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Quote (Guest @ May 26 2005,19:39) http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/jewish_marriage_customs.htm
Yes lovely words.
Till the deception that only an act of intellectual assent is sufficient for salvation. Even we are a little more formal than that with a ring given as a token or sign of commitment. Should eternal salvation rest on a momentary thought? What of the witnesses Jesus required in 1 Jn 5.6f?Does the bride not wash in preparation for the wedding?
Eph 5.25
” Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her;that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing;but that she should be holy and blameless”Hi Gal 6.9
” Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived;neither fornicators , nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor theives, nor the covetous, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you;but you have been WASHED, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the SPIRIT of our God”You must be born again of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 18 2005,20:54) Hi E,
You must be born again to enter the kingdom.
Really!?!? no kidding!!! wow… thats deep….
Hi E,
You asked about the appropriate forum and then when I show you you criticise the Words of Jesus?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2005,03:53) Hi Gal 6.9
” Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived;neither fornicators , nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor theives, nor the covetous, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you;but you have been WASHED, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the SPIRIT of our God”You must be born again of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.
and hey Nick, if you want to join the Roman Catholics who teach baptismal regeneration, and deny the true gospel that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone… have at it…. whats one more heretical belief added to all the others you have?1 Peter 1:18-19 NIV For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, (19) but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
why do you want to add to Christ's work by saying that it isn't good enough to save… that man has to pour water over his head or be immersed in it to “really” be saved? Man is saved by Christ's actions, not man's…. salvation is totally and completly of the Lord, it is He who began a good work, and it is He who will complete it….
Romans 3:20 ESV For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:21-28 ESV But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it– (22) the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. (26) It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (27) Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. (28) For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
I also need to point out that you misquoted Scripture above, it is not Gal 6:9 that you (wrongly) appeal to in support of baptismal regeneration, but is rather 1 Cor. 6:11…. you need to be more careful with God's word Nick… this same sloppiness is revealed in your exegesis, just as much as your quotation… Paul was not saying that the process of being “washed” in 1 Cor 6:11 was what saved, but is rather a past tense event that was simply part of sanctification…
this term “washed” “is not to be understood of external washing, of corporeal ablution, or of their being baptized in water; so they might be, and yet not be cleansed from their filthiness, either by original or actual transgressions; nor of the washing of regeneration, which more properly comes under the next head; but of their being washed from their sins by the blood of Christ, through the application of it to them, for the remission of them; which supposes them to have been polluted, as they were originally, being conceived in sin, and shapen in iniquity; naturally, for who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? and internally, in heart, mind, and conscience; also universally, both as to persons, and as to the powers and faculties of their souls, and members of their bodies; and that they could not wash and cleanse themselves by any ceremonial purifications, moral duties, or evangelical performances; but that this was a blessing of grace they enjoyed through the blood of Christ, by which they were washed from their sins, both in the sight of God, his justice being satisfied for them, they were all pardoned and done away, so as to be seen no more, and they appeared unblamable and irreprovable in his sight; and also in their own apprehensions, for being convinced of their pollution, and being directed to Christ for cleansing, the Spirit of God took his blood, and sprinkled it on their consciences, to the appeasement of them, the removal of sin from thence, and a non-remembrance of it.” Gill
I know you like questions Nick… here are some for you:
“If baptism is a requirement for salvation…
Why do dozens of passages of scripture refer to salvation through faith, without mentioning baptism (John 5:24, John 6:29, Acts 13:39, Acts 16:31, Romans 1:16, Romans 4:5, Galatians 3:24, 1 Peter 1:5, etc.)?
Why are works excluded from the salvation process (Romans 4:4-6, Romans 9:30-10:4, Romans 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9, etc.)?
Why is the man in Mark 2:5 saved without being baptized?
Why is the woman in Luke 7:50 saved without being baptized?
Why is the man in Luke 17:19 saved without being baptized?
Why does Jesus use a man who repents without being baptized as an example of how people are saved (Luke 18:10-14)?
Why is the man in Luke 23:39-43 saved without being baptized?
Why do the believers in Acts 10:44-48 receive the Holy Spirit, the seal of salvation (Ephesians 1:13-14), before being baptized?
Why does Paul, in Acts 19:2, expect believers to have received the Holy Spirit when they believed rather than when they were baptized?
Why does Paul, in Romans 4, use Abraham, an unbaptized man, as the example of how all people are saved?
Why does Paul, in Romans 10, refer to believing response to the preached word, not water baptism, as the final step in reaching the lost?
Why, among the many salvation passages in scripture, is there no passage saying that those who are not baptized will not be saved?” (http://members.aol.com/jasonte/baptism.htm)
I look forward to your responses to these questions….
