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Quote I have received a few PM's from folks here, and they are utterly confused, discouraged, faith beaten-down, and ultimately questioning their religion all together. I hate to say, “I told you so….” but I will. However, David, he appeals to your intellect it is obvious. But you lack judgement and spiritual discernment in engaging him.
I'm actually quite startled to here this, as I had been to here you questioning things and to here Kejonn decide that Jesus wasn't the true Messiah. (He is still waiting for the “true Messiah”) as he said.
I didn't know people were so…in need of strengthening.Ok.
Not3, I want you to listen to what you are saying about tow. It is correct that he spews out a lot of information with NO DESIRE to discuss it. His aim is not to discuss it. He has no need.
And it's true, I do find it an intellectual challenge to attempt to explain to someone (who just doesn't get it) what the word “contradiction” means. I enjoy logic and pointing out the flaws in peoples thinking. It's hard to do that when they only want to speak and don't want to converse.
What Paul said was true. About Satan blinding the minds of the unbelievers. (2 Cor 4:4.) It's as though a veil is over their face, preventing them from seeing.
Quote But you lack judgement and spiritual discernment in engaging him.
If it would help people for me not to speak, I will quite speaking. But that only leaves him to go on unchallenged, which will only make him think he has some sort of truth. He does not.
Please, I asked before, for you to step aside (“leave this place”) and not entertain his words.
My aim, has always been the same on this forum. To sharpen myself. I am not really on here to tell the good news of the kingdom (mat 24:14) as is our commision. (Mat 28:19,20) I am here to strenghten myself.It that weakens others, then I should disist.
Quote You have received many gentle warnings about him, and yet it appears that you move forward without concern for your brother's and sister's here who are of weaker faith than you.
I'm sorry, and I really didn't know this was happening. Now, it seems many are speaking with him, not just me.
I did not know he was having this bad of an effect on one's here. I originally started the Gamaliel thread to move the discussion away from the negative and toward why we can believe.Quote So, now that I have brought this to your attention, do with it what you will. You are really the only one who encourages this stranger. A few other's have already seen through him.
I don't “see” through him. I see through Satan's veil that he has wrapped around his eyes. I do not see myself as “encouraging” him, but as largely, the only one who disagrees with him vocally. If he remains unchallenged, people who come on here will actually get the idea that what he's saying represents some kind of truth. It does not.Quote He cannot preach when he doesn't have a congregation.
Yet, people will continue to read his stuff even if they don't know how to respond. You, for example, said you would stop reading it, but you haven't. Personally, a part of me loves confrontation, unfortunately.Quote I'm all for free speech (without bullying), but consider this a gentle warning that you continue at your own peril and that of other's. Proverbs 26:20-28, in part
Without wood a fire goes out…
I thank you for the warning and especially for explaining how this is hurting the faith of some. I would love to actually discuss all the things he has brought up (without him) with you or whoever else has been shaken.
For example, it is really easy to say: Hey, there's all these “scholars” or “historians” in the first century who didn't write about Jesus. But upon further research, it is a very deceptive list, a list is made up of people who had no real reason to write about Jesus.
Quote he has only come to cast his net of doubt and confusion. He has accomplished this. He has succeeded in his mission.
I really can't believe those words. Please explain, Not3, what you have come to doubt or what you have become confused about. We could discuss this privately if you wish.david.
Hi David,
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
I have stopped reading Tow's stuff – I did take your advice. However, I decided to post what I did after receiving a 5th email regarding this stranger among us.
Quote But that only leaves him to go on unchallenged, which will only make him think he has some sort of truth. He does not.
I disagree. Folks will see him for what he is – a spouting faucet and nothing more. When one talks to himself, people usually stear clear.Quote Personally, a part of me loves confrontation, unfortunately.
I know. That is why I've asked you to pray about this. I'm not asking you to stop, per se, but only to consider what I have shared with you. It's no skin off of my nose necessarily. I enjoy a debate between two equally matched opponents. But this guy…..I don't know, he is doing harm instead of good, ya know what I'm saying?Quote I really can't believe those words. Please explain, Not3, what you have come to doubt or what you have become confused about. We could discuss this privately if you wish.
I can only say that I have been privy to some of the personal struggles of my brother's and sister's here, and I'm not at liberty to bring their concerns into public light. However, they may have courage to bring their questions to you? I don't know?David, thanks for listening and have a good night,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 13 2007,11:27) Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2007,11:31) Plurium Interrogationum slow down, unless you're afraid to discuss these things.
