God's plan of salvation as revealed in Scripture

[trettep]

Yes I believe in that sign of the Old Covenant. I still maintain that the Holy Spirit IS the Water baptism of the pure water. The water baptism was a type of this baptism. Otherwise, if the water baptisms truely represented these things then they would have been performed before the new Sign was in effect. Therefore, even more so is the Holy Spirit that baptism.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Hi Paul,
Again I ask. What does Jesus mean when he says
“YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN OF WATER
AND
THE SPIRIT”?

John 1 12
” But as many  as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name, who were born, not of blood, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God”

If being “willing” to be born of God was sufficient for salvation then surely this scripture would not have been written?

Jesus says frequently we must come to HIM to be saved, not to the thought or even the Word of God. We all must go through the gate and he is the gate. We go through that gate when we are baptised into him.

[trettep]

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Consider the word water there. Can you name anyone that Jesus baptized with physical water himself? And if not – why not? After all Jesus was setting an example.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Paul,
You have avoided my question again.

Of course Jesus also said to the apostles in Jn 12.10with regard to the symbolism of forgiveness received through baptism.

” He who has BATHED needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean;and you are clean.”

“Eph 5.24f
” Husbands love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her;that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her BY THE WASHING OF WATER with the word”

It does not say the word does the washing does it? If it did mean that the word WATER would be surplus to requirements.

[NickHassan]

Hi Paul,
Jn 3.22
” And after these things Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judea;and there he was spending toime with them, AND BAPTISING. And John als was baptising inAenon near Salim, because there was much WATER there;and they were coming ,and were being baptised.
For John had not yet been thrown into prison.
There arose therefore a discussion on the part of John's disciples with a jew about purification. And they came to John and said to him
'Rabbi. He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have borne witness,behold, HE IS BAPTISING, and all are coming to him”

Another scripture says his disciples were actually doing the baptising but they were surely acting in his name.Of course it too had to be a baptism of repentance as the new baptism in water into Jesus body could only happen after the death of Jesus.Do you agree?

[Anonymous]

Nick,
You were asked by trettep to “show me where it says that God requires a sign?”

Where is the scripture?

[NickHassan]

Hi MM,
You will probably find that those exact words do not appear in scripture.
However 1Jn 5.8 deserves a closer look.

[Anonymous]

Hmmm

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2005,03:47)

Paul, You have avoided my question again. Of course Jesus also said to the apostles in Jn 12.10with regard to the symbolism of forgiveness received through baptism. ” He who has BATHED needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean;and you are clean.” “Eph 5.24f ” Husbands love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her;that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her BY THE WASHING OF WATER with the word” It does not say the word does the washing does it? If it did mean that the word WATER would be surplus to requirements.

Nick, I haven't avoided your question. I thought I had answered it. The Holy Spirit IS Water. Its the pure water. This requires Faith to believe. But it is the Holy Spirit that washes. John's water baptism is of the old covenant type of this washing.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Many people know that the physical water baptism represented this regeneration and renewing. That when one comes out of the water they are a new creature. That water baptism was a former example of what the comforter does now.

Its the Holy Spirit that makes one a new creature. After all, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God. Any born again person must have the Holy Spirit to be considered born again.

Paul

[Cubes]

I'd like to add this obvious fact that it is not the act of water baptism that saves a sinner. It is the faith we have in Jesus that leads us to repentence and salvation and the subsequent baptisms of water and spirit. Anyone can jump into a body of water and come out but that wouldn't save them. And without believing in Christ, one cannot have the spirit of Christ.

“Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: “

And what of this? Would you say John was a little like Jonah here?

And how different is that from our “Seeker-friendly” churches where the gospel is adulterated to suit the seeker?

Luk 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ Mar. 31 2005,13:26)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2005,03:47) Paul, You have avoided my question again. Of course Jesus also said to the apostles in Jn 12.10with regard to the symbolism of forgiveness received through baptism. ” He who has BATHED needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean;and you are clean.” “Eph 5.24f ” Husbands love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her;that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her BY THE WASHING OF WATER with the word” It does not say the word does the washing does it? If it did mean that the word WATER would be surplus to requirements. Nick, I haven't avoided your question.  I thought I had answered it.  The Holy Spirit IS Water.  Its the pure water.  This requires Faith to believe.  But it is the Holy Spirit that washes.  John's water baptism is of the old covenant type of this washing. Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Many people know that the physical water baptism represented this regeneration and renewing.  That when one comes out of the water they are a new creature.  That water baptism was a former example of what the comforter does now. Its the Holy Spirit that makes one a new creature.  After all, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God.  Any born again person must have the Holy Spirit to be considered born again. Paul

Paul,
Scripture is very efficient and does not repeat itself without reason. Only those of the time of Christ were baptised in the baptism of John yet Jesus said in John 3 that we must be born again of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom. That applies to all people till he returns.

Scripture says it is our bodies that are washed in pure water. In what way does the spirit wash our bodies? Scripture does not say the Spirit is used to wash us but empower us.

Titus also says”the washing of regeneration, AND renewing of the Holy Ghost” Again, though, according to your logic the second phrase repeats the meaning of the first.

You need to tell us why scripture says “water AND the Spirit” if water MEANS the Spirit to you.

