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Yes. I hopefully am preaching at least a different gospel than the mainstream since the mainstream most likely isn't a part of the Church. Having the Holy Spirit makes one born again.
Born again of the water and the Spirit means exactly that. The Holy Spirit is water – in fact its pure water.
You said that my salvation requires no sign before men. First off I don't believe anyone has received their salvation at this time. Secondly, I believe that one must produce fruit.
Its my opinion that God gave me this knowledge. I believe God created knowledge to begin with when he created man in His image.
The committment is that once one realizes this they must be on the path to righteousness and bring forth fruit worthy of their repentance.
Nobody joins the vine without being called to.
What I'm preaching is the Way!
Do you believe that Christ was all circumcised? If so, does that mean everyone must be circumcised? – your answer will probably be no because it was under the old covenant. John the Baptist water baptism was this same sign under the old covenant.
I believe God is changing our minds and we conform to Christ. Its belief and can't be separated from good works if we are to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
I believe I'm following Christ. I came to much effort to this cause.
Paul
Hi Paul,
Naaman was initially offended at the advice of Elisha's to bathe to receive salvation from his leprosy. But when he obeyed he received the blessing.We must be born again “from above” and we cannot do it ourself from below.
The circumcision was required of the Jews. Collosians tells us baptism is the circumcision of the New Covenant.
We are not married by moving in with the girlfriend. It requires 'repentance' and commitment and a sign before God and men.This salvation is a far deeper covenant than marriage.
If being born again is only of Spirit why does Jesus repeat himself when he says “Water AND the Spirit”?
Being different from the mainstream does not make one right but just different. I would disagree and say your views are close to the current mainstream and the fruit is not good in the church.
Hi trettep:
Jesus left a command to baptise those who believe. In fact, his own disciples baptised. Mark 16:15-16.
Here is another worthwhile account from Acts 19:
And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John's baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7 Now the men were about twelve in all.According to this, John's baptism is a baptism of repentence that signified a believe in Jesus.
Then Paul baptised in the name of Jesus, and after that laid hands on them, which is when the holy spirit came upon them evidenced with signs of tongues and prophesy.
The baptism by Paul would be into the death of Christ that we may live in him. The holy spirit is another matter entirely, and I don't think it is signifying adoption here but rather empowerment, as I would imagine the adoption process occurred with Apollos or at John's baptism.
I am inclined to strongly agree with Nick here. When Jesus wanted to teach about the Sabbath, he set examples and spoke clearly, teaching that the Sabbath is for man and not man for the sabbath, thus he advocated showing mercy also on the sabbath day.
When Paul wanted to teach about circumcision, it wasn't done on a word. In fact, the concept of being circumcised in the heart goes back to Deutoronomy—if I remember correctly, so Paul was not introducing a new doctrine at all, just reminding them of an old one.
With regards to kosher and non kosher foods, enough is said to help us understand, plus Peter had a vision which led him to Cornelius.
So I see some merit in the point you raised to which I addressed earlier, but at the same time with regards to water baptism, I have nothing to go on when you say Peter “remembered…” Had Jesus emphasized or taught “no water baptisms,” criticised or condemned it, then we could reasonably establish a link and draw the conclusions you make. As it is, I find it wanting and so cannot receive it without further “it is written…”
It should have deserved a mention in Romans 14 or somewhere like that.
Besides, when one is baptised by water into Christ's death and resurrection, that in and of itself is not something God disapproves of and so cannot disqualify one's entry into the kingdom. Whereas one takes a gamble with your route, trettep, if one willfully avoids baptism into Christ.
I say willfully because I see the thief on the cross next to Jesus as an exception to the rule…and he had no choice at that point in his life so he couldn't be said to have willfully refused.
1 Cor 15:29: Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?
I think that is the question, trettep.
Hi Paul,
Your “accept and believe” gospel seems to be a “do it yourself” salvation. There is no mention even of coming into relationship with Jesus.Yet Jesus himself said
” whoever wants to save his own life will lose it”
and
“no one comes to the Father except through me”You say as soon as you “accept and believe” you have been born again of the Holy Spirit.That is a rather large leap of faith. Scripture shows that this gift is usually imparted by the layng on of hands by believers but we can also ask our Father and He will give us the gift Himself. But you say intellectual assent alone is sufficient for the gift to be given? That is another new teaching you bring that differs from what is revealed in the Word of God.
The Spirit of God is not a dead document. The Spirit has life and manifests in Power in those who are priveleged to receive this blessing.
