God&#39;s plan of salvation as revealed in Scripture

Participant

Quote (trettep @ Mar. 24 2005,20:05)

Yes God will give whatever we ask according to His will so long as we believe that he will. Its all about Faith! God really wants us to believe without miracles and signs and wonders. Wants us to believe in the message and then show that belief.

Amen.

March 25, 2005 at 11:56 am#5895

Participant

To trettep,

Quote (trettep @ Mar. 24 2005,18:53)

Yes the gifts of the Spirit are given to edify the Church. I have a belief about something as well along those lines. That because the Church is so scattered that some of those gifts are not given as a result of that. For example, assume for a minute that all of us on the forum were called into God's Church (I'm not saying were not), now imagine if we all began to zealously work together and edify each other in love. Love being the greatest gift here. Then I believe (just my opinion) that some of those other gifts will be given also. Just like you wouldn't give a shotgun to a baby – neither would you give some of those gifts to a newborn babe in Christ that is still on milk. But as the newborn becomes a child and soon starts to eat meat having become a good in their wisdom then I believe the Lord will provide those gifts. We should desire them also because they are for the edification of the Church and we should desire those that do such.

Paul

True.

I think that we should build up those who belong to God. Some people who come here teach traditions of men, but to those who love God and are changed by his truth, with such people we need to encourage and build them up in love.

It is true that God and Christ wants us to be one. In unity with them and not in unity with the world or false religion. When we have attained unity of the brethren, God will be able to do so much more through us and the world will have the best chance to believe that Yehsua truly came from God.

March 25, 2005 at 1:26 pm#5897

Participant

Quote (trettep @ Mar. 23 2005,22:32)

The reason we need to know is because we will be Kings and Priests in a Royal Family. This goes back to the Gospel message that through Jesus Christ we can be born into the Family of God.

As members of that ruling Family we will be required to Judge and therefore its one of the requirements put before us to learn to judge by discerning Good and Evil.

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Do we really realize how amazing our calling is? Is quite amazing indeed. I hope that you hear feel called as I do and if you are and believe in that Gospel that I preached I believe you are. And if so it may not be a coincidence that we have shown up here together.

Hi Trett:

Couldn't agree more.

Is it a wonder then that we are told that the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom!

And yes, we do have an amazing calling.

March 25, 2005 at 2:50 pm#5898

trettep

Participant

That is true Cubes. That is the kinda fear we must have. God desires to change us to conform to His Son Jesus Christ.

Cubes, what church do you belong to right now and how to you find the Truth?

My reason for asking is that I'm looking for my brethren which will believe as I do and as I do them and all in Jesus Christ.

I'm eager to teach and to learn! But the knowledge I have is for the Church.

Paul

March 25, 2005 at 4:11 pm#5901

Participant

Quote (trettep @ Mar. 25 2005,14:50)

That is true Cubes. That is the kinda fear we must have. God desires to change us to conform to His Son Jesus Christ.

Cubes, what church do you belong to right now and how to you find the Truth?

My reason for asking is that I'm looking for my brethren which will believe as I do and as I do them and all in Jesus Christ.

I'm eager to teach and to learn! But the knowledge I have is for the Church.

Paul

Hi Trett,

Up until a few months ago, I attended the Vineyard Church for many years. I do not believe in the Trinity and also some of the things they considered to be the Spirit's manifestation (eg.”holy laughter,” etc) but that didn't get in the way of our getting along, as I regarded them as brothers and sisters in Christ. Now I have developed a growing concern over this issue and will not be as silent as I'd been in the past as I believe every “Christian” at least ought to hear it once, why God is not a Trinity. Whether or not it is received wouldn't be my focus.

I left the Vineyard in order to find a church more closer to home and build relationships in my own community. I realized the need for that when I registered Linear in nursery and was asked to provide an additional “emergency contact,” and found I didn't know anyone in my own area. I think there is a proverb that says better is a friend that is nearby than a brother who is far away. I took it to heart.

Now my family and I are at a place where we have to fit into a new group–and that is not fun. I have decided to make it close to home so I can more easily establish and build on the relationships God gives me. Very unspiritual indeed, but I know that God is leading me nontheless. This church is Baptist.

March 25, 2005 at 6:00 pm#5906

trettep

Participant

Be very careful where you fellowship. We are told to mark those that are contrary to the Gospel and to avoid them.

If you realize that the Trinity is false then you do well. The Trinity is false. The Godhead is a Family which is why the members refer to each other by family names such as Son and Father.

