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Thanks, 94, for researching this. Nevertheless, the children were wounded at the very least. The crime doesn't seem to fit the punishment if you ask me.
Where's the eye-rolling smiley when you need it? Seriously, that was not the best cover-up job I've seen 94. Perhaps it makes you feel better about the passage — that your God would not do this — but it is what it is.
You listed the Blue Letter Lexicon of the word “baqa” and it pretty much means cleaving or ripping open. So if they lived, they may have been in worse shape then dying. Maimed for life, is that a better outcome than death? I suppose in some instances, but either result shows a brutal response that far outweighs the infraction. Here, lets imagine what the results were:
Of course, there was no modern medicine or plastic surgery back then so these mught look pretty tame. Here is the Judaica Press Translation:
- 24. And he turned around and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of God. And two she-bears came out of the forest and tore apart forty-two boys of them.
Here is the NET version
When he turned around and saw them, he called God’s judgment down on them. 1 Two female bears came out of the woods and ripped forty-two of the boys to pieces.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 22 2008,11:19) Thanks, 94, for researching this. Nevertheless, the children were wounded at the very least. The crime doesn't seem to fit the punishment if you ask me.
Hi Mandy:I know what you are saying, but if these children learned through this lesson not to mock God's prophets then God has accomplished what is intended.
It may be a hard lesson, but if they have learned from it, they will have benefited.
But as for your thanking me for doing this research, I can just say that you are welcome. When someone brings something up like this, it gives me the opportunity to study and learn from what is being asked. I don't know everything. I am still learning.
Quote (kejonn @ April 22 2008,11:36) I apologize to those with weak stomachs 
.
Yes, and I believe that you need to appologize to God. Again, as you seem to do quite regularly, you jump to conclusions without seeking God or doing some research on what is being said.You thought that the scripture stated that God killed the children, and now you are coming with these gross scenes.
Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,18:46) Quote (kejonn @ April 22 2008,11:36) I apologize to those with weak stomachs .
Yes, and I believe that you need to appologize to God. Again, as you seem to do quite regularly, you jump to conclusions without seeking God or doing some research on what is being said.You thought that the scripture stated that God killed the children, and now you are coming with these gross scenes.
I've done research on this passage. Even the Judaica Press translation, a Jewish work, translates it as “tore apart”. So no apology to God is necessary as I don't believe for one instant that God did this. It is a story of folk lore and legend, like the little boy who cried wolf.Quote (kejonn @ April 22 2008,11:59) Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,18:46) Quote (kejonn @ April 22 2008,11:36) I apologize to those with weak stomachs .
Yes, and I believe that you need to appologize to God. Again, as you seem to do quite regularly, you jump to conclusions without seeking God or doing some research on what is being said.You thought that the scripture stated that God killed the children, and now you are coming with these gross scenes.
I've done research on this passage. Even the Judaica Press translation, a Jewish work, translates it as “tore apart”. So no apology to God is necessary as I don't believe for one instant that God did this. It is a story of folk lore and legend, like the little boy who cried wolf.
If you had done the research, then why did you state that God had killed the children?I can see that your intent is not to come and seek understanding but to destroy, and so, I don't want to spend any more time sharing any of my understanding of the scriptures with you. Jesus warned me of the likes of people like you.
If you only believe that there is a God and don't have a personal relationship with Him you aren't qualified to teach me anything about Him.
I know who he is and someday, one way or the other, you will also know.
I don't intend to respond to any more of your posts.
Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,19:22) Quote (kejonn @ April 22 2008,11:59) Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,18:46) Quote (kejonn @ April 22 2008,11:36) I apologize to those with weak stomachs .
Yes, and I believe that you need to appologize to God. Again, as you seem to do quite regularly, you jump to conclusions without seeking God or doing some research on what is being said.You thought that the scripture stated that God killed the children, and now you are coming with these gross scenes.
I've done research on this passage. Even the Judaica Press translation, a Jewish work, translates it as “tore apart”. So no apology to God is necessary as I don't believe for one instant that God did this. It is a story of folk lore and legend, like the little boy who cried wolf.
If you had done the research, then why did you state that God had killed the children?
What part of “tore apart” equates to something less than death? I was posting pictures of bear mauling victims to show that your option was not much better.Quote I can see that your intent is not to come and seek understanding but to destroy, and so, I don't want to spend any more time sharing any of my understanding of the scriptures with you. Jesus warned me of the likes of people like you.
What, people who dislike a maligned view of a benevolent Creator? That is fine, I will stand up for my God so He will stop being misrepresented as brutal and malicious.Quote If you only believe that there is a God and don't have a personal relationship with Him you aren't qualified to teach me anything about Him. I know who he is and someday, one way or the other, you will also know.