Hi E,
What did Jesus mean when he spoke of the need to be born again of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom?Hi E,
The catholic view is akin to magic and we do not believe in that approach. Their view is that the ceremony itself without knowledge or faith or repentance saves and that is why they baptise infants lest they die young.
No we believe in what Peter said to the crowds at Pentecost in Acts 2 and which was demonstrated by the faithful disciples of Jesus in Acts. Nothing has changed since then.Nick, the respectful thing to do is to answer the questions. You expect your questions to be answered, so why can't you extend the same courtesy to others?
I would be more than happy to answer your questions, as I have done repeatedly in this forum, the least you can do, is the same.
blessings
Hi E,
Wading through the long derivations of the theologians and “divines” that you quote to us make it slow and laborious work answering your questions.
I find their reflections largely unhelpful and would prefer that you give us the Word of God itself as it is more nourishing and as base we can share and discuss.Hi E,
The teaching in Jn 3 from Jesus Christ is not shallow but deep.He said you MUST be born again so it is vital that we all make sure we have complied with this demand. Besides if we cannot see the kingdom till we have then all expertise from those who have not yet obeyed is hot air.So before we should look at your rationalisations and justifications as to why what Peter and the apostles taught and did was not true I think we need to understand better the words of Christ here. They were at his feet and their work in Acts reflected his teaching. They preached Christ and baptised men into Christ for the forgiveness of sin. They are examples to us till Christ returns and I prefer their leadership to that of other experts who may be wolves in sheep's clothing.
Do you say Peter and Paul were deceived or you have received higher and more modern insights than they were given?
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 18 2005,21:40) 1 Peter 1:18-19 NIV For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, (19) but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. why do you want to add to Christ's work by saying that it isn't good enough to save… that man has to pour water over his head or be immersed in it to “really” be saved? Man is saved by Christ's actions, not man's…. salvation is totally and completly of the Lord, it is He who began a good work, and it is He who will complete it….
Romans 3:20 ESV For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:21-28 ESV But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it– (22) the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. (26) It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (27) Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. (28) For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Hi E
Christ has done enough for all men to be saved.But all men will not be.
Neither will all men who hear of the gospel.
Neither will all men who believe in God.
Neither those who put their faith in the Son of God.
That faith has to be with repentance and baptism for the forgiveness of sin as a witness before God and the angels and men as preached by the apostles.
It is not that we know the Lord but that he knows us and our names are written in the book of life.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 18 2005,20:56) Hi E,
You asked about the appropriate forum and then when I show you you criticise the Words of Jesus?
Nick, you had at one point said that “You must be born again to enter the kingdom” to which I had sarcastically repliedReally!?!? no kidding!!! wow… thats deep….”
The reason I said that so sarcastically is that you are once again affirming what I do not deny, as if I am or havre ever denied that you must be born again to enter the kingdom!!!! You cannot produce one SHRED of evidence that I EVER denied this to be the case… as I mentioned to someone earlier, you have a nasty habit of asking compound questions or making compond statements that are assuming something that is not true, and then proceeding forward arguing as if this false statement were true….. to put it a little more simply, the classic example always given here would be for me to ask you “Nick, when did you stop beating your wife?” Do you see what happens here? I am here assuming something that is not true, that you beat your wife, and the proceeding to ask a question as if you did…. you do that sort of thing all the time to others, just as you did in your statement above, telling me that “You must be born again to enter the kingdom”. The inclination is to answer as one of my kids might here and say along with them… “well…. duuhhhhhh”… becasue I have to ask you, who ever said anything contrary to that…. ?? lol… its like me telling you “Nick, if you jump off a building, you will fall.” To which we can all say “well gee… that was informative, thanks alot… that was a… blindingly clear restatement of the obvious”. You can do without that information, just as I can do without some of your comments, as I asked you before, do us both a favor and do not waste our time by making claimns that I affirm or deny anything, unless I actually do affirm or deny it… now really… that I even have to say this is…. well… a blindingly clear statement of the obvious but unfortauntely, in this case, it needs to be said… sad really…
blessings
Hi E,
Then perhaps you should treat the words of Christ with more respect, and not always seem to react as you are being accused of something. We are not talking about you or accusing you but sharing and rightly dividing the most precious words ever written.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2005,03:53) Hi Gal 6.9
” Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived;neither fornicators , nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor theives, nor the covetous, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you;but you have been WASHED, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the SPIRIT of our God”You must be born again of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.
Hi,
E is quite right. I did say this was Gal 6.9 but of course it is 1 Cor 6 9-11. Hey I know I am not perfect.
But Galations does say something on this matter
Gal 3.27
“For all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed yourself with Christ”That does show that Jesus is the gate of the sheep and to be covered by his royal garments of righteousness and be able to stand before our Father we need to be baptised.
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