- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Go and look back at look up the phrase “pure water” in the King James. The Holy Spirit is pure water.
Paul
Hi Paul,
Yes the Spirit becomes as a fountain of pure water leaping up to eternal life. It is inwards but our witness to God ,the angels and men is external.Your words disagree with those of Jesus. Your words and actions here are out of line with Peter, Paul and Phillip and the other apostles.
I prefer to do as they did for they learned from the master and not from men.
Don't ever do what I do always do what Christ says to do. I believe I'm in perfect agreement with Acts 11:16.
Paul
Yes Paul,
But Paul later in Acts 19 met some men who had been baptised by John in water. According to your logic he would only need hands laid on him to receive the Spirit, but Paul first rebaptised him in water in the name of Jesus. That shows the water baptism of John does not displace the Baptism in the name of Jesus. The baptism of John was to prepare the way. It was to make straight the way of the Lord so they were ready to hear the gospel.[Lk 7.30,Lk 3.3,Mk 1.4]Peter was explaining the new concept of baptism in the Spirit by comparing it with water baptism by John and the teaching of Jesus, but he was not teaching against the baptism in the name of Jesus which is essential for all. That is shown throughout the book of Acts and did not alter after Peter visited with Cornelius.
When I say it is essential I refer you to Hebrews 9.22 and the OT
“…without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness”
Jesus shed his blood for us and we must follow him into his death.[Rom 6] We must be born again of water AND the Holy Spirit if we wish to enjoy God's forgiveness and blessing. We need to go through the gate and put on the wedding clothes.
[Lk 1.77,Acts 2.38,Eph 1.7,Heb 10.22,Matt 26.28, Mk 16.16]Hi Paul,
No it does not always say water. But water baptism is the “type” and baptism in the Spirit is compared with that type. Since the Spirit is normally received by the laying on of hands in Acts then if you read, for example, Acts 19 you would have duplication if the baptism in the name of Jesus was the Baptism in the Spirit because they had both.The same can be said for all other salvations recorded in Acts, including that of Cornelius. They had both baptism and the laying in of hands.
Yes others had both the laying on of hands and water baptism but that was because it wasn't known until Peter “remembered”. Think about this:
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
But Peter already knew that baptism would be in the Holy Ghost from this verse earlier:
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Additionally Peter also knew John's preaching about water baptism:
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?So you need to ask yourself what was Peter remembering in Acts 11:16 if he already new about water baptism and already knew that people would be baptized by the Holy Spirit.
What he remembered was that the Water was the type for the Holy Spirit. After that baptism meant into the Holy Spirit.
Paul
No Paul,
I do not regard the so called memory of Peter to be equivalent to what is written in the Word of God. The new teaching is from man's imagination in my view.Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Notice the pure water above. Is the river jordan pure water? – no its not.
Where did it come from:
Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb
Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount.
Water baptism is a shadow of heaving things and that is why John the Baptist had to prepare the way.
Paul
I forgot to mention this as well when your studying this subject:
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:God is pouring out the Spirit. Notice the word pour just as you would with water. Why would there be two waters required for baptism. There is no basis for this as a former type. Plus God is pouring out the Spirit. If you notice in the water baptisms it seems every account of a water baptism was from someone else that had already been baptized creating a chain of authority to baptize. That would mean that the chain would have to exists at this time and you would have to have your water baptism from someone that was baptized by someone etc… all the way back to the early Church. But the baptism of the Holy Spirit comes from Christ and Christ is the authority and we have that authority available at all times.
Paul
Hi Paul,
Well if the Hebrews scripture means that why is our bodies that are washed? The Spirit does not wash our bodies.The interpretation you placed on Acts 11 is based on one thing-the lack of a specific command to baptise in the Name of Jesus. But Peter was quoting the words of Jesus to Him.