When you throw-up stuff from books, websites, and other resources, it's hard to “discuss” anything. Have you ever tried to carry on a conversation when your puking? It seems to me that Tow has never been here to discuss – he has only come to cast his net of doubt and confusion. He has accomplished this. He has succeeded in his mission.Actually my critique of Matthew uses very little from websites. I went through the whole book myself. I didn't realize it was such an undertaking. Should have started with Mark it is much shorter
. But Matthew was supposedly written specifically to convert Jews so I thought it would be a good place to start. The one about riding two donkeys is my favorite too. Quote I have received a few PM's from folks here, and they are utterly confused, discouraged, faith beaten-down, and ultimately questioning their religion all together. I hate to say, “I told you so….” but I will. I told people! But some people wanted the continue so you have what you have. Its not an easy thing to read these things. I know because I went through it.
If Christianity had been based on some other religion or been one on its own like Hinduism or something that would be one thing but it takes the Hebrew scriptures and turns them on an ear. Thats what anger me when I started seeing the truth. The sad thing is that the historical Jesus probably never did many of the things that twisted the Tanakh. It was likely Paul and his Judeo-Mithraism.
Quote However, David, he appeals to your intellect it is obvious. But you lack judgement and spiritual discernment in engaging him. You have received many gentle warnings about him, and yet it appears that you move forward without concern for your brother's and sister's here who are of weaker faith than you. So, now that I have brought this to your attention, do with it what you will. You are really the only one who encourages this stranger. A few other's have already seen through him. I encourage you to pray about continuing on with him. He cannot preach when he doesn't have a congregation. Wisdom.
Quote I don't know about other's, but I am not interested in what he has to say about Hebrews! I will not be looking in on that forum AT ALL. Of course, this is my choice. Other's are free to make their own choices. I'm all for free speech (without bullying), but consider this a gentle warning that you continue at your own peril and that of other's.
Proverbs 26:20-28, in part
Without wood a fire goes out…
Like a coating of glaze over earthenware are fervent lips with an evil heart.
A malicious man disguises himself with his lips,
but in his heart he harbors deceit.Though his speech is charming, do not believe him,
for seven abominations fill his heart.His malice may be concealed by deception,
but his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly.A lying tongue hates those it hurts,
and flattering mouth works ruin.Spiritual discernment is needed to walk further…..
My speech is charming? Thank you. But I don't bring any deceit. All I say can be backed by the Jewish bible. Well except for the various pagan mythologies inserted in Jesus' life story. Those have no basis in the Tanakh.Let me ask you: how many people here like that Mormonism wrote their own book based on the Christian belief system? Now you know how Jewish people feel about Christianity.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 06 2007,05:04) Ken I am so glad somebody else is realizing to shake of the Dust on our Shoes and say Goodbye to Him. You have been a Pillar on this website I must admit, and I do appreciate you. Even tho you don't completely understand how I celebrate the Sabbath, but that is all right. I do it in the Spirit and have done so for 12 years now. Since I walk in the Spirit every day is important to me. That I guess is somewhat hard to understand. Love is very important to me, and so is Faith, and the Fathers Holy Spirit, without those I could not be what I am. I have always loved People and in the past got involved with them. Now were I am old and sick, I have found new friends here on this Website. All of ours are dead or moved away. So I only have Family left, the computer has been a good tool to keep in touch with those that moved, and you here. Peace and Love Mrs.
Have you seen Ken again. I have not checked yet, but I do not think so, neither have I. I just want to say it again. Stop in the name of God.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2007,14:38) Quote I have received a few PM's from folks here, and they are utterly confused, discouraged, faith beaten-down, and ultimately questioning their religion all together. I hate to say, “I told you so….” but I will. However, David, he appeals to your intellect it is obvious. But you lack judgement and spiritual discernment in engaging him.
I'm actually quite startled to here this, as I had been to here you questioning things and to here Kejonn decide that Jesus wasn't the true Messiah. (He is still waiting for the “true Messiah”) as he said.
I didn't know people were so…in need of strengthening.
My “virtual ears'” were burning!I have not decided anything but doubt is still a powerful thing. I just wonder if Yeshua was the final Messiah or someone totally different that God had in mind? Maybe Yeshua will return at the time the final Messiah comes among us? I do not know and that is what I'm trying to find out. That is why I'm studying the various feasts. Something is missing in our understanding — both Jews and Christians. My quest is to discover who exactly Yeshua is because he said that the Tanach testified of him. If that is the case he is found there.
