God is the testator, jesus is the testator

Participant

Quote (david @ Feb. 25 2010,18:29)

The inspired writer of the book of Hebrews discusses two principal covenants, the Law covenant and the new covenant. In this discussion he refers to Christ’s mediating the new covenant. (Heb 9:15) His words at Hebrews 9:16 have been a subject of controversy among Bible scholars. Accordingly, the text has been rendered in the following ways: “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.” (KJ) “For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.” (RS) “For where a covenant is it is necessary for the death to be brought in of him that hath covenanted.” (Ro) “For where there is a covenant, the death of the human covenanter needs to be furnished.” (NW) “For where a covenant is, the death of the covenant-victim to come in is necessary.” (Yg) “For where a Covenant exists, the Death of that which has ratified it is necessary to be produced.” (ED) “For where a covenant is, there is a necessity for the death of that which establisheth the covenant.”—The New Testament in an Improved Version.
The literal rendering as set forth in interlinear translations of the Greek text is as follows: “Where for covenant, death necessity to be borne of the one having made for self covenant.” (Heb 9:16, Int) “For where there is a covenant, the death there is necessity to be offered of the one making covenant.”—The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, translated by Alfred Marshall.
The rendering of di·a·the′ke as “covenant” expresses correctly the writer’s meaning. The renderings “testament” and “will,” found in many versions, are inconsistent with the use of the term in the Greek Septuagint as well as in many places in the Christian Greek Scriptures. (Lu 1:72; Ac 3:25; 7:8; Ro 9:4; 11:27; Heb 8:6-10; 12:24) “Will” and “testament” also are out of harmony with what Paul is talking about, as he is speaking of the Law covenant and the new covenant in the context. Neither the Law covenant nor the new covenant was a “will.”
At Hebrews 9:16 the apostle Paul was evidently speaking of covenants between God and man (not man and man) as requiring sacrifices. And it may be noted that, particularly with the Hebrews, approaches to God and covenants with God were regularly based on sacrifices, the victims sacrificed sometimes being cut in pieces on the occasion of entering a covenant. It is quite obvious that the Law covenant and the new covenant required the shedding of blood in order to go into operation or to be effective before God. Otherwise God would not have recognized them as valid, nor dealt with the persons involved on the basis of a covenant relationship. (Heb 9:17) For the validation of the Law covenant, the sacrifice used was that of animals—bulls and goats—these taking the place of Moses, the mediator. (Heb 9:19) –Insight book.

Hi David,

To put it bluntly your post above is a BIG mess and total confusion.

First, you attempt to create doubt as to the meaning of the text by saying that there is controversy among the scholars. Yet you give no examples of this alleged controversy. You need to show us. Then you offer the various translations as “proof” that its meaning is unclear. But all the translations agree in essence.

Second, you said that the text is “evidently speaking of covenants between God and man (not man and man).” Yet your own New World Translation in verse 17 says “[human] covenanteer.”

“For a covenant is valid over dead [victims], since it is not in force at any time while the [human] covenanteer is living” NWT

So the translators inwhich you trust understood this text to be about a covenant between man and man? Yet you say that the text is “evidently speaking of covenants between God and man (not man and man).”

I agree with you that the text is about a covenant between God and man. What I am saying is that you can't get around the fact that it is also about a covenant between man and man. Your own translation substantiates that it is a man who is the “Covenanteer.” It is a man who made the covenant. The word “death” conclusively speaks to the principle of a man and man covenant!

Yet Hebrews 8 explicitly says that it is God who made the covenant. Your solution seems to be that Israel had two Testators. You deny my Premise one: God ALONE is the Testator (or “covenanteer” if you like).

So it seems that your solution is that Israel had two Covenanteers which were God and Jesus Christ.

But your two Covenanteers principle is out of context with the book of Hebrews for these reasons: Jehovah as you define Him did not make the covenant with Israel. Jehovah as you define Him made an oath to Jesus Christ. Then Jesus Christ made the covenant with Israel.

Jehovah (as you define Him) made an oath to Christ:

20And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath, 21but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
'You are a priest forever.'”

22This makes Jesus the GUARANTOR of a better covenant. Hebrews 7:20-22

There it is! The oath that Jehovah made to Jesus makes Jesus Himself the “GUARANTOR” of the covenant. As the “guarantor” of the covenant He is the Priest and the sacrifice. He is the Mediator and the Testator (or Covenanteer).

Then Jesus Christ made the covenant with Israel:

“But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant HE mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

8For HE finds fault with them when HE says:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God….” Hebrews 8:7-10

Note that it says that “HE” (Jesus) mediates the covenant. Then it says that “HE” (Jesus) finds fault with the first covenant and that “HE” (Jesus) says, “I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel.”

The “HE” who mediates is the “He” who finds fault with the first covenant and is the same “HE” who says, “I will make a new covenant.”