I don't intend to respond to any more of your posts.
I understand. But I am afraid that you are defending bronze age Jewish priests, not God. God would not do many of the things written of Him in the OT. Sorry, but I cannot see my God as a bigger version of a brutal human tyrant.Quote (kejonn @ April 22 2008,12:32) Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,19:22) Quote (kejonn @ April 22 2008,11:59) Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,18:46) Quote (kejonn @ April 22 2008,11:36) I apologize to those with weak stomachs .
Yes, and I believe that you need to appologize to God. Again, as you seem to do quite regularly, you jump to conclusions without seeking God or doing some research on what is being said.You thought that the scripture stated that God killed the children, and now you are coming with these gross scenes.
I've done research on this passage. Even the Judaica Press translation, a Jewish work, translates it as “tore apart”. So no apology to God is necessary as I don't believe for one instant that God did this. It is a story of folk lore and legend, like the little boy who cried wolf.
If you had done the research, then why did you state that God had killed the children?
What part of “tore apart” equates to something less than death? I was posting pictures of bear mauling victims to show that your option was not much better.Quote I can see that your intent is not to come and seek understanding but to destroy, and so, I don't want to spend any more time sharing any of my understanding of the scriptures with you. Jesus warned me of the likes of people like you.
What, people who dislike a maligned view of a benevolent Creator? That is fine, I will stand up for my God so He will stop being misrepresented as brutal and malicious.Quote If you only believe that there is a God and don't have a personal relationship with Him you aren't qualified to teach me anything about Him. I know who he is and someday, one way or the other, you will also know.
I don't intend to respond to any more of your posts.
I understand. But I am afraid that you are defending bronze age Jewish priests, not God. God would not do many of the things written of Him in the OT. Sorry, but I cannot see my God as a bigger version of a brutal human tyrant.
kejonnWith all due respect. If your God is all powerful and all knowing and all loving, I ask you as I did Cato…
Wjy does God allow the rape and murder of little children today?
Why does he not do something about all the hunger and disease in the world?
Is it any less responsible or evil for a God who knows all things, and has all power, to create all things and then leave it to its own demise, while he sets in the heavens watching these little children suffer, and having the power to do something, yet he does nothing?
Would that God be any less evil than the God of the OT?
You would be better off to be like Stu and not believe in a God.
Or we could accept the fact, that as the heavens are as high as the earth, so is his ways past our finding out.
JMHO.
Quote Otherwise God's behavior seems very unloving towards his children. Otherwise we are better parents than he is! God's behavior is always loving towards “his children.”
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God.”–1 John 3:10.
Of course, we're not given much information here, but I think that the adults were antagonistic toward Jehovah’s prophet, and their attitude seems to have rubbed off on their offspring.
And God used those bears to execute divine justice against those who grossly despised his representative and thus despised Jehovah himself.
Jehovah tolerates no disrespect for his official servants.
I kind of think of these kids as being like the children in the days of Noah that perished. The whole earth was wicked back then. The parents were bad, and so the children followed in this. Jehovah, who can read hearts, can resurrect any who showed any interest in knowing him. But I don't know that is the case with any of these children. Being that he can read hearts, and know the future, he may well have known just how all these children would turn out.
These kids were not respectful, and not just that, not respectful of God's representative.
“‘Before gray hair you should rise up, and you must show consideration for the person of an old man, and you must be in fear of your God. I am Jehovah.”–Lev 19:32
So “Finally” as the record says, “he turned behind him and saw them and called down evil upon them in the name of Jehovah.”
Worldly youths today routinely mock teachers, parents and anyone in authority. Often, television scriptwriters are paid large sums to portray children as clever and adults as stupid.
2 Tim 3:1-5
But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, DISOBEDIENT TO PARENTS, unthankful, disloyal, 3 HAVING NO NATURAL AFFECTION, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.”Of course, it would be insane to think of us in punishing them with death…. because we cannot read hearts, nor are we the judge of mankind.
So when we consider what the “judge of the earth” did, we often look at it in terms of what we would do.
Is it wrong for the one who created life to take it away?I think part of the thing is that we're not considering that Elisha is God's official representative here.
Put the Messiah in Elisha's place for example. Picture a child going up to him and spitting on him as he's carrying his stake to his death. That child might as well never been born. “Oh, it's only a child. That's so cute.”
No.Secondly, we're wrongly putting our own children in the place of those who died. I believe kejonn is wrongly using this strong emotion to paint God badly.
We don't know who they were. Maybe they were a gang of children that went around throwing rocks at little old ladies, and stealing food from the starving. We have no idea. We weren't there. But Jehovah reads hearts.Interesting. I didn't know this. I just assumed the word translated children was ye′ledh
But it is not. It is: na′‛ar.
