God's plan of salvation as revealed in Scripture

[NickHassan]

Hi,
If you were a servant working hard in the kitchen of an old wealthy English manor, earning very little and living in poor accommodation, and you dropped a pile of plates and broke them you would likely be dismissed.
But if you were the lazy son of the Duke playing cricket on the lawn and you happened to hit the ball through the stained glass window probably nothing would happen.The window would just get fixed and it is likely the Duke wouldn't even get to know about it.

Here is the question.

Why would anyone offered the opportunity to become a member of the King of King's family prefer to stay working in the kitchen?

[Proclaimer]

True that. Unless you wanted access to the fridge 24 hours a day, he he. But then again the Duke could have 10 fridges if he wanted. Better to be born of the free woman, than the slave woman.

Galatians 4:22-23
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.
23 His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.

[Proclaimer]

Here is another scripture confirming that our salvation is dependant on us remaining in Christ.

2 John 1:9
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

[NickHassan]

Quite so t8,
We have a black labrador called Monty,

Under the Old Testament he is A VERY BAD DOG. His crimes and indiscretions, if tallied, would reach from here to Wellington and back. He wanders, steals food and has entirely no sense of propriety. Anyone in any doubt should come and look at the rubbish bag I found emptied on my drive today!

However under the New Testament he is MY BEAUTIFUL DOG. He is loving and friendly and full of fun. He forgives me instantly and is always happy to see me usually bringing me a lttle gift with his tail wagging. He is absolutely part of the family and life without him is unimaginable. We love him.

The gap between Monty and me is vast. But it is nothing compared with the distance between our creator and us. He loves me more than we love Monty-or even our spouse or our children and grandchildren. And He is not counting my indiscretions anymore either.
Amazing.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
The real challenge is not salvation.
Gal 3.23″ Before faith came we were under the constraint of the Law, locked in until the faith that was coming should be revealed. In other words the law was our monitor until Christ came to bring about our justification through faith. But now that faith is here we are no longer under the monitor's charge. Each one of you is a son of God because of your faith in Jesus Christ. All of you who have been baptised into Christ have clothed yourself with him.There does not exist among you Jew or Greek, slave or freeman,male or female.All are one in Christ Jesus.”
But in the next chapter Paul says
” Have I become your enemy just because I tell you the truth?”
and ” You are my children and you put me back in labour pains until Christ is formed in you”

So being born into Christ is easy but having Christ born into us is a slow and difficult process -like labour.Evicting sinful habits and acquiring through prayer and suffering the gifts and graces of God are the internal rebuiding process. We must put on the new man created in God's image and be transformed by the renewing of our hearts and minds-till we have the mind of Christ. This is the truth that is in Jesus[Eph4.22]

Eph 3.14″ that is why I kneel before the Father from whom every family in heaven and on earth takes it's name, and I pray that He will bestow on you gifts in keeping with the riches of His glory. May He strengthen you inwardly through the working of His Spirit. May Christ dwell in your hearts through faith and may charity be the root and foundation of your life”

[Proclaimer]

Even though I was aware of it, it has just struck me more deeply that the last enemy being destroyed and the resurrection of believers seem intertwined.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Hebrews 1:13
To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”
Also see Psalm 110:1

Hebrews 10:13
Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool,

1 Corinthians 15:50-55
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed–
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
     Where, O death, is your sting?”
also see Isaiah

So is the defeat of all enemies related in timing to the following verses?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

So are we transformed at the same time when death is conquered?

Is not death conquered now, if not when?
If so, then perhaps we can be raised at anytime now and what is God waiting for?

Maybe the gospel being preached to all nations and other prophecies is all that is left?

Also are these scriptures related to the absence of death mentioned in the Book of Revelation.

Revelation 9:6
During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

Any ideas.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
A few thoughts
1Cor 15.22
” Just as in Adam all die so in Christ all will come to life again, but each in proper order: Christ the first fruits
and then at his coming all those who belong to him.
After that will come the end, when after destroying every sovereignty, authority and power, he will hand over the kingdom to God the Father.
Christ must reign until God has put all enemies under his feet AND THE LAST ENEMY TO BE DESTROYED IS DEATH”

Now I believe you are right in that, for the saved, death is swallowed up at resurrection.[1Cor 15 54] but death will still be among the nations and it will be the last enemy overcome by Yashua among them in the 1000 yr reign. He must first overcome the other things.

What do you think?

[NickHassan]

Also t8,
At the end of the 1000yr reign Satan is released and incites a rebellion against Yashua[Ps2]and this results in death for those involved.So death still exists till that point does it not?
Which brings me to another point.
During the 1000 years Satan does not influence 'the nations'or the saved[rev 20.1-8]
This is the time also when the lion will lie down with the lamb.[? a result of Satan's bondage]
and a youth will die at 100[Is 65.20]
[? another result of Satan's bondage -this must only apply to the nations also as we will have an imperishable body?]

Does this mean there will be no accidents or disease? are these results of Satan's influence?