I suggest you evalute the comfort of life against the will of the Father in Heaven. I know that a soul longs to fellowship with peaceful people but if they believe not in the Gospel then they either pervert it or believe in another. We are to take up our crosses. Comfort comes later and we can rest in the rooms prepared for us.

Just take that to heart in your thinking. Look at some of the warnings to the Church in Revelations 2 and 3. God may look on your attendance or fellowship with others as a form of fornication or adultery. God is very jealous.

I say these things caring for what becomes of you.

Paul

March 26, 2005 at 4:35 am#5918

Participant

Yes Paul,

We do need to be careful whom we fellowship with. When we break bread with others we are declaring our unity in Christ with them to God.

If they have no part in Christ then we are uniting ourselves with sin. If the fellowship is not rightly founded on Christ then they worship demons and not God.

1Cor 10 21
” You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons;you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons”

March 26, 2005 at 9:13 pm#5921

Anonymous

Guest

t8, Nick
I was interested in your discussion on baptism on pg 15, and was disappointed to see the thread took another tangent before the issue was resolved. I see, t8, that your salvation page emphasised the importance of baptism to salvation. Have you changed your mind?

I am still pondering this idea that baptism is essential to salvation and I have to say that at present I agree with a lot of what you say t8. Here are some questions I have though.

Compare:

Quote

1 Cor 12
3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

with;

Quote

Romans 10
9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

and;

Quote

Eph 1
Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession–to the praise of his glory.

These verses suggest to me that it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is the important thing. Our verbal confessions of Jesus and our belief seem to depend on His presence working through us. So is baptism the mechanism by which the spirit is recieved? Are they inextricibly linked somehow?

Quote

Acts 10
46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

This verse shows that you can have the Holy Spirit before you are baptised? Are these men saved? It appears to me that they are, since 1 Cor 12 shows that we cannot truly praise God without the Holy Spirit.

Quote

Acts 8
15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

This verse is interesting. These people had been baptised but had not you recieved the Holy Spirit. But the Spirit was imparted by the laying on of hands after prayer seemed not to work. This does suggest that you can pray for the Holy Spirit though, which alligns with this verse:

Quote

Jn 16
I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

Jesus said this in the same chapter He told them he would send the Holy Spirit. If we can recieve the Spirit (which seals us in our salvation) without baptism, then where does baptism fit in?

Perhaps some of the references to baptism in Acts actually means baptism of the Holy Spirit, e.g:

Quote

Acts 2
Acts 1:5
For John baptized with [ Or in] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Looking forward to your replies

March 26, 2005 at 9:59 pm#5922

Participant

Hi MM,
Thank you for the thoughtful letter.
Here are some thoughts.

When Jesus promised the baptsm of the Spirit to his followers they were already saved in him.

The body must die before it is raised.[ Romans 6]

“Unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies it remains but a single seed.” Jn 12.24

Phillip did not lay hands on the Eunuch. It was not his role as he also did not seem to in Acts 8.12. Different roles for different parts of the Body. Paul preached but rarely baptised.

We are baptised into Christ[gal]
and
“If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he does not belong to him”

Both are necessary. If not then why would Peter command that those who receved the spirit first be baptised in water as well as you quoted?

“You must be born again of water AND the Holy Spirit”

March 26, 2005 at 10:32 pm#5923

Anonymous

Guest

So Paul was misleading us in these verses then:

March 26, 2005 at 10:44 pm#5924

Participant

Hi MM,
Do you not know the context of those words?
Would you like to prove you are greater than Paul?
Have you seen what Paul DID in the Acts of the Apostles?
Did your interpretation of these verses fit with what his beliefs showed in the field of work given him by Jesus?
When the jailor was saved then similar words were said but the actions of Paul proved that the superficial interpretation is not sufficient and the lack is in us for not looking deeper.
Do you not know that like all the epistles of Paul and the others, they are written to the saved and not the unsaved?
There is no conflict in scripture but sometimes Paul's wisdom takes a closer analysis to grasp the full meaning.
Many false teachers have used the words of Roman 10 to lead people astray. They say a new revelation is shown here. If you choose to follow them you will not be alone but you will not be following the full truthful expression of the Word of God but a wrong interpretation.

March 26, 2005 at 11:00 pm#5925

Participant

To Modem Mouth,

Baptise or not to baptise?

My view is that those who have the Spirit of God belong to God. God simply cannot indwell a sinful creature. We must either be perfect or redeemed to have the priviledge of God dwelling in us.

Of course it is essential that we believe in who Jesus is and what he has done. It is also essential that we obey God. For if we believe with the mind, that is not enough. We must believe with the heart. This kind of belief leads to action and obedience.