LG&LP,
KevinKejonn I do not understand why you want to do that? You do not belief that the New Testament is true? You know that is their word against what is written. And I tell you I rather go with Jesus any day. We have so much prove, even that there might be some things that were changed, but the main things are still present. When you take the whole picture the scriptures do line up. When you understand what they mean, not just reading them and saying that is wrong, pray about it, you will see. I have seen you come from the trinity doctrine, into the truth and out again into Jewish beliefs. I am sorry Kejonn I do not understand. I have a question for you, where you ever Baptized according to scripture? Have you received the Holy Spirit? It looks to me you were never grounded in the truth.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2007,07:38) What Paul said was true. About Satan blinding the minds of the unbelievers. (2 Cor 4:4.) It's as though a veil is over their face, preventing them from seeing.
Paul is right, I can hardly see the emperor's new clothes at all.Stuart
Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 14 2007,17:34) Kejonn I do not understand why you want to do that? You do not belief that the New Testament is true? You know that is their word against what is written. And I tell you I rather go with Jesus any day. We have so much prove, even that there might be some things that were changed, but the main things are still present. When you take the whole picture the scriptures do line up. When you understand what they mean, not just reading them and saying that is wrong, pray about it, you will see. I have seen you come from the trinity doctrine, into the truth and out again into Jewish beliefs. I am sorry Kejonn I do not understand. I have a question for you, where you ever Baptized according to scripture? Have you received the Holy Spirit? It looks to me you were never grounded in the truth. Peace and Love Mrs.
O I was thinking…the truth is in share and utter honesty…what ever it is…held by….The righteous stumbleth and the heart holdeth the Lord God righteous: Always
The righteous continually searcheth his house,
to remove utterly all iniquity done by him in error
They that fear the Lord shall rise to life eternal,
And their life shall be in the light of the Lord,
and shall come to an end no more.And this…LG&LP,
God bless mrs truth
StuPosted on Nov. 14 2007,18:58
Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2007,07:38)
What Paul said was true. About Satan blinding the minds of the unbelievers. (2 Cor 4:4.) It's as though a veil is over their face, preventing them from seeing.Paul is right, I can hardly see the emperor's new clothes at all.
Stuart
neither can i.
but im not talking about paul.
i'm talking about darwinists and scientists.
this is the method scientists use. they try to understand things around them by the perceptions of their senses. using information gathered through their senses they develop hypothesis to explain the observed phenomena. this process is not perfect because our sense perceptions are themselves imperfect. our senses only give a small sample of the actual data. for example the eyes can only see within a restricted range of the spectrum. there are light waves above the colors we can see and the are also light waves below the colors we can see. we can only see one small band. we can also only see a short distance, after some distance everything becomes blurred and indistinct. in this way the information coming thru our eyes is not perfect because we can only see a very limited amount of the actual information. similar limitations apply to all our other senses. not only are the senses imperfect, but i am also imperfect. if i have a hypothesis which i am anxious to prove the tendency is for me to cheat. because i want some recognition by proving my particular theory i will tend to ignore the evidence that doesn't support my theory and i will report the evidence which does. this tendency to cheat is within us all. and i am NOT even considering the financial/corporate angle, how so many researches are funded by powerful organisations who are very very interested. in so many ways our so-called scientific knowledge is imperfect.
i wonder if u've heard of the analogy of Dr. Frog?
“A frog often lives in a well. This particular Dr. Frog lives in a well that is one meter wide, it's in the middle of a field and above the well is a tree. Dr. Frog has spent his whole life in that well. He has no experience beyond that one meter diameter well. But he has seen so much through the hole in the top of his well! Sometimes he sees nice blue sky and trees with green leaves, sometimes he sees clouds in the sky, sometimes rain comes through the top of his well, sometimes the leaves from the tree fall into his well. So Dr. Frog has experienced many things, he's seen so much. As a result of all of his observation he has been able to come up with his own particular universal view, “The universe according to Dr. Frog.” He doesn't know there is any more than he has seen. He has only seen what is visible through the hole in the top of his well, so he thinks that's all there is, he thinks that's the universe. He has developed so much philosophy, so many theories to describe what is happening in his universe. But what can he see? What is the value of his conclusions? The difficulty is if somebody comes from outside to tell him about the actual universe he won't be able to understand it because it's outside the scope of his world.
