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hi Paul
Heb 10 22
” let us draw near in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with PURE water”
Pure 2513 KATHENOS
Clean[12]Clear[3]Innocent[1]Pure[10] and such words as purified, cleaned or cleansed derive from it.It is not an absolute word like “Holy” which relates to heavenly matters, and nothing can be made more holy. It is a relative word. Do you drink or wash in pure water? Yes, but you do not ever deal with absolutely pure water found only in Labs. No. We grade water quality. They do bacterial counts to assess the standard. Some is potable and some not. It is a word relating to things of earth where nothing is perfect.[Tit 1.15,1Tim 1.5,2Tim 2.22, Jas 1.27,Rev 21.18,21]
The Holy Spirit is described as living water[Jn4,7] just as God is the”living God”. But the word pure is never used in relationship to the Spirit and cannot relate to the Holy Spirit because “pure” is not an absolute as the “Holy” Spirit is.
So Heb 10 relates to natural water. It repeats what is said in 1 Peter 3, but adds the word “pure” to indicate a principle. The principle is that the water we wash in should make us cleaner that when we started. Otherwise the symbol of cleansing is opposed. It need not be perfect as the Jordan or a puddle on the side of the road even are good enough.God adds an enlargement here and there in the Word to build up knowledge once the basics are established.
The Holy Spirit is not of earth but of heaven.
Having explored this area to a degree and read some of the posts here, I offer my opinion.
The disciples baptized in water even after some received the Holy Spirit. This raises 2 points to me.
- That some had the Spirit (and surely salvation) without water baptism.
- But they were baptized afterward anyway.
I think that anyone with the Spirit of God inside them, must surely be saved as God cannot dwell in anything that is not perfect or redeemed. So I have a question regarding these points.
Why were they baptized if they already had the Spirit?
All I can see is that they did it out of obedience. But were the disciples lacking in understanding by mixing the Old with the New. Were they lacking in faith as to the baptism of the Spirit by then baptizing in water which would seem the lesser of the 2 baptisms.
I do not know. My stance is that we should be baptized in obedience to the gospel message just as those in the Book of Acts were. To me it is the way we that we accept the gospel. E.g., in any contract, covenant, business deal we can verbally accept. This holds even in a court of Law. But one is then expected to sign the contract to proof the previous verbal agreement.
Could baptism be like signing the New Covenant as we are accepting of God's covenant in blood. After the covenant is signed we then receive the benefits of fellowship with God himself including being filled by his Spirit. But we can receive the Spirit even before hand because of the verbal contract, which is the fruit of a willing heart.
If so, then it is expected that a verbal contract be written down before witnesses afterward to seal the deal. Hence baptism in water to witness of the agreement to follow God in the name of his son.
That is my understanding so far. But I currently do not see how water baptism on it's own merit saves anyone. Constantine (The Roman Emperor who was fundamental in the development of the Trinity doctrine) was supposedly baptized on his death bed in case there was a judgement. But I seriously doubt this guys faith. Surely a simple act of baptism wouldn't save him. If so, then why can't anyone live a sinful life and then at the last minute (taking a risk that there is a last minute) be baptized before the moment of death.
Somehow the idea that baptism in water saves us, seems to be full of holes. Surely baptism is just the beginning and it is they who are obedient who will be saved. If so, then is baptism obedience to God?
The other thing is that we are saved by grace not works. Baptism is surely a work that we choose to do. So this is another reason why I think that it is the way we accept the message of the gospel of salvation rather than salvation itself. In itself baptism (the work) doesn't save us, rather obedience to God.
I hope you guys can understand why I think this.
Hi t8,
Anyone who believes baptism alone magically saves us has got it wrong.That is the sort of wrong thinking that leads some to baptise infants.There is no scriptural evidence that the process of infant baptism is valid as there are no examples in Acts.[though we do not know the age of the Jailors family]
Scripture says whatever is not of faith is of sin. Infants cannot have faith as it requires understanding so infant baptism is not of faith.
Scripture also says that unless we repent we shall all perish. Repentance is the key and baptism is a sign of that repentance.
Ananias and Sapphira were baptised into the kingdom. But their lack of repentance was evidenced by their behaviour and recognised by the Spirit in Peter.
Likewise Simon the magician[appropriate] was baptised into the kingdom without repentance and God gives us this example too early in the book of Acts[Ch 8] that we too will perish unless the commitment is associated with repentance.
Salvation is not magic.
A few other points t8,
Only God sees the heart.Of the things are necessary in God's plan [repentance, belief, water baptism+the gift of the Spirit] only baptism is visible. True belief leads to obedience and the Spirit may be manifested in power but the brothers never can tell if someone has repented or not unless the Spirit reveals it. It is a personal matter between God and the individual. Peter and the apostles would not have been checking repentance credentials when they baptised 3000 in one day. We are told that wolves will come in sheeps clothing and savage the flock.
I disagree that baptism is our works. It is something done by our brothers to us in obedience to the command.
Anyway that is my view.