When we are baptised in water we are being obedient to God. Technically speaking, scripture shows that we can have the Spirit of God before being baptised in water. Therefore salvation is surely given to men even before baptism in water. But if we are obedient, then we will do what Christ has told us to when we learn of it.

Baptism is in the salvation page because this is the pattern we see in the New Testament. They were baptized when they believed. To me it is the way in which we accept the true faith and the work of the cross.

Yes I believe that Jesus is the Christ. I am willing to repent of my sins. To prove this, I will be baptized in water as my declaration of that. I am willing to die and let Christ live in me. But before I am baptized, I still believed the gospel did I not? Baptism doesn't make me believe in the gospel. It is my reponse in accepting the gospel that I must have believed before, in order to be baptized later.

March 26, 2005 at 11:35 pm#5926

Participant

Hi Cubes,

I use to fellowship within a Vineyard here in NZ. I have to say that I found many of the people there to be wonderful and I did see a lot of evidence of God at work in people's lives.

But I was never interested in the denomination itself, but I truly had great fellowship there with many. But there were also people there that I didn't want fellowship with. In some people I saw pride and there was a kind of social structure there that divided the cool people from the not so cool. In other words I saw the world there too. I also saw those crazy manifestations of the so-called spirit. I saw some people acting or mimicking like animals and I know that the Holy Spirit would not make a man act like an animal.

I had and still have the attitude that my brothers and sisters do not wear a label and that the wheat is also among the tares. So it was simply up to me to recognise the wheat from the tares and be part of their lives. E.g., I could probably go anywhere including a denomination and see wheat and tares. I could go to the beach, a park, a city or the Vineyard. There is no difference.

One thing I liked about the services is that it was like a home as opposed to a big cold hall where 95% of the people are being entertained from the front. They had big couches, bean bags and seats. Good coffee was always at hand and people generously brought food and shared it. This did create a homely atmosphere.

Of course if they were trying to create a homely atmosphere then that raises the question of why not just fellowship in homes. I am a great proponent of this. Just last night we had a couple come round to our house and we treated them as guests. It was inevitiable that we would fellowship as we all are passionate about God and seek the direction of the Spirit.

My attitude is to not plan so much that God has to fit our agenda, but that we go about our normal daily lives and let God speak to us and lead us. When I invite someone (christian) around my house for a meal we fellowship. I don't say come round and lets do Church. We are the church and when we gather together there is Christ in the midst of us.

When I was a younger christian I mistakenly believed what I was taught about having to attend a Sunday service. But by breaking that model I can demonstrate to Christians that there is life outside the structure.

On the other hand I have no problem attending services either. Yes I am careful to whom I break bread with. But denominations are also a mission field and God does send us to the field.

I do not go to the Vineyard now, but I fellowship regularly with some who still go there. Others have interpretted my non presence there as a sign of weak faith, but those who I connect with still see that I am as passionate about God as ever. This is a good witness as it shows that there is life and church outside this structure. That they cannot deny. But I also see those who are involved in the leadership there as being overworked. They have little time left to fellowship outside their structure. So for them I think they are in prison. They seem to be tired all the time. I know that the yoke that Christ gives us is light.

Sometimes I feel that my mission is to call people out of the world and Babylon. But I can do this not so much by throwing stones at the organisation itself, but just by living the way God wants me to live. This demonstrates to others that you can be a christian and not attend a Sunday meeting. Hopefully they will see how the church really functions.

So I am free to fellowship within and without the system. But either way I am free. I am free to fellowship with the wheat wherever they are.

March 27, 2005 at 6:32 am#5932

Anonymous

Guest

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2005,22:44)

Quote

Would you like to prove you are greater than Paul?

Huh??

Quote

Do you not know that like all the epistles of Paul and the others, they are written to the saved and not the unsaved?

So the saved should disregard the NT epistle's seriotological applications. Think about what you are saying here Nick.

March 27, 2005 at 6:54 pm#5938

Participant

Quote (trettep @ Mar. 25 2005,18:00)

Be very careful where you fellowship. We are told to mark those that are contrary to the Gospel and to avoid them.

If you realize that the Trinity is false then you do well. The Trinity is false. The Godhead is a Family which is why the members refer to each other by family names such as Son and Father.

I say these things caring for what becomes of you.

Paul

Hi Trettep,

I understand what you are saying and we've discussed that in the Trinity thread (February 2005 I believe, but I don't have any page ref). You are right, first of all. I have no argument against what you say.

