Grace

Participant

Gene Balthrop:

Quote

Nothing useful in the eyes of God is possible without grace.
We can do nothing of ourselves just as Jesus couldn't either.
The one who wants to save his own life will lose it-we need grace.

Grace is not given to all.
Grace comes to men through Jesus Christ.
Unless we are born of the Spirit we are worse than helpless, even deceived.

Nick Hassan wrote:

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But the Word GRACE from what i have read is (God's influencing on the heart). And with that working in us we are being caused to except God's ways into our hearts and minds. In face we are saved by GRACE and NOT of ourselves as scripture say. Grace is GOD's saving Power at work, Paul said He labored harder then all the rest and then went on to say “YET NOT (I) BUT THE GRACE OF GOD LABORED. Paul full well know is was all by GRACE.

The question I have is are you two really disagreeing on the issue since it does not seem to me you are. I am assuming you are speaking of God’s grace as it is applied in certain context as you both are speaking of how it influences the hearts and spirits of believers.

I will point out that even the Sabbath was given to the Hebrew people by God’s grace so there are applications of His grace outside the context which you seem to be discussing.

Within the context of your discussion I do not like the word “influences” since it seems to weak of a term to describe the change of God causes to come over believers. I am also reluctant to say that the rebirth in spirit equals a change of heart though both must obviously occur and God is the one who causes them to occur.

There is not anything we can do to obtain God’s grace except ask and the mere fact we ask him in faith demonstrates we have already received some of His grace and are merely asking for more. Still we must seek for more and take advantage of those opportunities God puts in front of us to obtain more but again we do all these thing only because we have received grace from God to do them.

January 26, 2009 at 2:59 am#119107

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2009,06:35)

Hi KW,
We are under assault by false teachers here and since they cannot listen and we do not ban them we have to expose them by their own words.

Using their own word is probably not the best way to handle false teachers unless you can demonstrate how their words are different from what the true gospel states.

You should consider those who come by and read your posts to one another and what they read will not make sense unless you stick to the message of gospel as much as possible. If a person makes what you consider a foolish statement then address it then but afterwords let it drop unless they mention it as they may well heed your rebuke and it is not godly to dwell on anther's mistakes.

I also urge you to be patient with those who believe and teach false doctrines as God willing they will repent and see the truth. Still you have to address their false teachings at every opportunity so that the nieve, unwary, careless are not misled without someone attempting to stand in their way.

I myself differ with you over the nature of Jesus since I have abandoned the idea that Jesus preexisted his birth and now look at him as a human being that was conceived much like we are though with but 1 human parent in a process called parthenogenesiswith a chromosome mutation that caused him to be male instead of female. That miraculous conception was caused by grace of God.

January 26, 2009 at 3:30 am#119112

Participant

Hi KW,
The assault by universalists here is multipronged.

They teach man has no freedom of will.
They teach what God says he wants is what he will do.
They confer on grace an aspect of irresistible force.
The gospel and teachings of Jesus are said not to apply to us.
The teachings of Paul are given a new role as a gospel.
They also reduce the role of scripture and the lordship of Jesus.

So you will note the forced popularity of these topics as they try to force a foreign view on the lambs of God.

So we expose their ways and try to enlarge the opportunities for more useful discussion.
The grace given is sufficient.

January 26, 2009 at 4:42 am#119120

chosenone

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2009,14:30)

Hi KW,
The assault by universalists here is multipronged.

They teach man has no freedom of will.
They teach what God says he wants is what he will do.
They confer on grace an aspect of irresistible force.
They also reduce the role of scripture and the lordship of Jesus.
The teachings of Paul are given a new role as a gospel.
They also reduce the role of scripture and the lordship of Jesus.

So you will note the forced popularity of these topics as they try to force a foreign view on the lambs of God.

So we expose their ways and try to enlarge the opportunities for more useful discussion.
The grace given is sufficient.

NH. You say:

They teach man has no freedom of will.
Eph.1:11 … being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One (God) Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will, (can our so-called “free will over-power Gods will”?

They teach what God says he wants is what he will do.
Isaiah.46:10 …Saying, All My counsel shall be confirmed, And ALL my desire will I do. Indeed I speak! Indeed I will bring it about.

