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Hi cubes,
This is critical information. It is life and death spiritually.Those that teach it is unnecessary to go through the gate are at risk of the warning given to the pharisees. They do not enter the kingdom themselves and they slam the door in the faces of those who follow them.That is why we do not encourage anyone to teach strange new doctrines that are not plainly revealed in scripture. We are responsible for those that hear our message.
Sorry Paul but you have continued teaching these things despite being shown their inadequacy and weaknesses and that is why we have had to speak plainly.
Nick, I don't expect everyone to believe and know that God has blinded many to the Truth. But my job is to labor and this is what the members of the Church are judged on is their labor and works. You can read about that in Revelation chapters 2 and 3. You right the understanding of the Holy Spirit is critical to ones salvation. This teaching is not common and will not be – the world is deceived!
Nick, I have been given the Truth and freely give it that those called by God can be guided by the light given to me which is Jesus Christ. Those that believe in that having Faith in Jesus Christ can be born into the Family of God as one of God's Children should pursue that message for it is the Good Message of the coming Kingdom (Family) of God. Its the job of everyone to do as the Bereans did and check all things to see if they are so. Cubes should listen to the Word of God before myself and you and anyone else. The Word of God is the filter for everlasting knowledge.
When Jesus came His doctrine was strange as well to the religous leaders and their deluded followers. Since they didn't except His doctrine – I don't expect the mainstream to expect the same now either.
The Truth is spirtually discerned.
Paul
Quote (trettep @ April 03 2005,23:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2005,22:41) Hi cubes,
Have you read Acts 10 47-48?
That was before Peter remembered. There was many water baptisms before that.Paul
Dear Trett,In context of Acts 10 & 11, I believe that Peter was recounting what happened, including his remembrance of what Jesus said. In other words, he remembered what Jesus said but had them baptised anyway. Thus, IMO, the significance of his remembrance has less or nothing to do with whether or not converts should be baptised. It has all to do with the holy spirit falling on gentiles.
As far as repentence goes (Acts 11:17-18), it goes without saying that the holy spirit seals us and God sends his spirit out to those who repent and receive Jesus, not to unrepentent sinners.
Quote (Cubes @ April 04 2005,00:01) Quote (trettep @ April 03 2005,23:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2005,22:41) Hi cubes,
Have you read Acts 10 47-48?
That was before Peter remembered. There was many water baptisms before that.Paul
Dear Trett,In context of Acts 10 & 11, I believe that Peter was recounting what happened, including his remembrance of what Jesus said. In other words, he remembered what Jesus said but had them baptised anyway. Thus, IMO, the significance of his remembrance has less or nothing to do with whether or not converts should be baptised. It has all to do with the holy spirit falling on gentiles.
As far as repentence goes (Acts 11:17-18), it goes without saying that the holy spirit seals us and God sends his spirit out to those who repent and receive Jesus, not to unrepentent sinners.
I used to think the same. But it appears clear that they new the Gentiles could be baptized. Phillip baptized the Ehiopian if you recall. Also, we must understand that the Holy Spirit is poured out. Interesting term for the Holy Spirit – “poured” out. Just like water is. Also, in Acts 11:18 the interesting part is the fact that the Apostles are recognizing that “repentance” came with that offering of the Holy Spirit which was in type done before with water baptism. I find contradiction with to much scripture in believing that water baptism is still required.Paul
Hi Trettep,
I feel I must say it again, so please bear with me.
Acts 10: We are being told of the account as it unfolds.
Acts 11: Peter is reporting what happened to the Jewish Christians after the fact:Acts 11:2-4 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, saying, thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying…
15) And as I began to speak, the holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16)Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptised with water; but ye shall be baptised with the holy Ghost.
17) Forasmuch then as God gave them THE LIKE GIFT AS HE DID UNTO US, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18)When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, then hath God also to the gentiles granted repentance unto life.Peter said in the KJV translation at least, vs 16, “then remembered I the word of the Lord…” This says to me that he wasn't remembering in Acts 11 at the recounting but in Acts 10. Remember that the Lord had also prepared him gradually about 3 days earlier for this experience.
Since Peter baptised Cornelius in this particular case — which is the bulwark of what you are saying– I think it is wise to give it more thought and seek other scriptural confirmation. You know how these things go. It is for all of our good that we build on a sure foundation.
Modem Mouth and others, what do you think about Acts 10 & 11 as relates to what what we are saying, given that Peter baptised Cornelius in 10:47-48?
