God's plan of salvation as revealed in Scripture

[Cubes]

Hi Trettep:

Scripture to Scripture as we try to understand and do the will of God.

Please review Acts 18:24 – 19:8

ACTS 18:
24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John.
26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;
28 for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.

ACTS 19:
1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John's baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
7 Now the men were about twelve in all.
8 And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God.

 

[NickHassan]

Hi trettep,
Did he say what is born of water is flesh or are you reading that little bit in there?
I guess we had better agree to disagree again

[trettep]

Quote (Cubes @ April 19 2005,18:10)

Hi Trettep: Scripture to Scripture as we try to understand and do the will of God. Please review Acts 18:24 – 19:8 ACTS 18: 24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace; 28 for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. ACTS 19: 1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John's baptism.” 4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7 Now the men were about twelve in all. 8 And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God.   Apollos preached Christ but baptized the people into John's baptism being all he knew (Acts 19:3) Paul came and added to their understanding, then “they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus” (Acts 19:5) “And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied” (Acts 19:6) This is after Acts 10 and 11, judging by the scripture address anyway.

Yes Cubes, I agree with everything there. Maybe you can be more specific on what part is causing some confusion and I will try to explain.

Paul

[Cubes]

Well, Trett, in Acts 19:5, I take it to mean they were water baptized by water, then the laying on of hands, and the second baptism by the holy spirit in Acts 19:6.

How do you understand it?

[trettep]

Quote (Cubes @ April 19 2005,22:34)

Well, Trett, in Acts 19:5, I take it to mean they were water baptized by water, then the laying on of hands, and the second baptism by the holy spirit in Acts 19:6. How do you understand it?

Read it like it says.  Water is not mentioned.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
7 Now the men were about twelve in all.

Notice the part that says “and when”  in verse 6.  Verse 5 and 6 are together.  Its the laying on of hands in verse 6 that the baptism is taking place when the Holy Spirit came upon them.

Let me explain the verses in my own understanding:

When they heard this, they were submerged into the character/authority of the Lord Jesus by the Holy Spirit from the laying on of hands by Paul, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Now the men were about twelve in all.

I hope that makes sense.  

Even though its Paul's hands its still Jesus doing the baptizing.

Paul

[Cubes]

So you believe that this change from water to spirit baptism occurred in Acts 10 (based on our previous discussions)?  If so, then another way to test your position is to see whether or not the mention of “water” (in water baptism) started and stopped at a certain point in time.  Do you think that would be a reliable test of your theory?
 

You also wrote: “Baptism by fire is the trying of our faith.  Its the second death – its by that fire what the wicked become ashes under the saints feet.

Paul”

I am thinking that you are perhaps talking about the process of dying to self and not THE Second death, of which the faithful in Christ have no part or have anything to do with?  Please elaborate.

Punctuated with question mark and quotation marks as needed.

[trettep]

Quote (Cubes @ April 19 2005,23:51)

So you believe that this change from water to spirit baptism occurred in Acts 10 (based on our previous discussions)?  If so, then another way to test your position is to see whether or not the mention of “water” (in water baptism) started and stopped at a certain point in time.  Do you think that would be a reliable test of your theory?   You also wrote:  “Baptism by fire is the trying of our faith.  Its the second death – its by that fire what the wicked become ashes under the saints feet. Paul” I am thinking that you are perhaps talking about the process of dying to self and not THE Second death, of which the faithful in Christ have no part or have anything to do with?  Please elaborate. Punctuated with question mark and quotation marks as needed.

I believe the precise time that the Apostles would have stopped doing water baptisms would have been during the communication by Peter to the rest of the Apostles in Acts 11.

As for the second death:

Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won't be harmed by the second death.

Notice who gets the message in the verse above – its a message to the Church.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.

Rev 20:14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Now we know what the second death consists of – fire.

Rev 21:8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Now we have some of the criteria for who goes into it.

Mat 12:31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

Notice in the above verse that Sodom and Gomorrah were example of eternal fire. But if that fire was eternal then we could easily find the cities because we just need to look for the smoke. The translation like so much of the topic of hell is incorrect. The eternal part is the punishment so the eternal fire is really a fire with eternal punishment. Like that fire this one will also go out after it finishes consuming.

Luk 17:28 Likewise, even as it happened in the days of Lot: they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
Luk 17:29 but in the day that Lot went out from Sodom, it rained fire and sulfur from the sky, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 It will be the same way in the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
Luk 17:31 In that day, he who will be on the housetop, and his goods in the house, let him not go down to take them away. Let him who is in the field likewise not turn back.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife!
Luk 17:33 Whoever seeks to save his life loses it, but whoever loses his life preserves it.

Now you know what happened to Lots wife. She became a pillar of salt for disobeying God's commands. Everything comes down to obedience. Obedience is really the deciding factor of judgement. And those that are called have been warned:

Mat 5:13 “You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt has lost its flavor, with what will it be salted? It is then good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men.