Acts 1.4
” And gathering them together, he commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised,”which,” he said” you heard from me;John baptised with water, but you shall be baptised with the Holy Spirit not many days from now”So Jesus was speaking to his followers who had already entered the kingdom. The scripture is not all inclusive as it does not mention Jesus had himself baptised with water. Of course they did not have to be baptised now. So would Peter alter the words of Jesus for the sake of the audience? Of course not. He quoted what had been said.
Peter was describing the events of Acts 10. At the time he immediately ordered they be baptised in water. If, and it is a big if, God had given him some major new understanding to forever change the behaviour of the disciples so they did not have to follow Jesus why did he not make a big song and dance about it and at least tell Paul who carried on as he had started? That meant there was division in Christ.
No. That is the way of men, not God to make such changes in mid stream.
This is a vital matter. It relates to entry into the kingdom. Wrong teaching here closes the gate in the face of your listeners. Nothing else compares in importance.
“Seek ye FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD and everything else will be added to you”
No one enters the Kingdom until they endure their Faith unto the end.
Their are many verses talking about others to be baptized but doesn't specify water and doing so in Jesus Name which is what I believe as well. I believe the fact that they must be baptized into the name of Christ proves that the Holy Spirit is the Baptism. “In the name” mean into the “authority and character of”. This is much more in line with the Holy Spirit. Additionally, we are to worship in the Spirit. Almost everything I believe in is now in the Spirit. In fact I can't think of anything that isn't.
Your right this is a very big deal and so far was the hardest topic for me to understand. Since I have come to understand it – I see much more now of what I'm supposed to conform to. You must work out your own salvation. I'm doing my part and coming to this forum in the best hopes to give you guidance but that means nothing if you don't convict yourself through careful study of God's Word to see if those things are so. That is my labor for as you can see in Revelation 2 and 3 its our works and labor that is going to be judged. If I help you in anyway and you enter the Kingdom of Heaven then this will go far in my reward. If I should make you stumble then I will be given due punishment. Like you said this is an important subject and you should really take time on this one and understand your position on it. Always try to be convicted in your understanding but only AFTER you have Filtered all positions through the Word of God. I have been convicted before in what I understood but was still wrong and later conformed and changed because that is what a Christian MUST do. You will hear phrases like “defend the faith” but those are phrases to which the likes of those that decieve want you to believe. Always conform to the Truth which is Jesus Christ.
Paul
Quote (trettep @ Mar. 21 2005,01:47) If you notice in the water baptisms it seems every account of a water baptism was from someone else that had already been baptized creating a chain of authority to baptize. That would mean that the chain would have to exists at this time and you would have to have your water baptism from someone that was baptized by someone etc… all the way back to the early Church. But the baptism of the Holy Spirit comes from Christ and Christ is the authority and we have that authority available at all times. Paul
I have had no reason to question the need for Christians to be baptised, so off the bat, I take the scriptures (and there are quite a few) at face value in favor of water baptism.Still, you raise an interesting point here with the above quote, trettep, and here is why: I was baptised by a Trinitarian and have watched many ushered into the kingdom in the same way. I have more recently come to feel that Trinitarianism is a spirit of Anti-Christ and resists the true God and his Christ. Having said that, this brings me to your quote.
I trust that God has maintained the “chain,” as you put it, but what of the many millions like myself who were baptised by someone who didn't know or believe in the one true God and his son Christ Jesus, but in a Trinity God (3 in 1)?
Just wondering, anyone?
And given my above post, shouldn't those of us who are not Trinitarians be needing to be baptised? And if so where do we go to have it done?!
A thought that occurs to me is that, the people that did the baptism did it in the name of “Father, son and holy spirit” or “Jesus,” I can't remember the exact words as I was very excited and…but perhaps that should be the important thing besides my own faith (which was not 3 in 1) in the eternal God and his Son.
And yet, doesn't it say that those who believe the gospel should go and preach it, baptising in the Name? (Mark 16:15…); but if those who baptised so many themselves believed in the the Trinity God rather than the one True God and his Christ, then doesn't that bring into question what and who we are baptised into?