Quote (trettep @ April 04 2005,00:12) I used to think the same. But it appears clear that they new the Gentiles could be baptized. Phillip baptized the Ehiopian if you recall. Also, we must understand that the Holy Spirit is poured out. Interesting term for the Holy Spirit – “poured” out. Just like water is. Also, in Acts 11:18 the interesting part is the fact that the Apostles are recognizing that “repentance” came with that offering of the Holy Spirit which was in type done before with water baptism. I find contradiction with to much scripture in believing that water baptism is still required. Paul
Yes, they knew gentiles could be water baptized. I don't doubt that and the Ethiopian is an acceptable example. But the holy spirit didn't fall on the Ethiopian at that time to our knowledge.Gentiles could be water baptized, yes, but had not experienced the falling of the holy spirit upon them historically. So, that is the context I believe, of Cornelius' and Peter's story: a convergence of Jew & gentile, the wall of separation b/n the two being torn down as Paul teaches.
Acts 2:4-8: And they were all filled with the holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem JEWS, devout men, OUT OF EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, behold, are not all these which speak Gallilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Quote (Cubes @ April 04 2005,01:07) Quote (trettep @ April 04 2005,00:12) I used to think the same. But it appears clear that they new the Gentiles could be baptized. Phillip baptized the Ehiopian if you recall. Also, we must understand that the Holy Spirit is poured out. Interesting term for the Holy Spirit – “poured” out. Just like water is. Also, in Acts 11:18 the interesting part is the fact that the Apostles are recognizing that “repentance” came with that offering of the Holy Spirit which was in type done before with water baptism. I find contradiction with to much scripture in believing that water baptism is still required. Paul
Yes, they knew gentiles could be water baptized. I don't doubt that and the Ethiopian is an acceptable example. But the holy spirit didn't fall on the Ethiopian at that time to our knowledge.Gentiles could be water baptized, yes, but had not experienced the falling of the holy spirit upon them historically. So, that is the context I believe, of Cornelius' and Peter's story: a convergence of Jew & gentile, the wall of separation b/n the two being torn down as Paul teaches.
Acts 2:4-8: And they were all filled with the holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem JEWS, devout men, OUT OF EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, behold, are not all these which speak Gallilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Now read further. Who is the audience. Are they ALL Jews? Are they Gentiles? If you think the message in Acts 11:16 is for Gentiles then this my perplex you because during the Pentacost if you read further you will see this:Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Ask yourself – who were they those baptized in Acts 2:41?
The message was not about the Gentiles. It was about the fact that repentance was also given confirming that the Holy Spirit came with all the conversion. Its one baptism!
Paul
Hi tt and cubes,
Acts 11.18
“…they glorified God ,saying
'Well then God has granted to the gentiles also the REPENTANCE THAT LEADS TO LIFE”
Acts 3.19″ Repent therefore and return that your sins may be wiped away..”
Acts 26.20″ ..that they should repent and turn to God..”Of course repentance is the first step along the road to salvation. There has to be repentance before forgiveness surely. Even repentance is not of us but is a gift scripture tells us in Acts 11. The next step is to be baptised in the Name of Jesus Christ. No where does it say baptism in the Holy Spirit is done in the Name of Jesus Christ.But water baptism is.
Acts 2.38″ Repent ,and let each of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;AND you shall receive the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT”Hi tt,
cubes is right. Acts 11 was a watershed for Peter. He took a lot of convincing that the message was now to be taken to the gentiles as well. So it would seem that the 3000 added in Acts 2.41 were Jews from all the evidence available.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2005,04:30) Hi tt,
cubes is right. Acts 11 was a watershed for Peter. He took a lot of convincing that the message was now to be taken to the gentiles as well. So it would seem that the 3000 added in Acts 2.41 were Jews from all the evidence available.
No Nick they were not all Jews in the sense that they were from the tribe of Judah. Some were obviously but not all of them.Notice where some were born elsewhere:
Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
And there is even the distinction made that some of these were converts to Judaism:
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
So you can see that the ramifications of Acts 11:18 become much more significant. I said before, I find to much contradiction in the physical water baptism being a part of the New Testament.
Paul
Quote (trettep @ April 04 2005,01:54) Now read further. Who is the audience. Are they ALL Jews? Are they Gentiles? If you think the message in Acts 11:16 is for Gentiles then this my perplex you because during the Pentacost if you read further you will see this: Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Ask yourself – who were they those baptized in Acts 2:41?
The message was not about the Gentiles. It was about the fact that repentance was also given confirming that the Holy Spirit came with all the conversion. Its one baptism!
Paul
Hi Trett,My reading of Acts 2 yesterday revealed that those 3,000 were primarily Jews and converts to Judaism. (Acts 2:5-12).