Still, we must make disciples and establish fellowship and communities as they did in the early church. I don't believe we are to work alone or sit and wait until Jesus comes. And being on-line is great because the Lord can certainly use us for his glory, etc. but we shouldn't be satisfied with just being on line.

In the meantime, I am in Trinitarian churches in the belief that there are those there who also love and worship the eternal God but who for various reasons, have not heard the true Gospel perverted by Trinitarianism. They would be akin to the Samaritan Woman to whom Jesus said, ” Ye worship ye know not what; we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.” John 4:22. The Samaritans knew that there is a True God but their practices were largely perverted due to pagan influences. I say this based on the history of the northern kingdom of Israel in the books of Kings. Also the woman was familiar with Messiah and lived in that expectation yet Jesus said they did not know what they worshiped.

So a typical trinitarian could be said to desire to worship the true God and may sincerely think himself doing it, but is unaware that he “…worships ye know not what.” Such a person, if they are sincere, should then be like the woman and receive the truth, after hearing the very gospel presented to the woman.

So, having no other “Jews” to fellowship with, I have been fellowshiping with those whom I hope are like the “Samaritans” that received Jesus. I also have the hope of sharing with them that true gospel of John 4 as I have opportunity.

I shall be interested for us to discuss ways of connecting with others in true faith which is not limited to cyberspace, in loving obedience to the Master. And particularly in ways of sharing the true gospel with those who are yet to hear it.

March 27, 2005 at 8:51 pm#5943

Participant

Hi cubes,
In your heart you know the truth. You have the living Spirit of God as your teacher. Because of that you will often feel uncomfortable listening to what is preached and taught that you know is false.

For me, I could not continue to tolerate what I knew God hated. By saying nothing and being as one with the others I was part of the problem. I felt I was a passenger on a ship travelling in exactly the opposite direction from the one I knew I should be travelling in.

I felt I had to choose whether staying where I was with those I loved or following the Lord and I could not sit on the fence any longer. I was in no position to alter the course of the big liner as I had no access to the bridge. No one I spoke to shared my concerns at all.

Big organisations are not open to change and have a way of isolating and mocking those who are unconvinced that their path is correct. The worst part was that no one cared that the scriptures were being denied. No one respected the scriptures but they were content with their hollow doctrines. No listening ears existed and any change was totally off the agenda.

Having been told by a 'priest' that I could not pray for the sick without his approval I shook the dust off my feet [literally] and wrote to the local Cardinal informing him that I was leaving catholicism for good, and I have never returned.

Your situation is different as you must obey your husband.I will pray for you both. But never fear that you will be isolated if you ever are led to leave. God gets closer.

March 27, 2005 at 10:00 pm#5946

Participant

Thank you, Nick. Spheres of course believes that he is worshiping the true God and desires very much (as I do) for our daughter to be brought up in “the faith,” but of course we are now finding out that we have not the same faith as we don't worship the same God! Otherwise we agree on most biblical things. And now, I find myself in the situation of many who are married to others of a different faith and the difficulties encountered related to that, especially when it comes to the children.

March 27, 2005 at 11:07 pm#5948

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 26 2005,23:35)

Hi Cubes,
…I also saw those crazy manifestations of the so-called spirit. I saw some people acting or mimicking like animals and I know that the Holy Spirit would not make a man act like an animal.

There too and in some of those manifestation, one either sees paganistic influences or demonic ones I think. And discernment is greatly needed in those cirles. As you say after Christ, wheat and tares. I determined to keep myself uncontaminated and had many whom I thought well of, who tried to convince me that such things were of the holy spirit. As a result, I was in leadership at one point but never became quite a part of the inner circle as I didn't buy into the spirit/manifestation thing.

March 28, 2005 at 10:17 am#5953

Participant

Quote (Guest @ Mar. 27 2005,06:32)

nick wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

Would you like to prove you are greater than Paul?

Huh??

Quote

Do you not know that like all the epistles of Paul and the others, they are written to the saved and not the unsaved?

So the saved should disregard the NT epistle's seriotological applications. Think about what you are saying here Nick.

Hi MM,
Paul proved the gospel by his actions. Anyone altering the gospel is saying in effect that he is of greater authority than Paul and I am sure that is not your intention.

In Romans 10 Paul that
” if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved”

Scripture also says that no man can say 'Jesus is Lord' without the Spirit so these are Spirit filled believers spoken of here. We have no examples where believers are only born of the Spirit for any length of time in the Word so these are baptised also.

This is not a new gospel of 'believe and you are saved'. It is a reassurance of salvation to those who are born again. I meant no offence and I hope this explains my meaning.

March 31, 2005 at 12:51 am#5983