Good question cubes and I take your point too Paul,
I was baptised in water 20 yrs ago by someone who had just been to a retreat and been baptised. But how far back the chain goes I would not know. Scripture makes it plain that there is no other name into which we can be baptised than that of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I think I was baptised in that name but since my friend died 15yrs ago I have tried but cannot find out. I have since baptised my seven children and a few others but there are few who understand these things enough to offer the true baptism.Paul, if you read the full account of Phillip and the Eunuch and see the words used by Peter after The Spirit manifested in Cornelius's house you will understand, I hope, that your theory about NT baptism being in Spirit only argues against scripture. Paul's own baptism as described in Acts 9 appears similar to Cornelius. We were told the Spirit was like a wind that blows where it will and yet we try to define it and put it in a box.
Your teaching opposes that of Peter and Paul, Phillip and Christ himself. But most will never change position on this vital issue so I leave you in the hands of the Master.Yes I would like to know about baptism as Cubes has said. What happens to those who were baptized in the Father, Son, Holy Spirit (not in the name of Jesus) . Do we need to be baptized or have we been already. Although I know that we can receive the Spirit even if we aren't baptized.
Also if we are to be baptized in the name of Jesus, should it be his original name 'Yehshua', or should we not worry about it, if we have the Spirit of God anyway.
I urge you study the subject closely. Find every reference on this subject and remember there was a change of the old way when Christ was crucified and resurrected. Those things that were formerly physical are now done spirtually. We must worship in the Spirit. The Spirit is the character of the Father in Heaven. Jesus has that character and all those that are born into the Family of God have that character. Once you accept that mission that you want to be into that Family and believe in that message which is the True Gospel you have then been Born Again and must begin your mission to produce good works. At the point at which you believe in the Gospel and accept it you have been Baptized by the Holy Spirit. Let me show another way – I don't get my doctrines from another man. I don't attend a fellowship other than on these forums. All the knowledge I have learned is owned to something – what is it? Is it of myself? – no! The Holy Spirit is revealing these things to me. How else can I know things that are mysteries. So if God has given me this Spirit than I assure you that you can have it to if you believe.
Paul
Quote (trettep @ Mar. 21 2005,13:04) I urge you study the subject closely. Find every reference on this subject and remember there was a change of the old way when Christ was crucified and resurrected. Those things that were formerly physical are now done spirtually. We must worship in the Spirit. The Spirit is the character of the Father in Heaven. Jesus has that character and all those that are born into the Family of God have that character. Once you accept that mission that you want to be into that Family and believe in that message which is the True Gospel you have then been Born Again and must begin your mission to produce good works. At the point at which you believe in the Gospel and accept it you have been Baptized by the Holy Spirit. Let me show another way – I don't get my doctrines from another man. I don't attend a fellowship other than on these forums. All the knowledge I have learned is owned to something – what is it? Is it of myself? – no! The Holy Spirit is revealing these things to me. How else can I know things that are mysteries. So if God has given me this Spirit than I assure you that you can have it to if you believe. Paul
Hi Paul,
You are preaching a new gospel here.So accepting the mission that you want to be born into the family of God and believing in the true gospel makes you born again?
So that is what “you must be born again of water and the Spirit” means to you? That is an unusual interpretation of the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
Your salvation requires no sign before God and men. It sounds like an intellectual decision and not a spiritual event.
Surely we are not born into the family of God of our wants. It is not according to just desire is it? Some days my wants differ from other days. Do you not even have to make any commitment?
Your understanding may satisfy you but will it be of any value when you meet the Master? Are we all able to make up our own paths to God or is there a “way”.
Can we just join the vine so easily and start producing fruit of our own efforts immediately?
Jesus said “follow me”, and you must go through the “gate”. He was baptised in water and filled with the Spirit but in following him you say it is OK just to receive the Spirit? That is not obedience. That is not following him is it?
He said anyone who climbs in any other way is a thief and a robber.And it is weak and unspiritual teachings like this that have divided and almost destroyed the church.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