- Acts 2:14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalm, let me explain this to you. Listen carefully to what I say.
- Acts2:22Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was hand over to you by God's set purpose and fore knowledge;and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
- Acts 2:29>Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.
- Acts 2:36-38Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, [/B]“Brothers, what shall we do?” Peter replied, “repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will Call.”
- Acts 2:41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.”
Trettep, Notice that it says they went on to devote themselves to the apostles teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Meanwhile, Acts 10 tells us that Peter up until then, had NOT had fellowship with gentiles being very Jewish in a devout sense of the word. This leads me to believe that the 3,000 were Jews and converts to Judaism.
Acts 10:27-29: Talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. He said to them: “you are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection…
- Acts 10:45: The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy 'spirit had been poured out EVEN on the Gentiles.
- Acts 2:48: So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
And finally, don't miss Acts 10:17:
So if God gave THEM the same gift as he gave US, WHO BELIEVED IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, who was I to think that I could oppose God?”
My conclusion: The apostles and other Jews believed, were baptized and given the gift of the holy spirit as a sign of their acceptance in the beloved. In Acts 10, the same thing happened but this time to the gentiles. It was so important an event that Seven Jewish Witnesses were required (including Peter), in addition to a gentile congregation. Also, after the fact, Paul was notified and everybody was on the same page as to what God was doing.
Peter remembered, because I believe that up until that time, the holy spirit falling also on gentiles was a mental awareness and something he knew was suppose to happen but only in theory, as Acts 2:39 will seem to suggest. Until it happened then he knew, and he said as much.
edited parameters of font color.
Nick and Cubes:
Were your baptized with physical water?
If so, the person that baptized you obtained the authority from whom? and how do you know?
Paul
Additionally, if water baptism represents the renewing of one then wouldn't the renewed person have a renewed mind? Also, since all things happen through the power of the Holy Spirit wouldn't it be required of the baptizer to have the Holy Spirit so that the “renewing” can be accomplished? After all isn't it the Holy Spirit that performs that act.
Paul
Quote (trettep @ April 04 2005,15:39) Nick and Cubes: Were your baptized with physical water?
If so, the person that baptized you obtained the authority from whom? and how do you know?
Paul
I was baptized with H2O (water) into the death and resurrection of Christ. This happened many years after my actual conversion experience (the time when I believe the holy spirit fell upon me—though I didn't speak in tongues but I had a definite renewal of mind and mega desire to repent, which I have). Something that did not go unnoticed by my family at large and is an ongoing experience as you know.Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
I don't in any way discount the adoption and baptism of the holy spirit, for without it, we are not the children of God. But those whose examples I follow did not choose b/n one or the other so I do not either. I only know what is revealed.
To answer the rest of your question:
The chain may have been broken. But coming to think of it, the bible does not teach chain theory and makes no claim to it. We assume that there is one because believers are commanded to baptize converts. But when you think about it, it was God who looked upon the hearts of the Ethiopian Eunuch and Cornelius, thereby providing a means of salvation for them which included baptism of water both cases (and of the spirit in Acts 10 for the reasons mentioned earlier). Thus, by faith, I know that God looks upon the heart and forgives those who fear and seek after him through Jesus.
Since God is able to look directly on each person's heart, the baptiser with water may not be as important in the process as is the heart of the believer being baptized. The work is of God who is able to raise stones to praise him and use donkeys to prophesy as need be.
And remember, once saved, not always saved necessarily so our faith is not in the person who performs the water baptism, but in God:1 Cor 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
God also said somewhere that he will not punish a righteous son with the sins of his father or vice versa. Thus, If I fear God and have received the message of the gospel that leads to salvation, and given myself to Jesus, shall I become nullified because the person who water baptized me was unrepentent or unsaved? It is the gospel we are called to believe, not the preacher thereof. We could safely suppose that Judas Iscariot also baptized along with the others. What happens to his guys if your theory is correct? Should the innocent be destroyed with the wicked? Certainly not.
Thus, I doubt we have to have a chain of water baptizers (Who baptized John)? The true gospel is what is needed that we might have faith in the real savior of the world, Jesus Christ and be baptized into him, confirmed and sealed by the holy Spirit of God.
Very well Cubes. BTW John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit from birth. According to my belief he had to have. I believe one has to have the Holy Spirit to baptize another. Plus he would have had to come from one in the priestly office – of which was John the Baptist as he was a Levite and son of Zechariah. Plus his ministry had to go away since it was a former type. Thats because I believe there was an unbroken chain.
You make my labor hard.
The latter rain has come. The first month is long past.