[NickHassan]

I agree cubes,
“the power to become children of God” has deeper meaning too. It is a hope rather than a fact, as belief alone.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2005,18:11)

Quote (trettep @ Mar. 31 2005,13:26) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2005,03:47) Paul, You have avoided my question again. Of course Jesus also said to the apostles in Jn 12.10with regard to the symbolism of forgiveness received through baptism. ” He who has BATHED needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean;and you are clean.” “Eph 5.24f ” Husbands love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her;that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her BY THE WASHING OF WATER with the word” It does not say the word does the washing does it? If it did mean that the word WATER would be surplus to requirements. Nick, I haven't avoided your question.  I thought I had answered it.  The Holy Spirit IS Water.  Its the pure water.  This requires Faith to believe.  But it is the Holy Spirit that washes.  John's water baptism is of the old covenant type of this washing. Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Many people know that the physical water baptism represented this regeneration and renewing.  That when one comes out of the water they are a new creature.  That water baptism was a former example of what the comforter does now. Its the Holy Spirit that makes one a new creature.  After all, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God.  Any born again person must have the Holy Spirit to be considered born again. Paul Paul, Scripture is very efficient and does not repeat itself without reason. Only those of the time of Christ were baptised in the baptism of John yet Jesus said in John 3 that we must be born again of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom. That applies to all people till he returns. Scripture says it is our bodies that are washed in pure water. In what way does the spirit wash our bodies? Scripture does not say the Spirit is used to wash us but empower us. Titus also says”the washing of regeneration, AND renewing of the Holy Ghost” Again, though, according to your logic the second phrase repeats the meaning of the first. You need to tell us why scripture says “water AND the Spirit” if water MEANS the Spirit to you.

Maybe you should be more specific as to what your asking.  As I keep looking and believing that I answered your question.  If you looking for me to convince you – I cannot do that.  

I truely stuggled with this issue for quite some time.  I use to believe that water baptism was required.  But that posed some major problems.  It raised the following question – What qualifications does the person need to have that performs the water baptism?  And if the person just needs to be a believer in order to do the baptizing then how would we know if that person had been baptized by a believer all the way back to the early Church? (unbroken chain theory).

Physical water baptism represents the act of repentance of changing direction to head into a new and be forgiven of sins.  In Acts 11:18 we find a significant revelation given by the Apostles when Peter reports of how the Holy Spirit falls on the Gentiles.  It reads:

Act 11:18  When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

This is significant because not only did the Holy Spirit fall but it was acknowledge by the Apostle that also Repentance was given which is exactly what the act of physical water baptism represents.  Therefore it was here in verse 16-18 of Acts 11 that the communication is made about the fact that Christ's baptism by the Holy Spirit is inclusive of repentance.  The verse I gave earlier in Titus also supports this as well as the “one baptism” and the “pure water” and the fact that Jesus didn't baptise anyone but his disciples did.  Also, the fact that the Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentacost.  I am only finding more relevance and instruction being demonstrated of this event in the Bible as I eat the Flesh of Christ and drink of His blood.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Paul,
Clearly you are very content in your understandings. Your teaching is suspect in my view but you are unwilling to respond to scriptural evidence or enter real dialogue on scriptures presented that challenge that view. I have done my part,I believe, but your path remains your choice so I will not persist on this matter.

[trettep]

Thanks Nick. That is well spoken. I commend you for not debating the issue and understanding my position as well as I do yours.

Paul

[Cubes]

Quote (trettep @ Mar. 31 2005,21:05)

Thanks Nick.  That is well spoken.  I commend you for not debating the issue and understanding my position as well as I do yours. Paul

Hi Trettep,

I read Acts 10 & 11 today and it would appear that Cornelius and his family and neighbors were not necessarily water baptised as you say:

My thoughts are:

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
Have you read Acts 10 47-48?

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2005,22:41)

Hi cubes, Have you read Acts 10 47-48?

That was before Peter remembered. There was many water baptisms before that.

Paul

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2005,22:41)

Hi cubes, Have you read Acts 10 47-48?

Hi Nick,

Thank you. I read Chapter 11 and then decided to read chapter 10 for the actual account (not the recount by Peter), but had to tend to Linear and Mongo and didn't even realize I hadn't finished reading when I returned. That was the critical information I sought from Trett.

Thank you for pointing it out.

Trettep, I believe that this is conclusive. You made a good point worth investigating in absence of Acts 10:47-48, but since Peter had them baptised anyway, you ought to feel confident that water baptism has not been nullified. This answers my question and concludes the matter for me.

[trettep]

Quote (Cubes @ April 03 2005,22:05)

Quote (trettep @ Mar. 31 2005,21:05) Thanks Nick.  That is well spoken.  I commend you for not debating the issue and understanding my position as well as I do yours. Paul Hi Trettep, I read Acts 10 & 11 today and it would appear that Cornelius and his family and neighbors were not necessarily water baptised as you say: My thoughts are: 1.  How do we know that Cornelius wasn't already baptised by John or some one else? What are the Jewish traditions for the devout non-christians? 2.  After Cornelius, do you know if the Apostles baptised anyone else at all?  Paul was made aware of the situation and he didn't attempt to baptise Cornelius…but after that, do we know if the Apostles continued to water baptise others?  Paul himself didn't baptise many people, but he did baptise. Jesus didn't baptise but I believe he watched his disciples baptise. It's another way, I think, to examine the situation.  It may prove or disprove your point.  So far I understand what you are saying, but we need to check all sides.  I will be searching it out too but let's know if you find out the answer first.

Cubes give it a lot of thought. I want you to convict yourself one way or the other but I want you to learn it from the Bible unbiased and letting the Word of God guide you through the facts in the Bible. Remember that the New Covenant didn't start until the crucifiction and the resurrection. Also, try to ask yourself why didn't Christ baptize with water. He washed the disciples feet but never baptized with water. But really he did – it was the pure water – the Holy Spirit.

Paul

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