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I know this is a sensitive topic, and most of you probably have your personal opinions on government. However, I don't wan't this to be a place to conform the scriptures to our personal opinions, but rather that we can open our minds and look at this topic with a fresh mind seeking truth. I was a neo-conservative, then a libertarian. I used to twist the Word around to form to my political opinions, which was wrong. So I want to start with questions, not answers.
Anyway, instead of writing a novel right this instant, I'll start with two tidbits, and add and ask more things over time. Also, since this is a broad subject in itself, try to stay on topic. That means there shouldn't be three pages of “You're going to hell,” “No, you're going to hell” as often seen here.
Anyway, let's start changing our political ways to Yahweh's:
Taxes
The subject of taxes is pretty clear. Though it took awhile to get through my years of tax-hating, Jesus said it so clearly that it's hard to twist:“Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?”
But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, “Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites? Show Me the (E)coin used for the poll-tax.” And they brought Him a denarius. And He said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?”
They said to Him, “Caesar's.” Then He said to them,” Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's.”
– Matthew 20:17-21 (NASB)Governments, obedience, and God
The place I get a little confused is Romans 13. It certainly can't mean all governments are supported by God, because Jesus said “a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.” Does anyone have anything on this?Quote (MrBob @ Dec. 15 2005,06:29) I know this is a sensitive topic, and most of you probably have your personal opinions on government. However, I don't wan't this to be a place to conform the scriptures to our personal opinions, but rather that we can open our minds and look at this topic with a fresh mind seeking truth. I was a neo-conservative, then a libertarian. I used to twist the Word around to form to my political opinions, which was wrong. So I want to start with questions, not answers. Anyway, instead of writing a novel right this instant, I'll start with two tidbits, and add and ask more things over time. Also, since this is a broad subject in itself, try to stay on topic. That means there shouldn't be three pages of “You're going to hell,” “No, you're going to hell” as often seen here.
Anyway, let's start changing our political ways to Yahweh's:
Taxes
The subject of taxes is pretty clear. Though it took awhile to get through my years of tax-hating, Jesus said it so clearly that it's hard to twist:“Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?”
But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, “Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites? Show Me the (E)coin used for the poll-tax.” And they brought Him a denarius. And He said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?”
They said to Him, “Caesar's.” Then He said to them,” Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's.”
– Matthew 20:17-21 (NASB)Governments, obedience, and God
The place I get a little confused is Romans 13. It certainly can't mean all governments are supported by God, because Jesus said “a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.” Does anyone have anything on this?
Hi Mr Bob,
Welcome back. So the only real question is
“Are kingdoms established by God to be obeyed permanently?”No.Nothing on earth is permanent
Governments change every day. Kings die and their sons take over. The sons are overthrown and replaced by armies of invaders.
All of this happens and God allows it.
All he does say is obey the authorities who are now over you. You do not need to worry about making changes in that sitiuation or stop living in hope that better circumstances could ensue.
Wives obey husbands, Slaves obey Owners. Servants obey Masters etc etc.
Quote The place I get a little confused is Romans 13. It certainly can't mean all governments are supported by God, because Jesus said “a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.” Does anyone have anything on this?
ROMANS 13:1
“Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.”God is the ultimate authority of course. What he says, goes. All other authority is relative to God's authority. If something has authority, it is because Jehovah allows it.
So when God says to obey the superior authorities, the governements, the law makers, we are to do that, because we are to obey Jehovah, and he says to.
But what happens when man's laws conflict with Gods?
Do we do like the apostles who said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men,” or do we disregard our Creator and tremble at men?Mr. Bob. I'm a little confused as to why you would think any government is “supported” by God. Maybe the word “supported” is confusing me. He doesn't actively support or favor one government or one nation or one people over another. He is impartial, the BIBLE says. And everything in the Bible points to his governement (kingdom) as the one we should look to. Why would he look to a human government with favor?
There is a difference between allowing the governments to rule for the wellfare of everyone and to actively support one government. For the good of all, we are to obey the law, as Jehovah commands. But where the two conflict, I would say: Obey God.david.
Bumpity-bump! Great replies! Let's do some more!
Voting and Political Participation
I've come across some people that believe that since we are not of this world, it would be a sin to vote or have any political participation whatsoever. Scripture such as this passage are often used:1 John 2:15-17
Don’t love the world, neither the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the Father’s love isn’t in him.For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, isn’t the Father’s, but is the world’s. The world is passing away with its lusts, but he who does God’s will remains forever.But if this applies to politics, would this also apply to, say, jobs? “You can't have a job, because the business you work for is of the world.” Nonsense! We see elsewhere throughout the Word that believers do have jobs. Also, Daniel and his three buddies (Sorry, I can't be bothered to write their names
) worked for the government of Babylon under Nebuchanezzar. If that is not a sin, I cannot see how voting for the governor would be.From what I see there are two extremes: to live in a hole in order to avoid the world, or to become of the world by politics, like many at Liberty U.