The usual Hebrew term for a boy or young man is na′‛ar. (Ge 19:4; Jg 8:20)
GENESIS 19:4
“Before they could lie down, the men of the city, the men of Sod′om, surrounded the house, from boy to old man, all the people in one mob.”JUDGES 8:20
“Then he said to Je′ther his firstborn: “Get up, kill them.” And the young man did not draw his sword, because he was afraid, for he was yet a young man.”These are example of that word being used.
The context is a deciding factor as to whether it is a young man or a child.
Joseph was called a naar when he was thirty years old (cf. Genesis 41:12,40,46). Joshua was a naar when he was forty-five to fifty years of age (Exodus 33:11; Joshua 24:29).
These naar mocked Elisha, indicating they were more than little children. They were small boys, but that is also not hugely descriptive.
Anyway, just adding some doubt to what we think we know about this, as Kejonn is doing.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 21 2008,20:12) Quote (kejonn @ April 22 2008,12:32) Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,19:22) Quote (kejonn @ April 22 2008,11:59) Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,18:46) Quote (kejonn @ April 22 2008,11:36) I apologize to those with weak stomachs .
Yes, and I believe that you need to appologize to God. Again, as you seem to do quite regularly, you jump to conclusions without seeking God or doing some research on what is being said.You thought that the scripture stated that God killed the children, and now you are coming with these gross scenes.
I've done research on this passage. Even the Judaica Press translation, a Jewish work, translates it as “tore apart”. So no apology to God is necessary as I don't believe for one instant that God did this. It is a story of folk lore and legend, like the little boy who cried wolf.
If you had done the research, then why did you state that God had killed the children?
What part of “tore apart” equates to something less than death? I was posting pictures of bear mauling victims to show that your option was not much better.Quote I can see that your intent is not to come and seek understanding but to destroy, and so, I don't want to spend any more time sharing any of my understanding of the scriptures with you. Jesus warned me of the likes of people like you.
What, people who dislike a maligned view of a benevolent Creator? That is fine, I will stand up for my God so He will stop being misrepresented as brutal and malicious.Quote If you only believe that there is a God and don't have a personal relationship with Him you aren't qualified to teach me anything about Him. I know who he is and someday, one way or the other, you will also know.
I don't intend to respond to any more of your posts.
I understand. But I am afraid that you are defending bronze age Jewish priests, not God. God would not do many of the things written of Him in the OT. Sorry, but I cannot see my God as a bigger version of a brutal human tyrant.
kejonnWith all due respect. If your God is all powerful and all knowing and all loving, I ask you as I did Cato…
Wjy does God allow the rape and murder of little children today?
Before I answer that, I must ask the same of you. You are one who says God is about love AND justice, so He should be much quicker to make the rapists and murderers face the consequences. But I don't see it happening. So your god is every bit as absent as mine, correct?I guess the difference here is that your god will give rapists and murderers a free pass into heaven if they decide to accept Jesus?
Really, to me, its quite simple: God created us, and then has allowed us to decide how we will live this life. He is there to look upon for inspiration and advice, but He will not interfere. He is our counselor and comforter, but He is not someone who gives out favors to favorite children.
I'm pretty sure you have children right WJ? Do you love one more than the other because one is more obedient than the other? I hope not. If you do, you need to realize that we are all different and all grow at different paces. The child that seems unruly is worthy of as much love as the golden child.
That's my God: He loves unconditionally. He does not say He hates someone before they ever leave the womb (like Esau).
Quote Why does he not do something about all the hunger and disease in the world?
Why doesn't Yahweh?Quote Is it any less responsible or evil for a God who knows all things, and has all power, to create all things and then leave it to its own demise, while he sets in the heavens watching these little children suffer, and having the power to do something, yet he does nothing? Would that God be any less evil than the God of the OT?
You would be better off to be like Stu and not believe in a God.
Or we could accept the fact, that as the heavens are as high as the earth, so is his ways past our finding out.
JMHO.
Really WJ, how is Yahweh different from who I view as God? I can tell you. I don't say God kills people. I don't say God honors one people more than another. I don't say God has favorites. I don't say God requires death to atone for sin. I don't say God requires us to believe in an itinerant Jewish preacher from a backwoods Jewish town that didn't exist in the 1st century to evade hell. I don't say God has a humongous book filled with the acts of every person ever to live that He uses to judge us with at the end.My God loves me, and I can love Him. His love is truly unconditional because He does not care about my race, color, creed or religion. He sees me as He sees all of His creation. He loves me through my mistakes. He is truly the father that we wish we all had.