Mar 9:47 If your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out. It is better for you to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire,
Mar 9:48 'where their worm doesn't die, and the fire is not quenched.'
Mar 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt.

Gehenna from some of my studies was a place that also was an example of this fire represented as the second death. The fire was unquenchable but if it burned up all its fuel it would go out. It was a place where all the trash was taken and burned and at those times there was no major fire departments and mobile water systems sufficient to quench the fire. As long as it had fuel it burned.

Mal 4:3 You shall tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make,” says Yahweh of Armies.

Mar 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

The verse above is basically what it will be like after the wicked are consumed.

God is a merciful God and I have found no purpose written or fortold that can make me understand a place of eternal punishment of souls in a firey hell.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Nothing about eternal life in hell in that verse but rather the opposite – the gift of eternal life is for the righteous.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Make no mistake – Obedience is key to salvation. That obedience REQUIRES the labor for others.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Those verses are verses that one wishes not to lead with but if they achieve their purpose in the follow then everything is accomplished.

Cubes if you can understand what I'm preaching here – then you will have received a rare message indeed. You can find parts and pieces on the internet and elsewhere all mixed with another blend of the devils doctrines in order to dillute the offer of salvation. Keep doing what you have been. I feel the zeal coming from you. You need to keep it up and be convicted in what you believe. Check all things. Let the Word of God be your filter. Its my hope that God is working this in you.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Hi trettep,
You rely on a lot of conjecture in your labour. Then you teach it as if it had all the scriptural proofs required.

You guess Peter had a sudden return of memory.
You guess he told the other apostles.
You guess they all stopped doing water baptisms.
You imagine all baptisms that fit your labour should be read Spirit baptisms.

It is all vain conjecture unsupported by anything except your own imagination.

There is no evidence for these conjectures.

We rely on the evidence that God has given us in the Word. That is the safer path for others to follow.

[trettep]

Its not me that is finding the word “water” in every word “baptism”. I find in every word “baptism” the word “immersed”.

I read in Acts:

Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Strongs has that word at 3415:

G3415
μνάομαι
mnaomai
mnah'-om-ahee
Middle voice of a derivative of G3306 or perhaps of the base of G3145 (through the idea of fixture in the mind or of mental grasp); to bear in mind, that is, recollect; by implication to reward or punish: – be mindful, remember, come (have) in remembrance. Compare G3403.

Thayers has it as:

G3415
μνάομαι
mnaomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to remind
1a) to be recalled or to return to one’s mind, to remind one’s self of, to remember
1b) to be recalled to mind, to be remembered, had in remembrance
1c) to remember a thing
1d) be mindful of
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: (through the idea of fixture in the mind or of mental grasp)

I don't guess that he told the other Apostles – the Word of God is clear on this:

Act 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

Act 11:4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,

Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Read the whole chapter and start with chapter 10 and finish with 11. It seems pretty clear that a good number of the Apostles were told this. It was also a Pentacost type of event and I believe the news would have spread rapidly. We don't know for sure how many or which Apostles were all present (although it may be possible to find out by the locations). However, I don't find any dispute of the doctrine following to this point.

We are to worship in the Spirit:

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Now I give you the evidence. With surety I have given it before here. I have quoted the scriptures.

Yet some like Cubes have taken a wiser attempt of rebuke while thoroughly explaining her conflict. Her attempts are more like the Bereans:

Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

So I ask – did Peter remember?
So I ask – did he tell other Apostles?
Can you prove water baptisms after Acts 11?
Is God to be worshiped in the Spirit?

I have given the evidence – and yet its considered conjecture. And why is the message attacked? – is it because its different? – not mainstream? Was Christ message mainstream? Is it because it comes from me?

I post these comments for Cubes as I don't debate but I labor that the Truth is heard. Some are blinded to the Truth yet I can't read their hearts so even for them the Truth is preached that it might bear a testimony.

I have understood and been in the doctrines of the foundation of the laying of hands, and baptisms. I have come from that knowledge to here. But who has been where I am and gone back to the doctrines of the laying on of hands and baptisms.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Trettep,
You misunderstand,
You are right in that Pater “remembered ” what John had said about Jesus. That is not difficult as it is written for all to see in Mt 3.11, Lk 3.16 and Jn 1.26.

Lk 3. 16f
” As you me I baptise with water, but one is coming who is mightier than I, and I and not fit to untie the thong of his sandals. He will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire”

But what you teach is that this “memory” was of a redirection of the assembly of God. You say this means Jesus does not want water baptism, though he was with his disciples when they baptised in the Jordan. You say it means that from now on there is only one baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You read into the words of John that it is one baptism or the other and it does not say that.

You are reading into scripture what is not written in the verses spoken by John.
You are also reading into scripture what is not spoken by Peter.
You are reading into scripture what is not said about Peter teaching the disciples.
You are ADDING TO THE WORD OF GOD . You add your speculations and assumptions making them equal to scripture as TRUTH.