Quote (MrBob @ Feb. 18 2006,05:34) Bumpity-bump! Great replies! Let's do some more! Voting and Political Participation
I've come across some people that believe that since we are not of this world, it would be a sin to vote or have any political participation whatsoever. Scripture such as this passage are often used:1 John 2:15-17
Don’t love the world, neither the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the Father’s love isn’t in him.For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, isn’t the Father’s, but is the world’s. The world is passing away with its lusts, but he who does God’s will remains forever.But if this applies to politics, would this also apply to, say, jobs? “You can't have a job, because the business you work for is of the world.” Nonsense! We see elsewhere throughout the Word that believers do have jobs. Also, Daniel and his three buddies (Sorry, I can't be bothered to write their names
) worked for the government of Babylon under Nebuchanezzar. If that is not a sin, I cannot see how voting for the governor would be.From what I see there are two extremes: to live in a hole in order to avoid the world, or to become of the world by politics, like many at Liberty U.
Hi MrBob,We have to eat and keep our strengh inorder to do the Father's work. Either steel or work, that's my options.
Government:
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Eph 6:20 For which I am an “ambassador” in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
1Co 5:9 I wrote to you in my letter to have no company with sexual sinners;
1Co 5:10 yet not at all meaning with the sexual sinners of this world, or with the covetous and extortioners, or with idolaters; for then you would have to leave the world.
1Co 5:11 But as it is, I wrote to you not to associate with anyone who is 'called a brother' who is a sexual sinner, or covetous, or an idolater, or a slanderer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner. Don't even eat with such a person.If you are my brother in the Lord and you turn and become an idolater, sexual sinner, or covetous, or an idolater, or a slanderer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner. Then I'm not to associate myself with you.
But with those who are outside the church, in this world you have no choice. You have to have dealings with them.
God provides our work so we can eat and do His work.
Did any of that make sense?
Coming to think of it, several people have been in government in the scriptures. E.g. Joseph of Egypt being second man to Pharoah. That's government and not even a democracy! Nehemiah and all those guys put in charge by the Babylonians/persians/Medes/Assyrians to oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the temple were government officials, were they not?
Furthermore, I have come to feel that righteous men and women are Salt of the earth and are needed in all aspects of life as long as we do not pepetrate or promote what goes against the will of God, or by our presence promote same. How else shall we put our lamps atop the hill, and not under a bushel, so to speak? At church, who do we really minister to? There is a time for fellowship and a time for ministry. And ministry takes place in the world, according to the Jesus model anyway. For me, work or volunteer work best provides me with that opportunity to regularly meet those who do not yet know the Lord and be salt among them.
Quote (kenrch @ Feb. 18 2006,09:50) Did any of that make sense?
The reason I mentioned jobs in this world was to compare to political participation. What you said about it made sense, but I don't see you point on political particpation was, sorry.
Cubes – I agree, we as believers are to go out into the world and minister. We just have to be level-headed and focused on what our real job is.
Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 18 2006,11:00) . . . I have come to feel that righteous men and women are Salt of the earth and are needed in all aspects of life as long as we do not pepetrate or promote what goes against the will of God, or by our presence promote same. How else shall we put our lamps atop the hill, and not under a bushel, so to speak? Right on!
Quote (MrBob @ Feb. 19 2006,02:25) Quote (kenrch @ Feb. 18 2006,09:50) Did any of that make sense?
The reason I mentioned jobs in this world was to compare to political participation. What you said about it made sense, but I don't see you point on political particpation was, sorry.Cubes – I agree, we as believers are to go out into the world and minister. We just have to be level-headed and focused on what our real job is.
Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 18 2006,11:00) . . . I have come to feel that righteous men and women are Salt of the earth and are needed in all aspects of life as long as we do not pepetrate or promote what goes against the will of God, or by our presence promote same. How else shall we put our lamps atop the hill, and not under a bushel, so to speak? Right on!
There's no need to apologize MrBob
If you were a citizen of the United States of America would you fight the war in Iraq? This is particpating in the government of the United States, is it not?
If a government ask to pay taxes, abide by it's laws, and anything else that does not conflict with God then it's alright by me.
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