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Hi Nate,
Scripture never says we are called away to heaven. We meet in the air -the earth's atmosphere prior to arrival on the Earth?hey nick,
that's what i was saying…
cheers,
nate.
Okey doke Nate.where to from there?
In my reading it seems the wedding feast of the Lamb follows [Rev 19.9] before the armies surround Jerusalem and Jesus and His armies destroy them[ Rev 19.11].
So where would the feast be held? On top of Mount Zion or in the air?, and how long does it take? I have always thought it would be the 3 and a half years period [ie mid trib rapture but who knows?] of the 2nd half of the tribulation but any help from you to clarify this would be good.hey nick,
john doesn't actually mention the wedding feast taking place, just that the time had come and the bride had made herself ready… whether this is a chronological vision is not entirely certain anyway, because it isn't until later (20:4-5) that the first resurrection is mentioned, whereas paul says that the dead in christ shall be raised first… and presumably those who belong to the first resurrection would take part in the wedding feast… either, it's talking about the very end – the return of jesus – so i can't see any room for a latter-day style rapture…
cheers,
nate.
Good points nate,
2 Peter2.5 ” Nor did He spare the ancient world-even though He preserved Noah as preacher of holiness ,with 7 others when He brought down that flood on the godless earth. He blanketed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah in ashes and condemned them to destruction thereby showing what would happen in future to the godless. He did deliver Lot, however , a just man oppressed by the conduct of men unprincipled in their lusts….The lord knows how to rescue devout men from trial ..”
3.7ff” the present heavens and earth are reserved by God's word for fire:they are kept for the day of judgement , the day when godless men will be destroyed….The day of the Lord will come like a theif ,and on that day the heavens will vanish with a roar:the elements will be destroyed by fire …Since everything is to be destrooyed in this way what sort of men must you not be…. Because of it the heavens will be destroyed in flames ,and the elements will melt away in a blaze”So what can we learn here.
Few will be rescued as only a handful were protected from the many in those days.No one was rescued by removal from the earth when God executed these judgements. They were just kept safe. Noah would have seen and heard the rain that killed all of mankind but he was protected from it's effects by his obedience. So also with Lot who was sent to a safe place.
So if the same pattern occurs rapture is only to meet Jesus after the tribulation and not to remove us from the fire. We too will see the events of the end but will be kept safe on earth by our obedience and preparedness. We will not experience God's wrath which will kill all the godless.
I don't necessarily advocate this scenario but put it forward as another possibility.
Hi nate,
The most dramatic view of endtimes is Is 24.1ff
” Lo the Lord empties the land and lays it waste .He turns it upside down scattering it's inhabitants…The earth is utterly laid waste , utterly stripped..The windows on high will be opened .The earth will burst asunder,the earth will be shaken apart, the earth will be convulsed. The earth will reel like a drunkard and it will sway like a hut: it's rebellion will weigh it down until it falls , never to rise again”Ch 25 .6 may give a hint of the wedding feast.” On this mountain the Lord of Hosts will provide for all peoples a feast of rich food and choice wines “
ch 26. 20 may give an idea of God's rescue plan.
” Go my people , enter your chambers and close the door behind you. Hide yourselves for s brief moment until the wrath is passed. See,the Lord goes forth from His place to punish the wicked ness of the earth's inhabitants”Does it make sense?
hey nick,
Quote
ch 26. 20 may give an idea of God's rescue plan.
” Go my people , enter your chambers and close the door behind you. Hide yourselves for s brief moment until the wrath is passed. See,the Lord goes forth from His place to punish the wicked ness of the earth's inhabitants”if this is refering to the end times, it could line up with what revelations says about the woman retreating into the wilderness where a place had been prepared for her… (ch 13?)
cheers,
nate.
Hi Nate,
I quite agree but the woman is the Jewish people I believe.the 12 stars around her head represent the 12 tribes and she produces a SON. We know Jesus will protect some of the jewish people ? who obey His instructions to get out of town smartly when “the abominable thing standing on Holy Ground”[mt 24.16f]
The son is “Destined to shepherd all the nations with and iron rod” [Rev 12.5] so that has to be Jesus in the millenial kingdom. That child is caught up to God and His throne. Could that possibly be the rescue of the BODY of Christ? Probably not as as that is heaven and we are not due there for over 1000 yrs. Or is it the new Jerusalem -with God making His throne on earth? [rev 21. 3.] in which case it might be possible?Hi nate,
If ,[in Rev 12]the snatching up of the “boy” is the rapture and the protection of the woman is the rescue of some of the Jews then it may fit with v 17.
” Enraged at her escape the dragon went off to make war on the rest of her offspring”“on those who keep God's commandments”-the remaining jews
“and give witness to Jesus” -the remaining NT believers who were not ready to be taken.