Paul
Quote (trettep @ April 04 2005,18:08) Very well Cubes. BTW John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit from birth. According to my belief he had to have. I believe one has to have the Holy Spirit to baptize another. Plus he would have had to come from one in the priestly office – of which was John the Baptist as he was a Levite and son of Zechariah. Plus his ministry had to go away since it was a former type. Thats because I believe there was an unbroken chain. You make my labor hard.
The latter rain has come. The first month is long past.
Paul
You are right on all counts with regards to John. He had the holy spirit from the womb. Shouldn't that also indicate that God can directly authorize someone to baptize though the chain may have been broken?I am sorry. My aim is not to frustrate you at all. I am confident that the Lord's word shall stand.
God bless and I look forward to more of what you have to share.
Quote (trettep @ April 04 2005,15:42) Additionally, if water baptism represents the renewing of one then wouldn't the renewed person have a renewed mind? Also, since all things happen through the power of the Holy Spirit wouldn't it be required of the baptizer to have the Holy Spirit so that the “renewing” can be accomplished? After all isn't it the Holy Spirit that performs that act. Paul
Hi trettep,
I was baptised in water by a water baptised Spirit filled believer. Since God promises the Spirit to all His children who ask then it is plain that a human instrument is not even required necessarily.Water baptism does not represent the renewing of the Mind. It represents forgiveness and cleansing of the cup so it is fit to receive what is holy and so that we are able to approach the Father in prayer without danger.
The work of inner renewal is the work of the Spirit of Christ. The work is God's just as the growth of a seed into a plant is God's work. We must do what God commands and leave the results to God.
All I know is that those who did not submit to God's plan did not succeed in their endeavours. Naaman only received healing when he went through the water. Noah was only saved by the water [1Peter 3]The Pharisees who did not submit to John's baptism also frustrated God's plan for them too.[Lk 7.30]
We cannot design our own salvation according to the imaginations of our mind but we must obey the plan of God whoever foolish it may appear. Neither is it helpful to sow doubt where there is faith.
Rom 10.1f
” Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For not knowing God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject them selves to the righteousness of God”
Quote (trettep @ April 04 2005,15:05) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2005,04:30) Hi tt,
cubes is right. Acts 11 was a watershed for Peter. He took a lot of convincing that the message was now to be taken to the gentiles as well. So it would seem that the 3000 added in Acts 2.41 were Jews from all the evidence available.
No Nick they were not all Jews in the sense that they were from the tribe of Judah. Some were obviously but not all of them.Notice where some were born elsewhere:
Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
And there is even the distinction made that some of these were converts to Judaism:
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
So you can see that the ramifications of Acts 11:18 become much more significant. I said before, I find to much contradiction in the physical water baptism being a part of the New Testament.
Paul
Hi,
So it seems to be a matter of semantics in some ways.I refer to Jews and you say they are only from the tribe of Judah. If I called them Israelites no doubt that would not suffice either? Where they are born does not make them gentiles surely? They were faithful people of the covenant of circumcision [and surely all proselytes would first be circumcised] in Jerusalem for the Passover?
How does that muddy the water? In what way is there confusion in the simple message of Christ?
Quote (trettep @ April 04 2005,18:08) Very well Cubes. BTW John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit from birth. According to my belief he had to have. I believe one has to have the Holy Spirit to baptize another. Plus he would have had to come from one in the priestly office – of which was John the Baptist as he was a Levite and son of Zechariah. Plus his ministry had to go away since it was a former type. Thats because I believe there was an unbroken chain. You make my labor hard.
The latter rain has come. The first month is long past.
Paul
Hi,
The water baptism of John's was only one of repentance. He was the one sent to prepare the way for the gospel of Christ. Nowhere does it suggest it was for any other purpose but repentance and receiving forgiveness and openness to that gospel.Lk 3 3
” and he came into all the districts around the Jordan, preaching a baptism for the forgiveness of sins”He said to the multitudes in Lk 3.7-note not just to the Pharisees and teachers of the Law.
” You brood of vipers. Who told you to flee from the wrath to come?”
It was highly effective and ploughed the land for the new seed. It was part of God's plan, specifically for the Israelites, for the rescue of all from the wrath to come. But it was of the old order for the Jews only, and ceased with the death of John. Gentiles did not partake of this baptism.
Baptism in the name of Jesus,though, is for Jew and gentile.
It has two purposes. It too is a baptism of repentance and forgiveness as the gentiles need the washing as well.
And it baptises us into the Body of Christ making one assembly from two.They are united in this one baptism.
That is what scripture says.
The baptism in the Spirit is also necessary but it is usual to follow water baptism.
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