Good and Evil

Participant

I understand what you are saying…but the fact of the matter is..the bible says God does not try us with [moral] evil…and that [moral] evil can not come from him because he is pure and ultimately is love…and HE NEVER took or takes responsibility for the type of evil that originated with the Devil…because he is pure and is not capable of it

This is what you are not understanding from my view..you say that my life will be so much easier when i realize that God is in complete control of it…and that since God is in control I can never turn away from him

I say I have already come to that conclusion…the difference is… is that at anytime I know I can willfully turn from God…but because I choose to let him lead me..that will never happen…

There is not much difference in what we are saying..honestly

June 20, 2008 at 5:51 pm#93713

Participant

Evil is not a “thing” – like a rock or electricity. You can't have a jar of evil! Rather, evil is something that occurs, like running. Evil has no existence of its own – it is really a lack in a good thing. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole – but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all that existed was good. One of the good things that God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or non-good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a “thing” that required God to create it.

If I were to ask the average person “does cold exist?” – his/her answer would likely be yes. However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist. Darkness is the absence of light. Similarly, evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

June 20, 2008 at 7:42 pm#93733

Participant

DK……if you check it out you will find the Word expressed in Genesis for good and evil, is functional and dysfunctional , And God saw that it was Functional is the more truer word according Benners book on the mechanical translation of genesis. Any way in my opinion God is building value in us through all the good and evil experiences we go through i think everyone is learning this lesson rather they realize it or not at this time.

peace………..gene

June 21, 2008 at 12:20 am#93752

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 21 2008,07:42)

peace………..gene

Functional…yes…in that it can occur…not that it was created…[evil that is]…the bible is clear brother…moral, sinful, fleshly evil…did not originate with GOD…that originated with the enemy…GOD can neither be tried with it nor does he try us with it…

June 21, 2008 at 12:21 am#93753

Participant

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 21 2008,05:51)

This is the best way I can explain it…

June 23, 2008 at 5:09 pm#93775

Participant

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 21 2008,12:20)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 21 2008,07:42)

peace………..gene

Hi DK welcome back to Heaven net .
Again this whole creation is of cause and effects(affects also). By eating the fruit of tree of knowledge of good and evil, man has come under the influence of evil or bad. Now we know the difference of good and bad or evil. But every thing is known to God, Satan is not the creator of any thing but he exploits us to orient towards evil or bad that too because of our inner nature of sin in us after the fall of Adam.
Peace to you
Adam

June 23, 2008 at 5:30 pm#93780

chosenone

Participant

Good post Gene, may I add my opinion as well?

The tree was called “The knowledge of good and evil.” Notice Gen.3:22. Behold! “The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil.” (God speaking)
If they hadn't eaten the fruit, we would have no knowledge of “good”. Just imagine… If we were placed in paradise without any knowldge of “good”, we would just exist, never realising how good a place we were in, just taking everything for granted, never praising God for His love and paradise He placed us in!
This is why it was Gods' intention that they ate of the forbidden fruit, (Eph.1:11) “God is operating “ALL” in accord to the councel of His will”.
You see, it is necessary that we experience “evil”, to appreciate “good”. We cannot know one without the other, the two go hand in hand. God wants us to know the great blessings He has in store for us, that we will really appreciate it when we are finally there. We will praise and glorify our Creator, knowing how great a blessing this is, even though we had to endure the “evil” to appreciate this gift of “good”.
In summary, it was a great blessing to us, that Adam and Eve ate the fruit of tree of “the knowledge of good and evil”.

Blessings.

June 23, 2008 at 5:54 pm#93783

Irene

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 21 2008,05:02)

DK……everything originates with God, there is nothing that exists without Him, He takes full responsibility for all Good and evil. Or how could He forgive it then. You are limiting God and giving Him only half the credit He has. If you understood that Evil is as necessary as Good is in the balance of Life you would see where we are coming from. God deliberately caused Adam and Eve To fail, in order for them to experience first hand Evil and Good. It was no accident that took place. If it was then God is not (all knowing) and doest not know the (end from the beginning) as scripture says He does. Don't kid yourself Evil is Just as nessary as Good they define each other, without the one you can know the other.