Then 13.10
” If on is destined for captivity into captivity he goes! If one is destined to be slain by the sword, by the sword he will be slain! Such is the faithful endurance that distinguishes God's holy people”- could this mean that prayer will no longer be effective to change God's plan for those left behind?hey nick,
i'll just limit my answer to rev 13:10, because i think that your translation of this (is it niv?) is a bit misleading… i think the original is more like – “he who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who lives by the sword will be killed by the sword. here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.”
to my basic understanding this is talking about cause and effect – kind of like “eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth”… thinking about it further, i would say (purely my own opinion) that it is a godly injuction against the saints “leading into captivity” and “killing with the sword” – even in the name of god (or justice, or righteousness), which we can see has become more and more prevalent in our day (eg america, afganistan, iraq, israel/palestine, indonesia, barundi/rwanda, etc…), and that “he who endures to the end” avoiding this “law of moses” style interpretation of justice, and following jesus' teachings of love, “shall be saved,” even though (or especially if) this cost him his life…
i haven't really got an opinion on who exactly the woman and the child are – not having ever really studied it closely… but i'll look into it and tell you what i think in a couple of days…
cheers,
nate.
Quite so nate and good point. I use NASB mostly but I have checked Good News and the NIV and their interpretation reads almost the same as the NASB but the KJV is radically different in meaning. Where are the experts when you need them?
I put you wrong nate. The bible I am using at home is the NEW AMERICAN bible and not NASB which I use at work. The NASB differs again and a footnote says “some manuscripts read kills”
hey nick,
um… oh – you mean where i wrote “lives by the sword” – true, my mistake, it should be “kills by the sword”… but i think the meaning is the same…
cheers,
nate.
Hi nate,
The story of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and psalms like 46 and 91 speak of God's amazing ability to protect his people despite the disasters that surround them.Likewise the Passover when blood on the lintels caused the angel of death to pass by. If God chooses that path then it will take faith to stand firm and trust in Him through the tribulation.Who knows?who indeed?
Hi nate,
Rev 6.8″…These 4 were given authority over one quarter of the earth, to kill with sword and Famine and the WILD BEASTS OF THE EARTH.”
Did you know there are 7000 pet tigers in the USA alone[TIME Aug 04]. Also wolves are being released back into the park there. Given that most of the cities in the last days will be rubble[Is 24]then it is likely these animals will be roaming the streets.Hi,
Paul's letters were written to the saved, not the unsaved. Rom 14.10 “But all shall have to appear before the judgement seat of God”The world faces the sheep and goat judgement which is a judgement of possible condemnation. We will be there too, in Jesus, on the judgement seat. For “there is no condemnation for them that are IN Christ Jesus”.Rom 8.1 We will already have faced the Tribunal of Christ.
2 Cor 5.7 ” We walk by faith, not by sight. I repeat, we are full of confidence and would much rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. This being so we make it our aim to please him, whether we are with him or away from him.The lives of all of us are to be revealed before the TRIBUNAL OF CHRIST so that each one may receive his recompense, good or bad, according to his life in the body.”
This tribunal is detailed in Mt 25.14 just before the sheep and goat judgement, the parable of the silver pieces, recompense for the life in the body-the use of the fruit and gifts of the Spirit in the service of our Master's kingdom.The silver pieces are those graces belonging to the Master and shared among his servants.
That is why we need to seek more of the power and abilities that come from the Spirit so that we can gain on that initial investment for our own sakes as well as the kingdom's sake.
Regarding reward, the following scriptures are enlightning.
Mark 4:20
Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop–thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown.”1 Corinthians 3
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds.
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.- So we can see different degrees of reward on top of salvation.
- Salvation is also guaranteed if Jesus Christ is our foundation.
- It is possible to be saved and receive no extra reward.
Hi t8,
I agree. Talking about seeds Jesus says in Jn 12
” I solemnly assure you, unless the grain of wheat falls to the earth and dies it remains just a grain of wheat. But if it dies it produces much fruit “
He was talking about himself and us. But it is so much easier for us. We do not need to physically die as he did ,only be baptised into his death and when we are raised up by the Spirit we can start to grow.
And then in Mk 4 he says
” This is how it is with the reign of God . A man scatters seed on the ground. He goes to bed and gets up day after day . Through it all the seed sprouts and grows without his knowing how it happens The soil produces of itself first the blade, then the ear, finally the ripe wheat in the ear “So following obedience to God much later comes, by the work of God, the fruit of the Spirit. Then we become aware of the Spirit blowing like the wind through our lives beyond our understanding and making us into useful men of God.
Jesus said about himself in Rev 22
” It is I, Jesus, who have sent my angel to give you this testimony about the churches. I am the root and offspring of David, the MORNING STAR shining brightly”
.
Peter, in his second letter, when talking about 'eating' the food of the soul, the Word of God, said.
“Keep your attention closely fixed on it, as you would on a lamp shining in a dark place until the first streaks of dawn appear and the MORNING STAR rises in your hearts”Truly “Man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God”
Hi,
Paul put it another way when writing to the Galatians.
3.26
“For you are all sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ. For all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed yourself with him”
4.6
“And because you are sons. God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts crying 'Abba! Father”
yet in 4.18
“My children ,with whom I am again in labour UNTIL CHRIST IS FORMED IN YOU”First the planting, then the watering and finally the plant.
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