It is Jesus speaking throughout! And “HE” (Jesus) says, “I will be their God.”

Note also that He said that the new covenant will not be as the first covenant that He gave them when He led them out of Egypt.

It was Jesus who led them out of Egypt:

5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 5 ESV

Moses said,

“And when we cried to the LORD, he heard our voice and sent a Messenger and brought us out of Egypt. And here we
are in Kadesh, a city on the edge of your territory.” Numbers 20:16

Jehovah made an oath to Jesus Christ. Then Jesus Christ made the new covenant with Israel. Jesus Christ is the sole Testator (or Covenanteer) of the covenant!

thinker

February 25, 2010 at 6:16 pm#180244

Participant

Hi TT,
The Holy Spirit of Christ[and of God] enlightened and led the prophets.[1Peter1, 1Cor10]
But Jesus, the man, had yet to be born.

God's angelic messengers also have always ministered the words and powers of God.
God uses holy vessels.

February 26, 2010 at 12:53 am#180346

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2010,09:17)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 24 2010,22:16)

Marty

Where does it say that you will be saved by your works? OT or NT?

Georg

Hi Georg:

Neither place. No man will be saved by his works.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

So, how do you figure all the dead, as they are being resurrected, get their name into the book of life? if in fact they were resurrected after the 1000 years?

Georg

February 26, 2010 at 1:14 am#180350

Participant

Hi Georg,
The names in the book of life are written now.[Lk 10.20, Phil4.3]

February 26, 2010 at 1:30 am#180352

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 26 2010,05:07)

It was Jesus who led them out of Egypt:

5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 5 ESV

Hi thinker,

I thought you believed in a trinity of three separate, equal persons. If it was Jehovah, who revealed Himself and His name to Moses at the burning bush, and Jehovah who performed all the signs and wonders to the Egyptians as the Scriptures say, then you must be saying that Jesus is actually Jehovah.

Am I correct in this assumption? And if so, how many persons are in your Godhead?

peace and love
mike

February 26, 2010 at 1:40 am#180357

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2010,12:14)

Hi Georg,
The names in the book of life are written now.[Lk 10.20, Phil4.3]

Nick

For whom?

Georg

February 26, 2010 at 3:44 am#180395

942767

Participant

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 26 2010,11:53)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2010,09:17)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 24 2010,22:16)

Marty

Where does it say that you will be saved by your works? OT or NT?

Georg

Hi Georg:

Neither place. No man will be saved by his works.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

So, how do you figure all the dead, as they are being resurrected, get their name into the book of life? if in fact they were resurrected after the 1000 years?

Georg

Hi Georg:

Every one who was striving to obey God from the beginning of creation until the time when Jesus comes for the church will have had their names written in the book of life.

I say “striving” because although we as well as they were obeying God. We have all made mistakes.

If someone were to be saved by “works”, that would mean that they obeyed God without making any mistakes.

And so, the scriptures state that salvation is by “faith” so that it might be by “grace”, and not of works lest any man should boast.

The blood that Jesus shed will wash away the sins of all that have obeyed God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 26, 2010 at 10:09 am#180439

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2010,12:30)

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 26 2010,05:07)

It was Jesus who led them out of Egypt:

5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 5 ESV

Hi thinker,

Am I correct in this assumption? And if so, how many persons are in your Godhead?

peace and love
mike

Mike,

It was the Messenger of Jehovah who revealed Himself to Moses in the burning bush.

2 And the Messenger of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

It CLEARLY says that it was the Messenger of Jehovah who appeared to Moses. The Messenger who spoke was God (vss. 4,6).

Exodus 23 says that the Messenger shares Jehovah's name:

“Behold, I send a Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars.

It is the Messenger Himself who led the people out of Egypt:

]16 When we cried out to the LORD, He heard our voice and sent the Messenger and brought us up out of Egypt; now here we are in Kadesh, a city on the edge of your border.

The Messenger who brought them out of Egypt is called “God” in Hebrews 8:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God….”

The Messenger who brought them out of Egypt is identified specificallly as Jesus:

Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. ESV

Hebrews 9:15-17 is VERY CLEAR that it is Jesus who is the Testator of the new covenant. God made an oath to Jesus Christ. This oath confirmed Christ as the “Guarantor” of the new covenant (7:20-22). Jesus Christ then made the new covenant with the house of Israel (chaps 7-8).

It is the death of the Testator that puts the covenant into effect. The Father did not die so who then is the Testator (the one who made the covenant)? Jesus is the Testator without a doubt. He said, “I will make a new covenant…anf I will be their God.”