They confer on grace an aspect of irresistible force.
Eph.2:8-9 …8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting. (“and this is NOT OUT OF YOU”).

They also reduce the role of scripture and the lordship of Jesus.
Ro.15:8 …8 For I am saying that Christ has become the Servant of the Circumcision, for the sake of the truth of God, to confirm the patriarchal promises. (Also include Matt.15:24)

The teachings of Paul are given a new role as a gospel.
Ro.15:16 … 15 Yet more daringly do I write to you, in part, as prompting you, because of the grace being given to me from God,
16 for me to be the minister of Christ Jesus for the nations, acting as a priest of the evangel of God, that the approach present of the nations may be becoming well received, having been hallowed by holy spirit. (A new role? What bible do you read Nick?)

They also reduce the role of scripture and the lordship of Jesus.
(You don't say how this is done, please explain???)

As scripture plainly says, non of these accusations of Nick are true.
He accuses falsely!!!

Blessings.

January 26, 2009 at 4:50 am#119122

Participant

Thank you CO,
That is the sort of approach.
One verse wrongly read and you are content

January 26, 2009 at 4:54 am#119123

chosenone

Participant

You're welcome NH.
You can't argue with scripture, your attempts to ridicule “the saviour of all” prove ignorance of scripture.

January 26, 2009 at 8:52 am#119135

Participant

Nick Hassan:

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The assault by universalists here is multi-pronged.

I assume you are calling them universalists because they believe in universal salvation a tenet I wish was true but know is false and encourages people to sin as it contradicts the idea that God rewards those that seek him and punishes those who do not. If they actually believe in the God of Adam, Mosses, and Jesus then they would discard such a foolish teaching so as not to put obstacles in the way of those seeking God.

Nick Hassan:

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They teach man has no freedom of will.

I have heard this teaching and I believe it stems from their confusion of the difference between foreknowledge and predestination. If you believe in prophecy then you believe in foreknowledge and I assume you God knows everything. It is also true that God created us and so created the part of us that hungers and thirst for righteousness or the part that rejects him as those are not randomly determined. In fact scripture tells us quite clearly that knowing all of this God determines the place and time we will exist. None of this of course eliminate free will because it is us that makes the choice but it is God’s grace that gave us the choice and the desire to make that choice so we have nothing to brag about.

Nick Hassan:

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They teach what God says he wants is what he will do.

God wants all people to be saved and He will do what he can to save them except He will not do evil. So God is limited in what He will do by the fact that he cannot be tempted by evil and therefore cannot do evil. That limit means that God cannot always do what he wants.

Nick Hassan:

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They confer on grace an aspect of irresistible force.

That is a tricky point. I can certainly point to the fact that by God’s grace the Sabbath was given to the Hebrew people and yet some rejected it. God could have forced them to honor that gift but He chose not to do so. In that as in everything God does what is truly righteous.

Nick Hassan:

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The gospel and teachings of Jesus are said not to apply to us.

They are a bit confused since Jesus did preach to those under the law and those that enter the new covenant are not under the law. Still Jesus is a prophet and so spoke of what was to come and God does not change and so desires the same thing from His people as He did under the law. The difference is by the spirit of holiness that is created in us by God’s grace we are able to truly do as God desires unlike those under the old covenant.

[Nick Hassan:

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The teachings of Paul are given a new role as a gospel.

From what I have heard they cherry pick the letters of Paul and ignore James writing all together. I wonder what they think of Jude whose short letter is full of fire and brimstone.

Nick Hassan:

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They also reduce the role of scripture and the lordship of Jesus.

I am not sure what you mean here. I will point out that scripture is a tool that Satan and his servants are fond of using to lead the unwary astray. It can also be a tool to seek God in truth but even then you have to go to God to obtain the true interpretation and you should realize that God has chosen to hand scripture over to false teachers for many years. As for Jesus’ role in the gospel it is quite inclusive in that we must believe Jesus is King over everything in heaven and on earth to receive and live by the spirit God gives by His grace.

Nick Hassan:

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So we expose their ways and try to enlarge the opportunities for more useful discussion.
The grace given is sufficient.