Think about it, it all makes sense….God is SOVEREIGN in all things then and NOW.

IMO….gene

Gene One thing that I like to say to this is, I do not think that we need evil to balance things out. That is to say that God has evil in Him, and He is all loving and without Sin. He can't even look on Sin. I do not think that He purposely created evil. What I do believe is, because He is all knowing and knew that Lucifer would start getting jealous and rebelled and evil came into being.
One more thing all evil will be put away in the millinium and all good only will be taught by Jesus. After the millinium Satan will be loosed again and all will be tested. But in the end all evil will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. No more evil.
Peace and Love Irene

June 23, 2008 at 8:08 pm#93806

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ June 24 2008,05:30)

Good post Gene, may I add my opinion as well?

Blessings.

You do realize GOD was being satirical when he made that statement at Gen 3:22…

The question here is does GOD choose to foreknow EVERYTHING?

And if does that would mean, like you are saying, that he knew full well what Adam and Eve would do and he essentially planned it…

So lets see what the bible says on this…I will be back later

June 24, 2008 at 2:36 am#93840

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ June 24 2008,05:30)

Good post Gene, may I add my opinion as well?

Blessings.

Nice post brother Jerry,
God is in full control of every thing in this universe. People think that Satan is another great fellow who created evil or sin. They think that this fellow controls their lives. What a pathetic way to understand scriptures! God the creator said there is no one besides Him when He created this whole universe. You rightly said that without knowing evil we could have not understood the real meaning of goodness of God. People think that God is nothing do with evil in this world only Satan is the creator of evil or sin. If Satan is so big then we are making God ineffective in this world.
Peace to you
Adam

June 24, 2008 at 12:17 pm#93925

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ June 24 2008,14:36)

Quote (chosenone @ June 24 2008,05:30)

Good post Gene, may I add my opinion as well?

Blessings.

Knowbody thinks satan controls thier lives…knowbody especially me understands scriptures that way…

GM brother…thats straight propaganda and a classic AD HOMINEM attack on what I spoke in this thread…that type of posts limits your credibility brother

June 24, 2008 at 1:22 pm#93926

Participant

The Scriptures show that God extends to such creatures the privilege and responsibility of free choice, of exercising free moral agency (De 30:19, 20; Jos 24:15), thereby making them accountable for their acts. (Ge 2:16, 17; 3:11-19; Ro 14:10-12; Heb 4:13) They are thus not mere automatons, or robots. Man could not truly have been created in “God’s image” if he were not a free moral agent. (Ge 1:26, 27) Logically, there should be no conflict between God’s foreknowledge (as well as his foreordaining) and the free moral agency of his intelligent creatures.

This concept would mean that, prior to creating angels or earthling man, God exercised his powers of foreknowledge and foresaw and foreknew all that would result from such creation, including the rebellion of one of his spirit sons, the subsequent rebellion of the first human pair in Eden (Ge 3:1-6; Joh 8:44), and all the bad consequences of such rebellion down to and beyond this present day. This would necessarily mean that all the wickedness that history has recorded (the crime and immorality, oppression and resultant suffering, lying and hypocrisy, false worship and idolatry) once existed, before creation’s beginning, only in the mind of God, in the form of his foreknowledge of the future in all of its minutest details.

If the Creator of mankind had indeed exercised his power to foreknow all that history has seen since man’s creation, then the full weight of all the wickedness thereafter resulting was deliberately set in motion by God when he spoke the words: “Let us make man.” (Ge 1:26) These facts bring into question the reasonableness and consistency of the predestinarian concept; particularly so, since the disciple James shows that disorder and other vile things do not originate from God’s heavenly presence but are “earthly, animal, demonic” in source.—Jas 3:14-18.

The alternative to predestinarianism, the selective or discretionary exercise of God’s powers of foreknowledge, would have to harmonize with God’s own righteous standards and be consistent with what he reveals of himself in his Word. In contrast with the theory of predestinarianism, a number of texts point to an examination by God of a situation then current and a decision made on the basis of such examination.