Jesus said, “This is the new covenant IN MY BLOOD”

It couldn't be more clear!

thinker

February 26, 2010 at 11:21 am#180444

Tim Kraft

Participant

To all: Here is a thought. Jesus didn't die! He is alive and well. Do you talk to him? Do you talk to the dead? Is Jesus here? Don't we all have eternal life? How then can we die? We might transform or transcend or change dimensions but never die! Even if we say the physical body dies it does not cease to exist. It returns to the ground and recycles. You live on, do you not? I have spent over twenty years outside of any church searching for truth on my own and I can say that I believe that from the beginning was God. God is a term used to describe the indescribable all that is. From God came all things that are. God is spirit and is everywhere. To try to divide God or all that is, from his holy spirit is impossible. God is the life force within man. God in man became a living soul. There is no separation between God(the father)the son and the whole spirit. You can put labels and names and terms, and descriptions on anything and everything but the core doesn't change. We are all ONE! IMO Bless all, TK

February 26, 2010 at 12:52 pm#180454

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 26 2010,14:44)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 26 2010,11:53)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2010,09:17)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 24 2010,22:16)

Marty

Where does it say that you will be saved by your works? OT or NT?

Georg

Hi Georg:

Neither place. No man will be saved by his works.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

So, how do you figure all the dead, as they are being resurrected, get their name into the book of life? if in fact they were resurrected after the 1000 years?

Georg

Hi Georg:

Every one who was striving to obey God from the beginning of creation until the time when Jesus comes for the church will have had their names written in the book of life.

I say “striving” because although we as well as they were obeying God. We have all made mistakes.

If someone were to be saved by “works”, that would mean that they obeyed God without making any mistakes.

And so, the scriptures state that salvation is by “faith” so that it might be by “grace”, and not of works lest any man should boast.

The blood that Jesus shed will wash away the sins of all that have obeyed God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

I totally agree with you, but then, what is Paul talking about?

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 ¶ How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Georg

February 26, 2010 at 3:44 pm#180464

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2010,05:16)

Hi TT,
The Holy Spirit of Christ[and of God] enlightened and led the prophets.[1Peter1, 1Cor10]
But Jesus, the man, had yet to be born.

God's angelic messengers also have always ministered the words and powers of God.
God uses holy vessels.

Nick….You almost got it right , the HOLY SPIRIT (is of GOD) It is the CHRISTOS or the ANOINTING , that was with the Children of Israel and lead them (through various ways and People) in the wilderness. And after Jesus was Born came to be (IN) him also.

God's Spirit (IS) the common denominator that will Be (IN) all and through (ALL)> It appears you do not believe in the Preexistence of Jesus before his berth as a Being. I hope you have come to see that.

peace and love to you and yours………………gene

February 26, 2010 at 5:00 pm#180468

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 18 2010,22:28)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 18 2010,14:25)

thinker

No, it shows how little you understand of what is being talked about.
God made a covenant with Israel, the nation. She, the nation, was the church in the wilderness; you know that the church is also referred to as a woman, as the bride of Christ.
The Son, not yet called Jesus in the OT, was the husband.

Jer 31:31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

When the wife, Israel, killed her husband, Jesus, the son was free to choose a new wife, church. they are the saints, spiritual Israelites.
Now keep in mind, the covenant Jesus made the night before he died, is not “thee” “new covenant”. He did NOT make that covenant with Israel.

Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

It is “A” new covenant, but is is for the forgiveness of sins, it was not made with Israel.

Jer 31:33 But this “shall be” the covenant that I “will make” with the house of Israel; “After” those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

After those days refer to the third and last tribulation, and just before Christ will begin his reign; less then a decade away.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

I think you have to admit, we are not there yet.

Georg

Georg,

Hogwash! Irene said that you use the Ryrie Study Bible. It is from this “Bible” that you get this stuff. Irene shot you in the foot again. Jesus is the Testator because it is the testator who dies. Therefore, Jesus is God because God alone is the Testator.

Israel has been divorced. God will not re-marry Israel. He married the Church. The covenant was made with the regenerated Israel which is the Church (Matthew 25).

thinker

thinker how did I shot my Husband in the foot? Because that in Hebrew 1:8 it says that Jesus is called God by His Father? Not to many believe that makes any difference, because the word God is a title and God Jehovah is above all and will always be above all. The LORD God is one LORD, while Lord is Jesus Christ. Again not many even see that….Georg however does.
We are in the New Covenant. I don't know why Georg said that we are not, and I am going to ask Him when I see Him next. And will get back with you on that. If Israel is part of that I doubt that. Some did become Christians in the first Century and even now, but the majority have not. They still keep the Old. I know someone who keeps both:) To each His own, but I do not find it right. One foot in the Old and one foot in the New. How ridiculous is that. No member of H.N. God however does have a New Covenant with the Jewish People in mind.
Then finally they will be the example that God wanted them to be from the beginning. But of course God knew that they would disobey Him……I think there is a Scripture however I cant find it.
There are two Scriptures
Math. 26:28 For this is the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Luke 22:20…”This cup is the new covenant in My Blood which is shed for you.”
O. K. I just talked to Georg and this is what the Prophecy of the New Covenant for Israel is, as Georg says this Covenant has never been fulfilled. And these are the Scriptures.