And when Jesus spoke of “His Father's House” where he went to prepare a place for us [Jn 14.2f]is this the waiting place for Christian souls [Hades and Paradise only for the OT] and if so is it in Heaven or on earth?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
To whom was Jesus sent to bring the good news of Salvation?
“Matt 15.24″…I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel”

We are gentiles who are outside of the Old Covenant and the Law.

So any teachings about the place of the Law, such as in Matt 5 and the Lawyer and the rich young man must be viewed in that context.

We are outsiders who get the crumbs that fall from the table. Gentiles are helped by Jesus but their role in the gospels are very limited.

It was only when God showed Peter and Paul that we too could take advantage of this salvation that we become a part of God's New Covenant plan of God. God knew all along we would be included but the chosen people had to be given the first opportunity to accept or reject it.

[Cubes]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 18 2004,09:36)

“and I give eternal life for them, and they shall never perish; and NO ONE shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all; and NO ONE is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand” John 10:28-30 (emphasis added). I read the words “no one” to include the saved person him/herself.

Hi Is 1:18:

I disagree with Calvin's views regarding “once saved always saved.”  I don't know all of Calvin's views so I don't speak to all.

If the above view were true, we should not have the Epistles of Jude, Hebrews 3 & 4, the Epistles of Peter, Revelations, John and all the bible.  If that were so, the Jews (though I believe in the promises of God and the place of natural Israel in God's economy), would not have only certain members among them saved.  That is to say, all of natural Israel should be automatically saved, even in the OT.  God has not changed.  

Jude, Peter and the writer of Hebrews should have had no reason to cite the wilderness experience for our teaching in the NT.  Calvin's view here is akin to trinitarian teaching, it is unscriptural.

I think it is what or part of what Peter meant when he said:

2 Peter 3:14-18:

14:  Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.  
15:  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16:  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto thier own destruction.
17:  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18:  but grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.  To him be lglory both now and for ever.  Amen.

I am not a biblical scholar so I speak as a layman, not a theologian.  But it strikes me that Paul is the apostle who expounded on grace the most, as he tried to teach gentiles who knew hardly anything about God.  And we all know about Romans with regards to sin vs grace.  

I think this was Peter's way of warning us, saying, some have picked and chosen what they want to believe in Paul's epistles with regards to salvation through grace, to their own detriment.

With regards to #6 in the OP, I don't believe that Jesus is walking around keeping a score card of our wrongs, but I think he expects us to yield to the development of his own nature within us…and sometimes that requires hard choices.
In Paul's writings, and the bible in general, we run into verbs like “repent, exercise, endure, wrestle, run, stand, go, resist, flee, contend…”  This require some effort on our part as we yield to the leading of the spirit.

God bless.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
If you look at the scripture quoted from John 10 it says “no one” is able to snatch us out of Jesus's hand or the Father's hand. So that includes Satan I would assume.
That fits with 2 Tim 2.11f because it is only by rejecting our own salvation that we are able to lose it,
Or
not by producing any profit on the investment God has made in us in terms of fruit[Matt 25.14f].

The “Gardener” checks the plants for fruit and gives us more opportunities to serve Him usefully.
Lk 13.6
“… A man had an fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper
'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down.Why does it even use up the ground?'
And he answered and said to him
'Let it alone sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertiliser;and if it bears fruit next year,fine;but if not, cut it down”

If the Father is the vineyard owner then Jesus must be the vineyard keeper, who is our advocate with the Father.Do others agree?

So it is only our own actions or lack of them that can be the problem.

[Cubes]

Hi Nick,

I agree and those are good points about Jesus as our advocate, so that we should be advocaters too.

Pharaoh was unable to get his hands on the children of Israel but on Sinai, God was ready to destroy most of them and start over with Moses (and hopefully Joshua who was always not far from Moses or the tabernacle once it was erected). And like Jesus, Moses advocated for them and God had mercy. Still, it was Moses who said to them to: choose life. In the end, only their children made it through to the land which the Lord their God had given to them besides Joshua and Caleb.

Concerning Paul's writings, the later chapters of Romans (chapter 9 onwards through to 15), deals with these things.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 18 2004,06:58)

Hi Is, The other scripture about this is in 2 Tim 2 ” Therefore I bear with all of this for the sake of those whom God has chosen in order that they MAY OBTAIN the salvation to be found in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. You can depend on this IF WE HAVE DIED WITH HIM [IN BAPTISM] WE SHALL ALSO LIVE WITH HIM. IF WE HOLD OUT TO THE END WE SHALL ALSO REIGN WITH HIM.[REV.20.4]……..BUT IF WE DENY HIM HE WILL DENY US……..IF WE ARE UNFAITHFUL HE WILL STILL REMAIN FAITHFUL FOR HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF. So only personally rejecting our salvation can lose us the prize. [/I][/U]

That is correct. A good understanding is to stay away from the devils doctrine that one is saved now. The only thing that saves a person is Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ within one is saved so long as they don't reject Christ but the reward of that Salvation doesn't come till Christ returns at the end of our Faith when we no longer need Faith because Christ will be with us.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Hi Paul,
Scripture says

We have been saved [Tit 3.5,1Cor 15.2,Rom 8.24,Eph 2.5,Eph 2.8, 2 Tim 1.9,Acts
We are being saved [2Cor 2.15,1Peter4.18,]
and
We will be saved.[Jn 10.9,1Cor 3.15,Matt 10.22,Mk 16.16,etc]

We must work out our salvation and fear and trembling.