Besides look again at the verse from Luke. There are two baptisms mentioned there and not one. If you are at liberty to say there is now only one baptism for believers [when this verse says there are at least two]then please explain why it could not be “fire”?

We do not have the liberty you assume. You play fast and loose with the Word of God to your own risk.

[trettep]

I know that many want me to understand their view that water baptism is a requirement but I have already believed that and use to persuade others of that. But those attempt to persuade me I assure those its in vain. And when I try to teach them my view – they become an adversary and attack me and my understanding because it doesn't match there own.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Hi trettep,
You are still welcome to share your views and insights here.

But you are not invited to use this forum to teach what does not line up with revelation in scripture.

You appear to be relying on personal spiritual revelation ahead of revealed scriptural truth.

This is not a personal rejection but has only to do with teaching doctrine that is false.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2005,23:54)

Hi trettep, You are still welcome to share your views and insights here. But you are not invited to use this forum to teach what does not line up with revelation in scripture. You appear to be relying on personal spiritual revelation ahead of revealed scriptural truth. This is not a personal rejection but has only to do with teaching doctrine that is false.

Anyone that wants to contact me can at [email protected].

Paul

[Proclaimer]

Ephesians 1:13-14
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

I saw this verse today on the front page of Heaven Net. Thought I would quote it in this discussion. The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our salvation and later on we actually aquire an inheritance. So this says 2 things to me at least:

That we can know that we are saved now, we have a guarantee.

That we will aquire our inheritance after the guarantee.

But how good is a guarantee? I think it is good so long as you do not break the guarantee. E.g., I can have a guarantee for a computer, but the guarantee could say that it is nullified if I open it up. In that case the guarantee is no longer.

Scripture talks about the possibility of having our name removed from the Book of Life which is obviously a loss of the guarantee. I do not agree with the saying “once saved always saved”. I think it is better to say that we are saved so long as we have God's guarantee which is his Spirit. We only need to remain in God to have his Spirit. But if we reject God or engage in sin(s) that leads to death, with no repentence, then will not God remove his Spirit from us?

John writes that we will know that we are sons of God because of our love for one another. This is how we know that we have the Spirit of God.

John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
Of course we are meant to let the Spirit control our lives[gal 5.16,23] The anointing we receive does not lead us to sin [1jn 3.6]but to produce good fruit.[gal 5.16f]. We still sin 1Jn1 .7-10] but we have an advocate [1jn 2.1f]who pleads our case for us with the Father. Not every sin leads to death[1 jn 5.16f] and the only one we know that does is blasphemy against the Spirit[Lk 12.10].

We are branches on the vine. The grapegrower chooses and lays down branches or canes to produce fruit. It is most unusual for those branches to not do so but there is a condition called “dead arm” when a fungus disease kills the branch.

When the new shoots appear some are very vigorous but produce only leaves and no fruit. These are called “water shoots” and are broken off. The sap in the vine is very powerful and has more influence than the branch itself to produce fruit.

Likewise the Spirit is powerful in us to teach us to walk in the light and be cleansed from sin being perfected for the Father.

[bic]

Jesus used several examples of trees which did not produce fruit. If a tree is fruitless, it is worthless. It is to be cut down and thrown in the fire. It is the fruit that we bear that makes us worthy of harvest.

The question is whether or not God will withdraw the Holy Spirit (or perhaps it is REPULSED) once it has been given. Scripture seems to suggest this (through several verses) and David seemed to think so. I tend to believe that “it ain't over until it's over”. As long as you have a breath to draw, you can CHANGE the road you're own, for better or for worse.

[Proclaimer]

Yes that is what I think too. We have a guarantee (the Holy Spirit) but a guarantee can be broken if we choose that.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Mk 16.15f
” Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
He who believes and is baptised will be saved.;but he who has disbelieved will be condemned.
And these are the signs that will follow those who have believed; in my name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents , and if they drink any deadly poisonm, it shall not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover”

This it a vital scripture as it tells us many things.

Those who hear the gospel are judged by their reaction to it.
Those who believe and are baptised in repentance will be saved.
The Spirit is not specifically mentioned but the evidence given of belief is that of the work of the Spirit.
This suggests that it includes baptism in water and in the Spirit.
The salvation of God produces not just knowledge but power to continue the work of Christ.
These are signs mentioned too we should each be showing of that salvation in the Power of the Spirit.

[NickHassan]

ps
But are signs, which we may ascribe to the Spirit, themselves proof of salvation?No.

Mt 7.22
“Many will say to me on that day 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles?'
And then I will declare to them
'I never knew you;depart from me you who prctice lawlessness”

That is why three witnesses are written in 1Jn 5.6-8

[Anonymous]

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/jewish_marriage_customs.htm

[Author]

Posts