Obviously you guys have misunderstood me. But its by no means the first time
I think the thing that you must understand is that we have an Old Covenant and a New Covenant and when Jesus came was the transition phase between both. Therefore, Jesus was fullfilling the Old Covenant while transitioning to the new covenant. What you see in many of the verses you are quoting and reading is the fullfillment of the Old Covenant methods while becoming shadows of the things to be represented in the New Testament. Jesus gave us the bread and the wine but do you believe eating the bread and drinking the wine literally are required to obtain salvation? Lets go back to this question – what is Peter remembering in Acts 11:16?
He already knew about water baptism and already knew Christ baptized with the Holy Spirit. So what was he really remembering?
Paul
No Paul ,
You are not misunderstood, you are wrong in my opinion..
The transition time was at the time of John the baptist and there was no prolonged adjustment phase into the new gospel of 'accept and believe' as you preach.John was the watershed between the two covenants.
Matt 11.11f
” Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom is greater than he. From the days of John the baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John”And Lk 16.16f
” The Law and the prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it”So before Jesus spoke in these verses the kingdom had already been established. John was born of woman but those in the Kingdom are born of God's Spirit and as John was not they are greater than him in Jesus. God has said all are welcome as He wants everyone to be saved and turns no one away so all have the right to enter as if forcing their way in. That had begun as Jesus said so the kingdom was even then among them.
The transition phase had already passed as John had died.
I labor for you all. I believe now in hindsight I probably shouldn't have given you this knowledge without giving you more knowledge of the Kingdom.
You speak of the Kingdom in your comments but what is the Kingdom that Jesus speaks of?
Paul
Hi Paul,
We love all knowledge that can be proven from the Word. If you can show us proof we are listening. So far on this matter you seem to have wandered into speculation by personal understandings and to where we would not be safe to follow.
I did a search on the internet and found this document which seems to explain much about what I'm talking about. I haven't read it completely so I don't know where it ends up but it seemed to be what I believe from the beginning. I don't know this website so don't consider this an endorsement:
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules….thold=0
Paul
Thank you Paul,
Of course, as cubes has said, the baptism in the Holy Spirit is not a baptism of washing to make clean and forgive sin. That washing is in water baptism and the baptism in the Spirit is a baptism of empowermentHey Paul, hang around and continue contributing usefully to the forums but arguments are futile once established that we have fixed positions.
Yeah stick around Paul.
I am open minded here, so I pray that God would reveal the truth to our hearts and minds.
Hi,
I, too, have learned from you Paul and am glad you will continue here. The site you emailed brings in some new issues which need to be explored.John the baptist came to the jews under the old covenant to prepare the way for them to receive the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Speaking of John;
Lk 3.3
” And he came into all the district around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins..”
Mk 1.4
” John the baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins”
He said of Jesus
” I baptised you with water ;but he will baptise you with the Holy Spirit”Paul said of John's baptism in Acts 19
” John baptised with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”We know this part of God's plan was essential and the fruit was openness to the gospel.
In Lk 7.28f Jesus testifed about John and it says
“When all the people and the tax collectors heard this they acknowledged God's justice, having been baptsised with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptised by John.”So the washing of water baptism was necessary for inner cleansing and forgiveness. The outer cleansing symbolised the inner change and God forgave their sins. This was a preparation for the mission of the Son of God. When the Son of God started his mission John's came to an end.
John himself said in Jn 3.30.
“He must increase but I must decrease”
and his mission ended with his death.But the need for a water baptism for forgiveness and inner cleansing did not.In fact the water baptism in the name of Jesus is shown to be still necessary even after John's baptism in Acts 19.
1 Peter 3.20f
“who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few,that is 8 persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you -not the removal of dirt from the flesh but an appeal to God for a good conscience-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,who is at the right hand of God..”
and
Acts 2.38
” Peter said to them
'Repent, and each one of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit'”The listeners had received the baptism of John but were told they needed to be baptised in the name of Jesus and that they would be baptised in the Spirit. None was superfluous and all necessary for them.
Why is water baptism necessary? Because it prepares the way FOR baptism in the Holy Spirit. You cannot bring what is holy into our unclean room. It is not the WORK of the Holy Spirit to make us clean. We have to be clean to offer that holiness a home. Sin has to be forgiven first. Now God may reveal He has given that forgiveness by the release of the Spirit as in the case of Cornelius because He sees the heart.
The site mentioned by Paul says that the inner cleansing is the work of the Holy Spirit but I dispute that being a primary role.It als speaks of the “one” baptism in Eph 4.5 as if there is only one and thus it has to be water OR the Spirit.
The context is wrong.
There are many baptisms as Heb 6 1-2 tells us including too the baptism of fire.The Ephesians scripture reminds us that we have all been baptised in water to enter into the body of Christ. Christ is one and so are we in him because of that baptism.
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