I would have thought that all things that we do in obedience to God are works. Works are not bad, it's just that they are not the basis of our salvation. In fact we can have a lack of works and still be saved.
Our works are tested on judgement day to see if they withstand the fire of judgement. If they burn down we can still be saved if we are on the rock. If our works do not burn down, then we not only have salvation, but we also have reward (some 30, 60, 100 fold).
There are many types of works, but works commissioned by the Father is what we should be doing.
What do others think. Is water baptism a work or not? If not then what is it?
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 23 2005,10:29) I would have thought that all things that we do in obedience to God are works. Works are not bad, it's just that they are not the basis of our salvation. In fact we can have a lack of works and still be saved. Our works are tested on judgement day to see if they withstand the fire of judgement. If they burn down we can still be saved if we are on the rock. If our works do not burn down, then we not only have salvation, but we also have reward (some 30, 60, 100 fold).
There are many types of works, but works commissioned by the Father is what we should be doing.
What do others think. Is water baptism a work or not? If not then what is it?
- I offer these scriptures:
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Luk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness.
Gal 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
- I don't consider obedience works, but rather the work of the spirit. It was a question I asked the Father many years ago: What does Galations 5:16 mean? How do I walk by the spirit so as not to fulfill the lust of the flesh…? I was led to, Psalms 19 and 119:
Psa 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed [thereto] according to thy word.
- And then I look at Jesus' life, and I see that we couldn't accuse him of “works” but he was said to be full of the Holy Spirit. And his life was Characterized by the fruit and gifts of the Spirit, but he lived a life of obedience and went to great lengths of impressing that upon us:
Hbr 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
“Not my will but thy will be done.”
- When the Spirit led Phillip to the Ethiopian Eunuch, he could have refused to go and therefore would not have been led by the spirit:
Jhn 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not.
So my thing is, a loving response to God is characterized in obedience, no matter how you look at it. All who were led by the Spirit did not live by doing their own will but that of the Father. And we know what his will is because of the written word primarily. We as people tend to quote Romans 8:1 but often neglect the latter end of the verse.
So what does it mean to be led or to walk by the spirit? And how does one do it without works? My question of the day!
Salvation is definitely a gift, and yet, if one fails to accept it, one can't receive it. The Pearl of Great Price (Matt 13:45-46): One must sell all he has in order to acquire it.
The gospel is preached, and if one fails to listen and take it to heart, nothing is gained.
- John 6:44-46: No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who * has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
So I am inclined to think that it is a packaged deal. I don't think we can willfully rewrite and renegotiate the contract, t8. You know how litigious people can be in the U.S.
***trettep, I am glad you are staying as my comments were not intended to cause injury. We should have the freedom to challenge/question one another as necessary, or we can run the risk of becoming partisan and leading one another into error. I am sure you understand. But go easy when I am the one on the hot seat, will ya?
You were speaking about doing things mostly in/by the spirit a couple posts earlier. Could you please expound on that?
What does it mean to “worship in truth and in spirit?” How does one carry it out or do it?
Does it have anything to do with aligning outward actions with inward thought/truth so that outward deeds are a true reflection of what is inward? (Galations 6:7; Col 3:22)
Hi t8,
Surely the only important fact about “works” is the no one is saved by the works of the Law.[gal 2.16,Rom 3.28,4.2,4.6,9.11,11.26,Heb 6.1, 9.14,Eph 2.9-10]]So that information is for the Jews who were under the Law and they were being told that the new covenant surpasses the old.But once established in Christ we are to produce fruit. Jesus constantly pointed to the “works”, which are fruit, done by God through him as evidence of his mission.[Jn 93-4, 10.25-38, 14.10-12]
We too have a life of good works prepared for us to fulfill in Christ in obedience to the Spirit as cubes has said.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 23 2005,19:59) Hi t8,
Surely the only important fact about “works” is the no one is saved by the works of the Law.[gal 2.16,Rom 3.28,4.2,4.6,9.11,11.26,Heb 6.1, 9.14,Eph 2.9-10]]So that information is for the Jews who were under the Law and they were being told that the new covenant surpasses the old.But once established in Christ we are to produce fruit. Jesus constantly pointed to the “works”, which are fruit, done by God through him as evidence of his mission.[Jn 93-4, 10.25-38, 14.10-12]
We too have a life of good works prepared for us to fulfill in Christ in obedience to the Spirit as cubes has said.
There is two sets of works though. The works of the Law and the works of Faith. People like to lump all works into the same wheel barrel. You can separate works of Faith from the Faith itself.Think of it like this. The works of the Law don't lead to righteousness because the Law for example don't include a penalty for hate. The works of Faith requires us to fullfill the Spirit of the Law so esensially its the Law on a much higher plane but doesn't mean that their isn't works required. Demonstration of your Faith is carrying out the Spirit of the Law which includes hate.
Paul
A lightbulb just came on for me:
- John 6:44-46: No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who * has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
Reconciled to:
- Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
And this, regarding water baptism:
- Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
John 6:44-45 and Galatians 3:23-25 agree.