One day another frog hopped into Dr. Frog's well. This frog had not been confined to a one metre wide well for his whole life, he had travelled quite a bit, he'd even seen the Pacific Ocean. So he tried to explain to Dr. Frog, “My dear friend, I have seen such a vast mass of water, it is called the Pacific Ocean.” So Dr. Frog said, “Yes. Please explain it to me.” But he was thinking in terms of the water in his well, so he thought, “Perhaps it's twice as big as my well, perhaps three times as big as my well, maybe it is even five times bigger.” In this way he tried to understand the Pacific Ocean but it was impossible because he can't even conceive of the greatness of the Pacific Ocean.”
many scientists are something like Dr. Frog. they are confident they have a clear understanding of the universe around them. after all they have such big expensive equipment, they get so many big grants from the government and they have so many respectable predecessor scientists who have put forward so many nice hypothesises which they now accept as facts. however, in reality, their knowledge is comparable to Dr. Frog's knowledge of his universe. of course there are “truths” in some of the scientific theories but there are also defects: the difficulty of the senses being imperfect, the tendency to make mistakes, the tendency to cheat, the problem of being illusioned etc .
western scientific knowledge has put forward a description of the universe based on the planets orbiting around the sun and through our experimental observations it appears the planets do orbit around the sun or that the sun orbits around the planets. because we really don't know what our position is in the universe there are many models which are equally valid in that they explain the observed evidence. nowadays we only seriously consider one model, the heliocentric or sun-centred model, but in the past scientists and philosophers also considered geocentric or earth-centred models. so far there is no way of proving conclusively one or the other by our experience because we can't really tell what this earth is doing FROM WHERE WE ARE. we look into the sky and we see so many other planets and stars moving, but everything is moving relative to everything else. so we don't really know what is moving. we are right in the middle of it all, we can't really see what's happening.
if you're very small and inside a very large piece of machinery it might be difficult to understand what the machine is doing. if, however, you are in a position where you can see the whole machine, you can see what is going into it and what is coming out at the other end, it's not difficult to understand what it's doing. from our position in the universe we can't see it in a very broad way, we can only see some small features, we have fragmental knowledge only. there are many things in the universe we can't see at all. if we go back to Dr. Frog, he can speculate on so many things about what is going on in the universe but there are so many things he can't see at all. there could be a tractor plowing the field but he can only hear the noise coming into his well. he can speculate, “what is this noise?” he has heard a fly or a bee making a similar but softer noise so he may think the noise is coming from a big fly or a big bee that he can't see. that's alright, it's a reasonable hypothesis considering his experience, he has never seen a tractor and he will never see one either, the tractor won't come into his well. he will just sometimes hear the noise when the farmer is plowing the field, that's all.
i believe in a Creator but it is a totally personal belief, coming not from observation of my 5 senses, not from archaeological proof that shows up every now and then, or someone's else experience etc. i know there is a GOD from my own personal experience. i know HE exists becos we actually communicate. that is something i will not impose on u if u don't believe me. but i will say that in general, people around me (non-believers included) believe me to be of sound mind, stable temperament, acceptable intelligence.
i believe God speaks to us only when we really really want to listen. i heard nothing for years. and was actually wishing i wud hear nothing. for wat wud be better than to live life and bear no consequences for your actions. do as you will becos u know wat, there's no God, there's no plan, there's just tons of people and random things happening. well that was how i was, and how wrong cud i be. but like i said, u don't have to believe me, thats ur own perogative. but u can't tell me there's no God either.
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Truth comes to us all…..eventually.
I think we all should feel free to uncover any rock we find. There is a freedom in searching God out. What we find may startle some; yes, it may sway other's. Still some it may make them leave the faith altogether – wondering what “truth” there can possibly be when Jesus' closest friends and brother's do not know him? And yet, faith remains; being sure of what you do not see…….
Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Maybe now we know why.
Mandy
Tow,
Whether you are sent by evil to deceive us, or sent by good to teach us, it is really not for me to say (like I have been). For this I apologize. The reason I am being so forthright now is because I realize that I was in error. Yes, it is true that God warned me concerning your message. But perhaps the warning was just for me. It is true, and I'll admit, that my faith is weak as my body is weak right now. It appears that other's are also in this boat-a-float with me.
I encourage those who are shaken to trust in their Lord and to do more praying, praising, and bible study than spending time here. Listening to God's words bring peace always. Listening to man's words can be good, but when you are weak it is not a good idea. That is all I will say on this and encourage those who need help in their faith to reach out to other's here who know God. For myself, I am resting in faith. That is all I have to give right now.