That is good but you consider that not everyone that reads your discussion is privy to the entire conversation. Since your hope is to teach what is true then you should stick to debates about what parts of the gospel they put into confusion and not be led astray into talking about the wording of their responses as that in itself can be a snare Satan sets for you. If they do not bring up those areas of the gospel then hand them over to Satan in hopes they will repent and teach the truth. You have better things to do but to get into what sounds like childish arguments to the uninformed. Just remember what Joshua said to the Hebrew people and that was that whatever they chose to do he and his family would serve the Lord so seek God and His righteousness and leave your distracters for Him to handle.

Here is an example of what I am speaking about.

One verse wrongly read and you are content

I look at that at say what are you speaking about. I have no clue what you are addressing though choosenone may. If I read choosenone's post I will not have any opinion but his to compare with. So I ask you what good does that do me who is but an audience member. It may enlighten choosenone but if he has hardened his heart as you seem to suggest I have my doubts. To me it sounds like you are engaging in a game of tit for tat. What would aid me is if you pointed out the scripture he interpreted wrong and then interpret it correctly. I do realize some like to dwell on some subjects and in that case it is best to drop the conversation and go on to another as the first is no longer progressing. They may bury what you said but sometimes you just have to dust you feet off and go elsewhere.

January 26, 2009 at 8:53 am#119136

Participant

I forgot to credit Nick Hassan with saying “One verse wrongly read and you are content”. I am sorry if that causes anyone confusion.

January 26, 2009 at 11:07 am#119147

thetruth

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2008,13:07)

Quote

Hi,
Nothing useful in the eyes of God is possible without grace.
We can do nothing of ourselves just as Jesus couldn't either.
The one who wants to save his own life will lose it-we need grace.

Grace is not given to all.
Grace comes to men through Jesus Christ.
Unless we are born of the Spirit we are worse than helpless, even deceived.

Quote

Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Acts 20:32
And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

John 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 5
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

You even quote John 1:16 which speaks of Grace for all.

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Paul, John and Peter prayed for grace to be given to their brothers.

Romans 1:7
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:2
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

2 Peter 3:18
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

2 John 1:3
Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Unfortunately some abuse God's Grace, by not truly repenting of their ways. True repentance is a 180 degree turn from your old ways. We are to try and not sin anymore. Will we? Yes! Paul says in Romans 7:15-19 “I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.(or flesh) For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.” It is only by God's Grace through the blood of our Lord Jesus, that we are saved. Peace be with you.

kerwin wrote:

Hi,
Nothing useful in the eyes of God is possible without grace.
We can do nothing of ourselves just as Jesus couldn't either.
The one who wants to save his own life will lose it-we need grace.
Grace is not given to all.
Grace comes to men through Jesus Christ.
Unless we are born of the Spirit we are worse than helpless, even deceived.

I would have to disagree with you here. Grace is given freely to all, it is our choice to accept God's grace or not. To say Grace is not given to all, would be the same as saying Jesus only died for certain people. He died on the cross for all, but not all will accept him. Paul writes in Romans 3:3-4 “What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar As it is written:
“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.” So is God's Grace, it is available to all, but not all will take it.

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Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Acts 20:32
And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

John 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 5
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

I found it funny that you quoted John 1:16 which speaks of Grace for all.

We are definitely saved through God's Grace. He tells us quite clearly how to achieve his Grace. By BELIEVING – that Jesus is who said he is, and that he died and arose from the dead (John 8:24), By REPENTING – fully, not just saying, but trying to do ( Acts 17:30), CONFESSING – that Jesus is Lord, and that we need him, because we can't do it alone. (Not the Sinner's Prayer) (I John 1:9), Be BAPTIZED – as Christ was, immersed for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of The Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38), and TEACHING – his word either by our words or are actions (Matthew 28:20).

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Paul, John and Peter prayed for grace to be given to their brothers.

Romans 1:7
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:2
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

2 Peter 3:18
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

2 John 1:3
Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

We should always pray for our brothers in Christ, and especially those who do not know him. Regarding those bought by the blood, unfortunately some abuse God's Grace, by not truly repenting of their ways. True repentance is a 180 degree turn from your old ways. We are to try and not sin anymore. Will we? Yes! Paul says in Romans 7:15-19 “I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is,
in my sinful nature.(or flesh) For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.” It is only by God's Grace through the blood of our Lord Jesus, that we are saved. We are to strive to be Christ like, not like Christ himself for none of us can reach his perfection, or his Godhood, as some religions believe. No we are to try to do what is right, but we are human unlike Jesus and therefore, will fall. Peace be with you and the Lord's Grace.

