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Hi,
Joel 2 describes the attack on Jerusalem associated with the signs in the heavens[1-18],followed by the rescue by the King on his return[18-20]. The latter rains, where the Spirit is poured out on all men [28-29]only occur after this at the restoration. Again verses 30-32 reinforce that the heavenly signs occur prior to the return of Jesus.Nick,
The prophecy concerning the pouring out of the Spirit in Joel has happened and confirmed in Acts on the Day of Pentacost.
Paul
Hi Paul,
Peter quoted Joel 2 as scriptural evidence of the promised gift of the Spirit that was being poured out at that time. He was not saying this is the fulfillment of that promise but showing the type as revealed in scripture.
He said
” but this is WHAT was spoken of through the prophet Joel”It was the Early rain and not the Latter rain I am sure you would agree?
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:Nick, I see that above as saying exactly what it says.
Paul
Hi,
So do I Paul and I do not see the word “fulfillment”.This indeed is what Joel spoke of but not the complete fulfillment of the prophecy because if you read the original context the signs in the heavens have yet to occur. Is that true?Paul,
Certainly it has happened in type. The Spirit has been poured out abundantly. The Spirit has always been available to all God's children who ask.
The inner fountain of Jn 4 and 7 for individuals has always been able to supply water.But RAIN affects all who are in the open.
“God sends his rain on the good and the wicked alike”.
Joel describes rain poured out “on all mankind” It is applied externally not received internally
But I have yet to see the changes in the Sun and moon that precede this outpouring of latter rain but please tell us more.
Hi Trettep, you wrote in the Questions re. HS thread:
“'Exo 30:21 So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute forever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.'
That had nothing to do with the Water Baptism because those who are having their feet cleaned were already clean and only had need of their feet to be cleaned. Let me give you a bit more clues about this though. Remember that there are examples to guide us. We shouldn't need to interpret even though we can spiritual discern things when we are revealed more insight into the workings of the Spirit. But let this be a guide:”
Thanks for the scripture, and I agree that they were already clean and that the feet washing does not replace water baptism. Also, they washed their own feet in the Levitical order, whereas it was Christ who washed the disciples' feet in John 13.
From another post on that same page, you said,
“Also, contrary to what others have said I full heartedly believe one must have works to enter heaven.
Faith without works is dead. There are two types of works in the Bible. The works of the Letter of the Law and the works of Faith. The works of Faith are the Spirit of the Law. Its through those works that one will be saved.”
I agree.
“Let this be a guide – once we have the Holy Spirit we are to worship in the Spirit – flesh shouldn't be required to worship in the Spirit that includes the need for your physical body to be submerged into physical water. Your flesh has no need in the Kingdom of God. Its the pure water that is needed to cleanse your consience.”
My Response:
Flesh must be brought into subjection to Christ, right?
And worship in truth and spirit still requires attitudes of the heart as well as activities that are seen and measurable.
So why can't water baptism be considered part of that acceptable work/fruit, particularly seeing that Jesus and all his disciples were baptized and baptized others?***when the Holy spirit gets ready to baptize, he simply does it so Christ would have no reason to command his disciples to baptize, if the baptism was meant to be exclusively that of the Holy Spirit's.
Editing: Oops, I messed up the quotation function. I'll do it the old fashioned way.
Hi cubes,
You are right about the washing of the feet. It is a symbol of ongoing daily forgiveness for those who have been fully washed. Water baptism brings God's forgiveness but we get our feet dirty on the dusty roads of the world.
It was traditional for visitors to be given water for foot washing when entering another's house as Jesus pointed out to Simon the Pharisee. Jesus insisted that Peter allow him to wash his feet. Jesus advocates for us after our salvation, we pray daily for forgiveness for ourselves and we have to offer it too 'seventy times seven' to our brothers when they err against us.
Love forgives. Love does not keep a record of wrongs. Love one another as I have loved you.Hi trettep,
Your gospel requires special glasses to be read. This is what you see through them.
All baptism in the Word is Spirit baptism.
All references to water in this regard is the pure water of the Spirit.So this is how you will read certain verses.