You guys are doing something there that I think is wonderful and that is your searching hard and have a zeal for the Truth. This is wonderful! Seek and you will Find! Cubes, to expound on the Spirit a bit. If you read in the new testament you will find that those born again are new born babes desiring milk not ready for meat. This can be likened unto someone that has learned karate. At first the person doesn't know enough to defend or attack but as they progress and become a black belt (mastery) they now can anticipate their attackers moves and right judge their character. This is what Christ wants us to learn which is how to Judge and discern Good from Evil.
Paul
Hi trettep
Discernment of Good and evil. Can you expound on that a little as relates to maturing in Christ? And I think you are a part of the forum too, so we are searching and having zeal together.
I'm pleased to be included in your company. To expound as you desired:
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskillfull in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.I think verse 14 above gets to the defining of what is the meat and I often think my karate analogy is a good one to use to teach people (let me know if its not).
I think the practice of the gratitude and friendliness being displayed here in this forum is a great sign of some of the meat which is an exercise of what was discerned to be good.
We need to learn this practice of discernment and that requires a lot of drinking the blood and eating of the flesh of Christ (learning of the Word of God).
The reason we need to know is because we will be Kings and Priests in a Royal Family. This goes back to the Gospel message that through Jesus Christ we can be born into the Family of God.
As members of that ruling Family we will be required to Judge and therefore its one of the requirements put before us to learn to judge by discerning Good and Evil.
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?Do we really realize how amazing our calling is? Is quite amazing indeed. I hope that you hear feel called as I do and if you are and believe in that Gospel that I preached I believe you are. And if so it may not be a coincidence that we have shown up here together.
Paul
Hi,
You speak of the discernment that we all should develop in ourselves through time,experience and maturity Paul.As in the NASB
Heb 5.14
” But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil”But there is a special spiritual gifting too.
1Cor 12.4-10
” Now there are a variety of gifts, but the same Spirit…..
and to another THE DISTINGUISHING OF SPIRITS”Do you agree?
Yes the gifts of the Spirit are given to edify the Church. I have a belief about something as well along those lines. That because the Church is so scattered that some of those gifts are not given as a result of that. For example, assume for a minute that all of us on the forum were called into God's Church (I'm not saying were not), now imagine if we all began to zealously work together and edify each other in love. Love being the greatest gift here. Then I believe (just my opinion) that some of those other gifts will be given also. Just like you wouldn't give a shotgun to a baby – neither would you give some of those gifts to a newborn babe in Christ that is still on milk. But as the newborn becomes a child and soon starts to eat meat having become a good in their wisdom then I believe the Lord will provide those gifts. We should desire them also because they are for the edification of the Church and we should desire those that do such.
Paul
Hi Paul,
My theory is that the gifts are not seen because the Spirit is only promised to the children of God.The wrong teaching about salvation is causing most to miss the 'gate' and to be left with a form of dead religion. It may be intellectually satisfying but still dead. If people grow up in a dead religious culture and they read the bible with dead eyes they cannot see the kingdom. It is ironic that you have to obey before you can understand.
The other problem is what James said.
“You do not have because you do not ask”.God is faithful in all his promises but if we do not know what we lack we will not ask for it. And if we have received the Spirit but not experienced the gifts the lack is not in God but in us. The Spirit never changes and Gods' gifts are freely given to those who seek them.
Yes God will give whatever we ask according to His will so long as we believe that he will. Its all about Faith! God really wants us to believe without miracles and signs and wonders. Wants us to believe in the message and then show that belief. Its hard – hard to change that is and probably gradual. I'm reminded that in one day 3000 were baptized at one point in the New Testament yet we prodiminately see only a few more than a dozen in the New Testament being identified with such supernatural works (“miracles”). I think that is a direct fact that those that have exercised discernment of Good and Evil are more responsible to be given those works. In an of itself that is God teaching responsibility to His Children. I want to fullfill whatever God wants me to fullfill. I am very delighted to be filled with the wonderful thoughts of this.
Paul
Hi Paul,
But the Spirit is given to us as evidence of our salvation. It is a downpayment. What use is evidence that is only theoretical? We need to see God's work being done in us to know. Not everything is just of faith. Paul asked the believers in Acts 19 if they had received the Spirit. That was a silly question unless they should have experienced the power of the Spirit surely?If everyone who believes is “saved” and has their salvation then that means that Christ overcame nothing and even the temptation by Satan was in vain. The Holy Spirit is a gift given to those that believe in the Gospel.
Paul
Hi Paul,
As James says” even the demons believe, and tremble”. Belief alone was never enough whether belief in God or even in the gospel. My beliefs change from day to day so that is shifting sand to build on.The cornerstone of Jesus must be laid.
The Jailor asked
“Sirs ,what must I do to be saved?”
and was told to
“believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved, you and your household”That was not all that was meant though for
“immediately he was baptised, he and all his household”Not everyone is saved,as you say. Neither is everyone saved who thinks they are.There are many risk takers.
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