January 26, 2009 at 5:58 pm#119159

Participant

Hi,
Grace and peace came through Jesus Christ.
The word WE gives the context according to whom the book is written.

The teachings of the apostles are for the body of Christ and not the heathen masses.

All are not among the WE blessed by God.

January 26, 2009 at 7:55 pm#119181

Participant

To All……….The word GRACE as defined is (GOD”S INFLUENCING ON THE HEART) . You take that any way you like, But all WILLS are the result of influence one way or the other, The is (NO) Such thing as a (FREE WILL) if so where is it in mentioned in scripture, Scripture says God (WORKS IN US) BOTH TO (WILL) and DO according to (HIS) GOOD PLEASURE . Now all you who don't really believe that or have to add to that are on ONE side of the fence and the ones who truly believe that are on the other side.
One side say God knew the time place and our destination, “for whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed unto the image of his Dear son, and again , For GOD (WORKS ALL THINGS) according to the council of HIS WILL>do you see mans will anywhere in there ? Or does mans WILL override GOD WILL. God CONCILIATES US UNTO HIM, we don't conciliate our selves to him by our so-called “free wills”.
So lets look at the side who does not believe that for what it says, they believe the the final salvations process is strictly up to us by our own so called “FREE WILLS” , But scripture say “it is not within man to direct his paths”, and again “for the Carnal mind is (NOT) subject to the Laws of GOD neither indeed (CAN BE), so some how we Chose by our OWN WILLS, interesting no where in scripture does it say that , but these brazen ones can say that with a surety , So lets ask why woulds they even think that in the first place , is it because they want to be a GOD unto themselves and their stubborn minds are (self) WILLED. So God does not rule in them they have the final say themselves, pure hog wash. They know neither the MIND nor the POWER of GOD. or they wouldn't contradict His words. The whole problem Here is (MAN GODS). Men who want to be a GOD, thinking they are the determiners of their fate. Pure hog wash, just little men trying to be a BIG GOD> IMO

love and peace to all………………………gene

January 26, 2009 at 8:10 pm#119182

Participant

To ALL………..remember where it says “They (PROFESS GOD) BUT DENY THE (POWER THEREOF)”, They tell you God can save you but deny he really has the power to its strictly up to your “free will” choice to really save you, they are denying God saving POWER. You see to them God is just to weak to save you without you help. And of course “they” by their so-called “free will” choices are just special and the rest get an E ticket to the lake of Fire. Pure lairs and Hypocrites, Self WILLED and void of the Spirit of GOD. They don't realize “For You are (CREATED UNTO GOOD WORKS)”, and “you are saved BY GRACE and Taht (NOT) of yourselves, Not of works Lest any should Boast, it is a (GIFT) From GOD> IMO

peace and love to all and especially who truly believe and understand what is written…………………gene

January 26, 2009 at 8:13 pm#119183

Participant

GB,
Where does your definition of grace come from?

This is scripture's and while it does include what is similar to yours it is far wider.

We should not just offer our narrow view lest it be used as a foundation underlying strange doctrine
Number 5485
Transliteration:
charis {khar'-ece}
Word Origin:
from 5463
TDNT:
9:372,1298
Part of Speech:
noun feminine
Usage in the KJV:
grace 130, favour 6, thanks 4, thank 4, thank 2192 3, pleasure 2, misc 7

Total: 156
Definition:
grace
that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
good will, loving-kindness, favour
of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
what is due to grace
the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
the token or proof of grace, benefit
a gift of grace
benefit, bounty
thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

January 27, 2009 at 12:42 am#119220

Participant

Gene Belthrop:

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The is (NO) Such thing as a (FREE WILL) if so where is it in mentioned in scripture,

Then you must be reading a different bible than mine because mine is always insisting God’s people choose the path of righteousness which clearly demonstrates they have a choice in the matter. I suppose you could believe the writers are delusional.

1 Peter 4:3(NIV):

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3For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.

And again:

James 4:4(NIV):

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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

And yet a third witness.

John 7:17(NIV):

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If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own..