Thus, at Genesis 11:5-8 God is described as directing his attention earthward, surveying the situation at Babel, and, at that time, determining the action to be taken to break up the unrighteous project there. After wickedness developed at Sodom and Gomorrah, GOD advised Abraham of his decision to investigate (by means of his angels) to “see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.” (Ge 18:20-22; 19:1) God spoke of ‘becoming acquainted with Abraham,’ and after Abraham went to the point of attempting to sacrifice Isaac, GOD said, “For now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”—Ge 18:19; 22:11, 12; compare Ne 9:7, 8; Ga 4:9.

Selective foreknowledge means that God could choose not to foreknow indiscriminately all the future acts of his creatures. This would mean that, rather than all history from creation onward being a mere rerun of what had already been foreseen and foreordained, God could with all sincerity set before the first human pair the prospect of everlasting life in an earth free from wickedness. His instructions to his first human son and daughter to act as his perfect and sinless agents in filling the earth with their offspring and making it a paradise, as well as exercising control over the animal creation, could thus be expressed as the grant of a truly loving privilege and as his genuine desire toward them—not merely as the giving of a commission that, on their part, was foredoomed to failure. God’s arranging for a test by means of “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” and his creation of “the tree of life” in the garden of Eden also would not be meaningless or cynical acts, made so by his foreknowing that the human pair would sin and never be able to eat of “the tree of life.”—Ge 1:28; 2:7-9, 15-17; 3:22-24.

To offer something very desirable to another person on conditions known beforehand to be unreachable is recognized as both hypocritical and cruel. The prospect of everlasting life is presented in God’s Word as a goal for all persons, one possible to attain. After urging his listeners to ‘keep on asking and seeking’ good things from God, Jesus pointed out that a father does not give a stone or a serpent to his child that asks for bread or a fish. Showing his Father’s view of disappointing the legitimate hopes of a person, Jesus then said: “Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?”—Mt 7:7-11.

Thus, the invitations and opportunities to receive benefits and everlasting blessings set before all men by God are bona fide. (Mt 21:22; Jas 1:5, 6) He can in all sincerity urge men to ‘turn back from transgression and keep living,’ as he did with the people of Israel. (Eze 18:23, 30-32; compare Jer 29:11, 12.) Logically, he could not do this if he foreknew that they were individually destined to die in wickedness. (Compare Ac 17:30, 31; 1Ti 2:3, 4.) As GOD told Israel: “Nor said I to the seed of Jacob, ‘Seek me simply for nothing, you people.’ I am Jehovah, speaking what is righteous, telling what is upright. . . . Turn to me and be saved, all you at the ends of the earth.”—Isa 45:19-22.

In a similar vein, the apostle Peter writes: “GOD is not slow respecting his promise [of the coming day of reckoning], as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” (2Pe 3:9) If God already foreknew and foreordained millenniums in advance precisely which individuals would receive eternal salvation and which individuals would receive eternal destruction, it may well be asked how meaningful such ‘patience’ of God could be and how genuine his desire could be that ‘all attain to repentance.’ The inspired apostle John wrote that “God is love,” and the apostle Paul states that love “hopes all things.” (1Jo 4:8; 1Co 13:4, 7) It is in harmony with this outstanding, divine quality that God should exercise a genuinely open, kindly attitude toward all persons, he being desirous of their gaining salvation, until they prove themselves unworthy, beyond hope. (Compare 2Pe 3:9; Heb 6:4-12.) Thus, the apostle Paul speaks of “the kindly quality of God [that] is trying to lead you to repentance.”—Ro 2:4-6.

Finally if, by God’s foreknowledge, the opportunity to receive the benefits of Christ Jesus’ ransom sacrifice were already irrevocably sealed off from some, perhaps for millions of individuals, even before their birth, so that such ones could never prove worthy, it could not truly be said that the ransom was made available to all men. (2Co 5:14, 15; 1Ti 2:5, 6; Heb 2:9) The impartiality of God is clearly no mere figure of speech. “In every nation the man that fears [God] and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” (Ac 10:34, 35; De 10:17; Ro 2:11) The option is actually and genuinely open to all men “to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us.” (Ac 17:26, 27) There is no empty hope or hollow promise set forth, therefore, in the divine exhortation at the end of the book of Revelation inviting: “Let anyone hearing say: ‘Come!’ And let anyone thirsting come; let a
nyone that wishes take life’s water free.”—Re 22:17.