Quote (david @ April 21 2008,20:30) I think part of the thing is that we're not considering that Elisha is God's official representative here.
Put the Messiah in Elisha's place for example. Picture a child going up to him and spitting on him as he's carrying his stake to his death. That child might as well never been born. “Oh, it's only a child. That's so cute.”
No.Secondly, we're wrongly putting our own children in the place of those who died. I believe kejonn is wrongly using this strong emotion to paint God badly.
We don't know who they were. Maybe they were a gang of children that went around throwing rocks at little old ladies, and stealing food from the starving. We have no idea. We weren't there. But Jehovah reads hearts.
Argument from silence. Work with what is written.Quote (david @ April 21 2008,20:40) Interesting. I didn't know this. I just assumed the word translated children was ye′ledh But it is not. It is: na′‛ar.
The usual Hebrew term for a boy or young man is na′‛ar. (Ge 19:4; Jg 8:20)
GENESIS 19:4
“Before they could lie down, the men of the city, the men of Sod′om, surrounded the house, from boy to old man, all the people in one mob.”JUDGES 8:20
“Then he said to Je′ther his firstborn: “Get up, kill them.” And the young man did not draw his sword, because he was afraid, for he was yet a young man.”These are example of that word being used.
The context is a deciding factor as to whether it is a young man or a child.
Joseph was called a naar when he was thirty years old (cf. Genesis 41:12,40,46). Joshua was a naar when he was forty-five to fifty years of age (Exodus 33:11; Joshua 24:29).
These naar mocked Elisha, indicating they were more than little children. They were small boys, but that is also not hugely descriptive.
Anyway, just adding some doubt to what we think we know about this, as Kejonn is doing.
That was 2 Kings 2:23. The “boys” that were mauled in 2:24 were “yeled” which was translated as “boy” 74 times in the KJV. Here is what the NWT says:- 2Ki 2:24 Finally he turned behind him and saw them and called down evil upon them in the name of Jehovah. Then two she-bears came out from the woods and went tearing to pieces forty-two children of their number.
Quote (david @ April 22 2008,13:20) Quote Otherwise God's behavior seems very unloving towards his children. Otherwise we are better parents than he is! God's behavior is always loving towards “his children.”
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God.”–1 John 3:10.
Of course, we're not given much information here, but I think that the adults were antagonistic toward Jehovah’s prophet, and their attitude seems to have rubbed off on their offspring.
And God used those bears to execute divine justice against those who grossly despised his representative and thus despised Jehovah himself.
Jehovah tolerates no disrespect for his official servants.
I kind of think of these kids as being like the children in the days of Noah that perished. The whole earth was wicked back then. The parents were bad, and so the children followed in this. Jehovah, who can read hearts, can resurrect any who showed any interest in knowing him. But I don't know that is the case with any of these children. Being that he can read hearts, and know the future, he may well have known just how all these children would turn out.
These kids were not respectful, and not just that, not respectful of God's representative.
“‘Before gray hair you should rise up, and you must show consideration for the person of an old man, and you must be in fear of your God. I am Jehovah.”–Lev 19:32
So “Finally” as the record says, “he turned behind him and saw them and called down evil upon them in the name of Jehovah.”
Worldly youths today routinely mock teachers, parents and anyone in authority. Often, television scriptwriters are paid large sums to portray children as clever and adults as stupid.
2 Tim 3:1-5
But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, DISOBEDIENT TO PARENTS, unthankful, disloyal, 3 HAVING NO NATURAL AFFECTION, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.”Of course, it would be insane to think of us in punishing them with death…. because we cannot read hearts, nor are we the judge of mankind.
So when we consider what the “judge of the earth” did, we often look at it in terms of what we would do.
Is it wrong for the one who created life to take it away?
David,
Your opinion is so far from mine that I don't even want to attempt to answer you. Thanks, but no thanks. MandyQuote (kejonn @ April 22 2008,11:36) I apologize to those with weak stomachs .
Oh! Dear God! My son is Korean and so I can only imagine that these images are of him!No apology necessary, Kevin. At least not where I am concerned. If the OT is saying that God perhaps caused this to happen, then it's something we should look at straight in the face. I am no longer willing to turn a deaf ear and blind eye away from what the bible says, and that includes the bad stuff.
Supposedly the bears tearing these children apart were due to a curse being put on them and the okey-dokey from God.
I'm……I'm just speechless right now. Shaking head……
I think I just noticed Hell being created?
Least any Man over look His own Hearts ability and mischief, and temptation to control transforming God into a terroristAll Grace and mercy to the searchers of the one true God
charity
Quote (charity @ April 22 2008,16:50) All Grace and mercy to the searchers of the one true God
Back at'cha babe!
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