So obviously mankind has the freedom to choose and are not puppets of God. You should not seek some scriptures and throw out others that disagree with your conclusions but work to come to a harmonious whole.

Gene Belthrop:

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Scripture says God (WORKS IN US) BOTH TO (WILL) and DO according to (HIS) GOOD PLEASURE .

He sure does by determining as what time and place we will exist which has nothing to do with predestination because he is our Creator and thus chooses when and where to make us. He also gets to choose if he wants us to be for noble or ignoble purpose because he is the potter and we are the pot which once again does not prove predestination or at least your version of it though it does determine who are God’s children and who are Satan’s since that is not determined randomly.

Gene Belthrop:

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One side say God knew the time place and our destination, “for whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed unto the image of his Dear son

I already addressed this as I pointed out that God knows all things before he created us and he also determined the place and time we exist. Therefore by His power, wisdom, and knowledge he chose a time and place for us to exist that could best bring each of us to him even as he knew some would choose not to come to Him.

Gene Belthrop:

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But scripture say “it is not within man to direct his paths”, and again “for the Carnal mind is (NOT) subject to the Laws of GOD neither indeed (CAN BE), so some how we Chose by our OWN WILLS, interesting no where in scripture does it say that

Again you read a different scripture and I do since the three scriptures above do say that. Still to limit it to saying you choose would be to ignore God’s power, knowledge, and wisdom as he does not leave the situation up the chance but chooses the time and place of one’s existence and of course creates us for the purpose he deems best for his plan which is to save as many as He can without doing evil as He cannot do evil.

January 27, 2009 at 1:02 am#119225

Participant

kerwin………Then show us (ONE) scripture that says our salvation is up to our own “FREE WILLS” or CHOICES< just one scripture that says that. None of what you have posted say that Brother. In Fact show me the Words "FREE WILL" in any Bible and if it is not there should we be teaching that.

The only Wills i SEE is must be Put to death, even Jesus” WILL was. Thy Kingdom come thy WILL be done , I don't see anyone else's WILL being done do you? There is no such thing as a FREE WILL all WILLS are influenced WILLS , and all the influence in the mind cause us to chose or react a certain way. Nothing FREE about it. Just cause and effect . If i offered you three choices of Pie you would chose the one that had the most influence on you, nothing FREE about it. Just past experience causing you to Chose the one the influences you the most.

love and peace to you and yours………………………..gene

January 27, 2009 at 1:44 am#119237

Participant

Gene Balthrop:

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I cited three but you choose not to believe them as it challenges your current worldview. I assure you God measures out to us as we choose to measure out to others and not as he makes us measure out to others. The question is do human beings make their own choices or does God choose for them. I say they make their own choices and you seem to say God chooses for them.

January 27, 2009 at 2:15 am#119246

Participant

Kerwin ………..Not one of those say “FREE WILL” or FREE CHOICE you are adding the FREE to them, but Jesus said He came to SET the CAPTIVES FREE if they were captives then how are you saying they were FREE, And again He said He lead a Host of CAPITIVES , CAPTIVE. No FREE WILL there Either. Men live in sin not because they are FREE Wills but they are held captive by Sin , what ever a man is captured by He is a slave of rather it be a sin, or the Spirit of GOD. He is lead by what in Him Nothing FREE about IT> YOU have produced no Scripture Showing we are FREE to Chose any thing. WE did not Chose God , GOD chose us , you can't even go the Jesus unless the father draw (greek drag) you. According to Jesus, so nothing FREE there is there. and the reason those who have GOD'S spirit in the chose GOD way is because “GREATER is HE that is IN you then He that is in the WORLD. Nothing Free About it. We can take (NO) credit for our salvation in any way (no boasting will ever get up in GOD face concerning SALVATION > I realize many hate the thought of that, they want to think they are saved you their own choices because of their PRIDE. But God has made sure that will never Happen, So He does it all by HIMSELF. So where is boasting then seeing you had nothing to do with it , it is excluded by the process. BY the Law of GRACE. So my confidence is not in my So-Called “FREE WILL” Choices, but in God who both calls and perfects me i am dead and it is no longer I who live But the Christos in me it lives. So who gets (ALL) The GLORY NOT (I), But GOD who lives in Me.

love and peace to you and yours…………………..gene

February 5, 2009 at 6:25 pm#120424