some are celebrated for what God has done for a nation but I do not find halloween as one that is celebrated because of what Christ or God has done.I will ask you the same question that I asked Keith.
Would you be angry or relieved to have halloween declared a non-holiday and no longer to be celebrated?Would you be angry or relieved to have Christmas declared a non-holiday and no longer to be celebrated? What about Easter?
How do you suppose the ACLU would feel?
Love,
KathiQuote So I will anwser… The Bible says I am to love my nighbor as myself, not more than myself, doesn't it?
If he is my brother then giving children candy and a Bible tract should not offend him
–WJ
WJ, I've played this mind game with myself a couple of times too, convincing myself that if they were only smarter, if they only had more knowledge, they would see that this or that was harmless.
But if it stumbles them, shouldn't that be our focus.Quote WJ, I ask you this again. Which is more important. Your freedom. Or, your brother?
WJ, I asked this because some on here continually wave their flag of freedom, and have not once mentioned how THEIR actions affect others. Sometimes, ones freedom encroaches on another's. Do you yield, or do you continue to cry “freedom”?And when I asked this the first time:
Quote Your conscience or the conscience of those who believe you are a Christian. Which is more important?
…after making some negative comment about JW's (a tactic you only do when you have nothing left to play) you said:Quote I would rather obey God than man!
But how does that answer my question. It was really a simple question:
1. Your conscience
2. Your brothers conscience
Pick which number is more important to you.
(No, you never answered this, so yes, I did rephrase the question:)WJ, I ask you this again. Which is more important. Your freedom. Or, your brother?
I know you don't want to answer this question. So, you answered:Quote The Bible says I am to love my nighbor as myself, not more than myself, doesn't it?
Again, not an answer. And again, it was an extremely simple question:
1. Your freedom
2. Your brother.
Which is more important, 1, or 2?I do know both are important to you. I do not doubt that. I just want you to actually think about which one you value more.
You go on:
Quote I cannot be responsible for the conscience of every man, especially those I do not know that I may be offending.
No one expects you to be responsible for the lives and consciences of every man. Just of those who are around you and observe your actions and interact with you. Imagine that the world is watching and that you are like the apostles, a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels and men.Quote If I believe my liberty in Christ allows me to have a glass of wine with my dinner, (Of course I havnt had a drink in many many months, but I am free to do so if I like), does that mean that I should not buy the wine for fear I might offend my brother who thinks it is wrong, and who I do not see?
How can you stumble someone you “do not see.”
Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat flesh at all, that I may not make my brother stumble.Do you think that verse makes this seem important?
Do you think Paul felt his freedom was more important that stumbling a brother or less important?david.
I'd like to make clear, WJ, that I do think you have good motives. I just think you haven't fully considered those around you.Quote The last time we did this was about 6 weeks ago and 7 people got saved! –WJ
Were they choking on the hot dogs?
Quote I AM DEFENDING CHRISTIAN LIBERTY. –thinker
Quote We are defending our freedom in Christ to do with Oct 31st what ever we believe God wants us to do or not to do! –WJ
Since this is apparently the theme, I'm wondering if either of you could explain your Christian freedom. Define it. Explain it. Make us understand why it is more important to you than other people's lives.
Thankyou.
Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat flesh at all, that I may not make my brother stumble.
In the face of this scripture, would it make sense for someone to say: 'I am free to eat whatever I want. My freedom is important. It's mine. I'm free. Yay freedom!'
What was Paul saying he was willing to do to his freedom to eat certain food, IF it troubled his brother? That's right, he was willing to give up that freedom.
So, I went to a Bible study tonight and feel like the Lord showed me something that might be of interest here.
This is an excerpt from the story about Gideon:
Judg 6:25-28
25 Now on the same night the Lord said to him, “Take your father's bull and a second bull seven years old, and pull down the altar of Baal which belongs to your father, and cut down the Asherah that is beside it;
26 and build an altar to the Lord your God on the top of this stronghold in an orderly manner, and take a second bull and offer a burnt offering with the wood of the Asherah which you shall cut down.”
27 Then Gideon took ten men of his servants and did as the Lord had spoken to him; and because he was too afraid of his father's household and the men of the city to do it by day, he did it by night.
The Altar of Baal Destroyed 28 When the men of the city arose early in the morning, behold, the altar of Baal was torn down, and the Asherah which was beside it was cut down, and the second bull was offered on the altar which had been built.
NASUGod gives direction here to Gideon to pull down a pagan altar and use the Asherah as firewood to later use to burn an offering to the Lord on the new altar that Gideon was to build in the same place and this time it would be an altar for the Lord. So you see, the Lord did not concern Himself with the purpose of what lied there before. It didn't bother Him to build on the ruins of the pagan altar. So, I see this new altar to have, in a sense, the pagan roots since it is built over what used to be pagan. Follow along here…the new Godly altar replaced the pagan altar. I see Christmas as the Godly holiday replacing the pagan holiday (the Winter Solstice)…Easter also.
Thanks for reading,
Kathi
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