Jer 31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
Jer 31:31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
So I did not shoot Him in the foot, I missed because His butt is hurting all the time….

Peace and Love Irene

February 26, 2010 at 6:47 pm#180503

Participant

Irene said:

Quote

I just talked to Georg and this is what the Prophecy of the New Covenant for Israel is, as Georg says this Covenant has never been fulfilled.

Irene,

To whom was the author of Hebrews speaking? He was speaking to Israelites.

According to Hebrews 7:20-22 the new covenant took effect when Christ became High Priest. So if the new covenant is still future, then Christ is not High priest yet.

The new covenant cannot be future. It was made to physical Israel which does not exist anymore (Encyclopedia Brittanica).

Ryrie was a misguided man. He based his notes on the teachings of C.I. Scofield who was a medical doctor and not a theologian. Scofield based his notes on the teachings of J.N. Darby who had no formal theological training. Darby was influenced by a Catholic woman named Margaret McDonald who claimed to have visions about prophecy.

Again, Hebrews was written to Israelites who had Jesus as their High priest. Christ was High priest over the new covenant. So the new covenant took effect when Jesus ascended to heaven as High priest.

Ryrie's notes are apostate and anathema!

thinker

February 26, 2010 at 7:04 pm#180510

Participant

Hi TT,
Hebrews was written to the saved.
There are no longer Jews nor greeks but they are one in Christ Jesus.

February 26, 2010 at 7:17 pm#180514

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 27 2010,05:47)

Irene said:

Quote

I just talked to Georg and this is what the Prophecy of the New Covenant for Israel is, as Georg says this Covenant has never been fulfilled.

Irene,

To whom was the author of Hebrews speaking? He was speaking to Israelites.

According to Hebrews 7:20-22 the new covenant took effect when Christ became High Priest. So if the new covenant is still future, then Christ is not High priest yet.

The new covenant cannot be future. It was made to physical Israel which does not exist anymore (Encyclopedia Brittanica).

Ryrie's notes are apostate and anathema!

thinker

Thinker

I guess I gave you a new crutch, Ryrie, did I? don't lean on it to heavily, it's a week crutch.
I'm not going to repeat the scriptures Irene quoted for you, since you don't pay attention to them anyway, but in them you would find that the covenant God “WILL” make with Israel AND all people, is not the covenant we are under now.
Christ made a covenant in his “BLOOD”, and all that follow him in this covenant have to do the same.
Not for you, but for those that are interested in the truth!

Psa 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

Psa 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

In the millennium there will be no covenant by sacrifice, or by faith, it will be a covenant by obedience.

Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Georg

February 26, 2010 at 8:16 pm#180534

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2010,06:04)

Hi TT,
Hebrews was written to the saved.
There are no longer Jews nor greeks but they are one in Christ Jesus.

Nick,

You ought ot be after Irene and Georg on this one. The actually buy the Darbyite idea that the new covenant has not been fulfilled.

They say that the doctrine of the trinity must be fallacious because it did not appear until the third century. Yet the dispensationalist, Darbyite view that the new covenant is not fulfilled did not appear until the 19th century.

btw, the book of Hebrews was written to Israelites.

thinker

February 26, 2010 at 8:58 pm#180540

Participant

Georg said:

Quote

guess I gave you a new crutch, Ryrie, did I? don't lean on it to heavily, it's a week crutch.

Georg,

Irene gave me the “crutch.” If you and she had not arrogantly accused me and WJ of teaching the doctrines of men I would not be making so much of this. But now we know that you are parroting the doctrines of men yourself. I can make you think twice before you run off the accusations.

Georg:

Quote

In the millennium there will be no covenant by sacrifice, or by faith, it will be a covenant by obedience.

How can a covenant of obedience be a new covenant? The old covenant was a covenant of obedience.

What I am hearing from you is that the new covenant is for the millennium. But if the millennium is a covenant of obedience then it is not a new covenant. It is a return to the old covenant.

You're parroting Ryrie. Polly want a cracker?

thinker

February 26, 2010 at 9:23 pm#180544

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 27 2010,07:16)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2010,06:04)

Hi TT,
Hebrews was written to the saved.
There are no longer Jews nor greeks but they are one in Christ Jesus.

Nick,

You ought ot be after Irene and Georg on this one. The actually buy the Darbyite idea that the new covenant has not been fulfilled.

btw, the book of Hebrews was written to Israelites.

thinker

Hi TT,
The trinity dogma is not from the bible teachings.
That is why it has no place among God's people.

February 27, 2010 at 3:23 am#180653