Roman 8 24 puts it best
“For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope;for who hopes for what he already sees.”

[trettep]

Here is a post I made on another forum and the reply I got back by someone that believes in the “saved” doctrine:

Posted: Saturday March 19, 2005 10:18 pm Post subject:

——————————————————————————–

trettep wrote:
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

These comments could not be made if it falling away wasn't possible otherwise they would be made in vain. So only those that are obedient can be in the Father's hand.

Paul

The reply:

I have read and heard all sorts of interpretations of this passage in Hebrews, but the best one I have ever come across was explained by Dr. J. B. Rowell who wrote an article in a publication of the Dallas Theological Seminary. It is pretty lengthy, but the bottom line is that this passage wasn't talking about saved people losing their salvation. It was talking about baby (immature) Christians who weren't producing any fruit. Read the previous chapter. It calls them babes taking milk rather than meat. Then, it goes into chapter 6 and speaks of bearing thorns and thistles. I agree with Dr. Rowell in that this is speaking of a very immature Christian who is not producing fruit. It is probably someone who has not lived the most Christian life and may not have a real good testimony for Christ. Yet, it never says that such a person loses his salvation. This type of Christian will have works of wood, hay and stubble rather than gold, silver and precious stones. Of course the wood, hay and stubble will be burned up. I wouldn't look for many rewards in heaven for such a Christian as this, either. Anyway, I know those who believe in LDS will not agree with this interpretation, but I believe it is the best I have found. No doubt, this passage has confused many over the years.
__

[NickHassan]

Hi Paul,
Certainly that makes sense as it comes just after the basics of christian teaching are laid out “again” in Heb 6.1-2 and before the mention is made of the necessity to “drink” in the “rain” of the Spirit to allow the good seed of the gospel to germinate and grow usefully such that it can produce fruit.

Of course we have to be good soil too and we have to be ploughed land that has repented and none of us fully repent before we are saved and weeds have to be plucked out as we go along.

It does sound as though getting off on the right foot is necessary to allow Yeshua to be formed in us.

The other simillar scripture warning about complacency after salvation is 1Cor 10.1f
” For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and all were baptised into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spitiual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock, which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless with most of them God was not well-pleased;for they were laid low in the wilderness. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved”

[trettep]

Yes those verses about the baptism of Moses and the children of Israel are an example (physical) of this later period that is done spirtually. We should ALWAYS look for these former types in studying anything in the Bible. The confusion usually is in the time period of the transition period when the Old Covenant ends and the New Covenant begins. Here even Christ is adhering to the Old Covenant while bringing in the New such as in the case of baptism.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Not with you there. Can you explain further?

[trettep]

John the Baptist baptised with water but Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. John's baptism is a former type. The former type had to continue until the Comforter (Holy Spirit) came and then was poured out. It took the Apostles some time to realize this. I don't think its until the middle of Chapter 11 of Acts that Peter “remembers”. There is really only one baptism that is to take place. We are to worship in the Spirit and by all the evidence I am seeing almost everything with worshiping God is done in the Spirit including baptism. In other words the baptism with water (physical water) was done as a former type (an example) of the later type (Holy Spirit). This is why the Holy Spirit is referred to as pure water. Look up the phrase “pure water” in the King James. Jesus had to be baptized in the physical water because the pure water was not available but he was still setting an example even though later this physical water would change to the spirtual pure water of the Holy Spirit which was poured out on the day of Pentacost. This is amazing knowledge and one of the harder things to swallow in doctrine but what I'm saying is that there is no need of physical water baptism. The water baptism is by the Holy Spirit and since we are to worship in the Spirit we have no need of the physical rituals that were done in the former.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Hi Paul,
If you are saying that water baptism is unnecessary in the New Testament I would have to disagree. Baptism in the Spirit is not a spiritual version of the water baptism. Both are necessary.

As 1Peter 3 shows God's forgiveness comes through water baptism and we need to washed in clean water to approach the throne of God as Heb 10.22 tells us.
Circumcision was necessary under the Old covenant and water baptism is the circumcision of the New covenant as Coll 2.10 tells us.We are baptised into Christs death as Romans 6.4 tells us, so those who do not submit to this word and obey God is yet to join the body of Christ.
Those who obtain power irregularly and cast out demons in his name are told”I do not know you” so that power is not by itself proof of salvation. We need to follow Christ and, like him, need the witnesses of 1Jn 5.7-8.[in it's true translation

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