Love to my brother's and sister's,
MandyQuote I encourage those who are shaken to trust in their Lord and to do more praying, praising, and bible study than spending time here. What specifically did either of these people say that has “shaken” you or anyone? I'd really like to know.
david
Doubt has come on a few occassions, but I have not been moved. I will let other's answer for themselves, if they wish. Thanks, David.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 14 2007,12:00) Tow, Whether you are sent by evil to deceive us, or sent by good to teach us, it is really not for me to say (like I have been). For this I apologize. The reason I am being so forthright now is because I realize that I was in error. Yes, it is true that God warned me concerning your message. But perhaps the warning was just for me. It is true, and I'll admit, that my faith is weak as my body is weak right now. It appears that other's are also in this boat-a-float with me.
I encourage those who are shaken to trust in their Lord and to do more praying, praising, and bible study than spending time here. Listening to God's words bring peace always. Listening to man's words can be good, but when you are weak it is not a good idea. That is all I will say on this and encourage those who need help in their faith to reach out to other's here who know God. For myself, I am resting in faith. That is all I have to give right now.
Love to my brother's and sister's,
Mandy
Thank you. At one time I received a message from a board member here who told me some things and I was going to withdraw but it seems that others wanted me to continue. Thus I gave warnings and even asked if there was any way to make private threads so only the interested could join in.I assure you I am not here to deceive. What I point out can be backed with the Tanakh except for where I merely point out conflicts within the GT itself.
David has encouraged some to discuss some of the doubts I have raised. Obviously you can do that privately via PM or email or you can do it in threads. If you or someone else opens a new thread (or threads) to speak about some of what I have presented just request that I do not participate in them and I will respect that request.
Quote Doubt has come on a few occassions, but I have not been moved. I will let other's answer for themselves, if they wish. Thanks, David. PM me if you like. I'd really like to know specifically what he said. We could all use strenghtening. If it is something about Matthew, for example, what specifically?
Quote If you or someone else opens a new thread (or threads) to speak about some of what I have presented just request that I do not participate in them and I will respect that request. –towshab.
Thankyou. This is…nice of you.
Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2007,18:51) Quote If you or someone else opens a new thread (or threads) to speak about some of what I have presented just request that I do not participate in them and I will respect that request. –towshab.
Thankyou. This is…nice of you.
David,I am not a evil satan man so don't act so surprised
. There are many people the world over who believe in the historical Jesus who deny the Christian bible Jesus.I can recall a time in my life when I thought that John Shelby Spong was a spawn of the devil. Now many years later I see him as someone who was able to shed himself of the fear of denying much of what he read in the Christian bible. I cannot agree with him though that Christianity needs to be reformed. If one sheds so many of the stories found in the Christian bible can one still be called a Christian? I believe in the historical Jesus and many of his teachings are spot-on but I would not call myself a Christian because I believe these things.
Spong and others like him need to take the next step and either follow the Hebrew scriptures, some other religion, or become deists. To continue to claim they are Christians while denying so much of what they find in the Christian bible is contradictory IMO.
Hi What Counts
Quote i'm talking about darwinists and scientists. this is the method scientists use. they try to understand things around them by the perceptions of their senses. using information gathered through their senses they develop hypothesis to explain the observed phenomena. this process is not perfect because our sense perceptions are themselves imperfect. our senses only give a small sample of the actual data. for example the eyes can only see within a restricted range of the spectrum. there are light waves above the colors we can see and the are also light waves below the colors we can see. we can only see one small band. we can also only see a short distance, after some distance everything becomes blurred and indistinct. in this way the information coming thru our eyes is not perfect because we can only see a very limited amount of the actual information. similar limitations apply to all our other senses. In this paragraph you have described facts that scientists have discovered that are beyond our unaided senses!
Quote not only are the senses imperfect, but i am also imperfect. if i have a hypothesis which i am anxious to prove the tendency is for me to cheat. because i want some recognition by proving my particular theory i will tend to ignore the evidence that doesn't support my theory and i will report the evidence which does. this tendency to cheat is within us all. Yes I often think that creationists should be a bit more careful about bearing so much false witness.
Quote in so many ways our so-called scientific knowledge is imperfect. No one has ever claimed perfection for science – actually the opposite. There is grey at the edges, unlike in the mathematical and religious worlds. Science as a whole does claim to have the most rigorous and useful explanations. More than that, science works, and it makes the kinds of prophecies that leave the bible looking like a third-rate stage illusionist.
Stuart
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