Jn 3.5
” truly truly I say unto you, unless one is born
of the Spirit and the Spirit
he cannot enter the kingdom of God”
1Jn 5.7
” For there are three that testify
the Spirit, and the Spirit and the blood”Cubes, the washing is not about forgiveness either. Those men were fogiven of their sins in their Faith. The washing is about acceptance and of being the representatives to preach the Gospel.
Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Those that don't accept them don't wash their feet. Mary accepted Christ when she washed His.
The Gospel is about acceptance not exclusion.
Paul
Hi,
Acts 22.16
” And now why do you delay? Arise, be baptised and wash away your sins, calling on his name”
Compare with Acts 9.18 and you will see he received the Spirit prior to this water baptism-which is for the forgiveness of sins.Hi Trett & Nick:
Acceptance and forgiveness can go hand in hand.
Also this forgiveness/acceptance is more b/n brother to brother…not so much b/n God and man.
I don't see the connection as much with the preaching of the gospel but perhaps in time.
Yes cubes but the ground rules are laid by God and not by man for himself.
Jn 1.12
” But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name, who were not born of flesh, nor the will of man, but of God”
Rom 10.3
” For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God”Quote (Cubes @ April 15 2005,03:02) Hi Trett & Nick: Acceptance and forgiveness can go hand in hand.
Also this forgiveness/acceptance is more b/n brother to brother…not so much b/n God and man.
I don't see the connection as much with the preaching of the gospel but perhaps in time.
Actually, I can see where the acceptance and forgivenesss could go hand in hand – good point.I assume these verses wont make sense to ya if you don't understand the reason for the Gospel being part of it:
Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Luk 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
Act 13:51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.
Paul
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2005,03:08) Yes cubes but the ground rules are laid by God and not by man for himself.
Jn 1.12
” But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name, who were not born of flesh, nor the will of man, but of God”
Rom 10.3
” For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God”
Nick: TrueTrett: I still don't grasp the connection with regards to accepting the preachers of the gospel, although the scriptures you cite are true enough.
But as relates to feet washing, I don't get, and here's why:
Jesus was their Lord and Master, and he being greater, did it for them. They were also already in relationship.
In contrast:
a) The foot washing is what WE do for others that are in the faith. It was not done with unbelievers.
b) Not the unbeliever washing the preacher's feet.
c) Also it could be argued that the greater should initiate this for the lesser in faith…though we are to do it for one another so this it is not exclusively greater or lesser.
Also Jesus didn't exactly say it should be for offenses. But as an ongoing gift and debt of acceptance and forgiveness I can see that.
“Owe no man nothing but love.” Romans somewhere.
I had two cents so I thought I'd throw it in.
Hebrews 11:6 – But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
1 John 3:7 – Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Hi trettep,
From a post on “Q about the Holy Spirit” you make the point that the work of the Holy Spirit is renewing of the Mind so that we have the mind of Christ. I would agree that we must be tranformed by the renewing of the mind and that this is a work of the Spirit of Christ. But is it the only work an instant or quick change?-no it is only as we feed on the Word and are teachable that this work is done. It requires our cooperation with the Spirit that teaches us from the words of Christ, if we are teachable.You also say, and correct me if I am wrong, that to be born again of the Spirit requires trust in Christ and an understanding of what the Holy Spirit is about. You say knowledge is the key to this event and given that knowledge you become born again of the Spirit.
There is a conflict here. If the work of the Spirit is to transform the mind how can it be that we need understanding through the work of the mind before we can begin the process of receiving the Spirit? Where is the evidence that Cornelius and his friends were educated about the Spirit before they received it?
This teaching also favours certain groups. It favours the intelligent. It favours those with access to education. I say the opposite is true. The true gospel is for mere children. It is for the poor and ignorant who know more about faith that the so called intelligentsia. [1Cor 1. 18-31]God does not have favourites or favour the clever or the wise greeks, who usually get tripped up by their untransformed minds and miss the message entirely. Man loves to think he is in control with his knowledge and understanding but the Spirit is as the wind and blows where it will.
Where are the schools for understanding the Spirit in Acts which would be vital in your view? Instead the Spirit was given and was manifested in power in those who had obeyed God's demand that they “repent, believe and be baptised in the name of Jesus” and had hands laid on them. God just requires a cleansed vessel.
You are sadly mistaken trettep.
Luke 18:16 – But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
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