June 24, 2008 at 3:49 pm#93939

Participant

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 25 2008,00:17)

Quote (gollamudi @ June 24 2008,14:36)

Quote (chosenone @ June 24 2008,05:30)

Good post Gene, may I add my opinion as well?

Blessings.

Knowbody thinks satan controls thier lives…knowbody especially me understands scriptures that way…

GM brother…thats straight propaganda and a classic AD HOMINEM attack on what I spoke in this thread…that type of posts limits your credibility brother

Hi DK,
Sorry, I never meant my post was directed towards you. I wanted to convey that God is the one having full control on our lives not Satan. He doesn't have any control on us unless it is given by God.

June 24, 2008 at 3:53 pm#93940

Participant

DK…..hate to blow away your theory , but you have failded to take this in concederation , ” the CARNAL Mind is enemy to God, not subject to his laws netiher indeed CAN BE”< do you throw out that scripture then, if we are born with this carnal mind thats a enemy of God and not subject to his ways , how is that you say man by his so called (FREE CHOICE) can chooses what pleases God on His own.

Haven't you noticed there is no scripture that says man has a (free) choice no where in the bible.

Your comming from a typical “Christain” view point, which is, (I) can act as a God (myself) and decide (myself) whats right and whats wrong and can perfect (myself) by (my own) ability to choose whats good. You are not seening the absolute Sovernity of the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, who creates all things by the council of his (OWN WILL) not yours or my so called (FREE WILL) anything.

God (COMMANDS His childern Like a loving father would to do right He doesn't ask them if they on there own with there limited knowledge, decide for themselves to. Does it not say “there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end is sin and death. You need to conceder all the scriptures that deal with this subject not just one side of the picture. True righteousness is a (CREATION) no a personal (FREE WILL) Choice, but a creation, “for you are created unto righteousness”.

And again for He (GOD) WORKS in us to (WILL) and do of His good pleasure. God the FAther is a whole lot more powerful then you think, and he never did leave right and wrong choices to man kind, He commandes and creates them in us. Your give yourself to much credit my freind.

Peace ………gene

June 24, 2008 at 4:06 pm#93942

Participant

That's wonderful post my brother Gene,I can not stop appreciating that. I like your way of telling these words repeatedly “the CARNAL Mind is enemy to God, not subject to his laws neither indeed CAN BE” and “for He (GOD) WORKS in us to (WILL) and do of His good pleasure”.
Peace to you
Adam

June 24, 2008 at 4:29 pm#93949

Participant

DK……Your comming from a perspective that some how God gave all man kind this ability to see and understand everything and therefore he is capable of the right choices, (WRONG) assumption on your part. ” O” that there were an heart in them”, but you see there is not that kind of heart in them, and again “God looked for (ONE) rightious man but what did He say, “no not (ONE), wherefore He took it upon His own arm to (BRING SALVATION), what peace in knowing that Salvation is no dependent on our so call “FREE WILL” but upto Him who decides to Save us Himself through the effectual working of His Spirit and Power.

Peace………gene

June 24, 2008 at 5:00 pm#93954

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2008,03:53)

Haven't you noticed there is no scripture that says man has a (free) choice no where in the bible.

Peace ………gene

Gene..you always you this scripture but you never give it in context…

Let look at this scripture in context and see what paul is saying..

Romans 8:5-12… 5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[a] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Notice brothers…what paul prefaces your “carnal mind” scripture by saying in verse 5..He shows contrasts between the way the righteous and unrighteous think and live…

In verse 9 he tells us what he means by verse 7 which you quote…”You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD LIVES IN YOU”

So we easily see here this is simply a contrast between the fleshly mind and the spiritual….The fact that he talks about the way each type of person, who posses these minds, chooses to live shows FREE WILL

June 24, 2008 at 5:09 pm#93956

Participant

Philippians 3:3…3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh

Notice how Paul says we, “PUT no confidence inthe flesh”..he is showing choice.

Romans 8:4…4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Same basic comments

Romans 7:15-28….15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Same Comments

1 Cor 2:14,15….14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

June 25, 2008 at 1:59 am#94025