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Identity and nature. Many are confused about the difference. This might clear it up. You can change your nature, but you are still you. For example, the Son of God was divine, but he emptied himself and came in the flesh. Yet, regardless of nature, he was still the Son of God.
Doctrines like the Trinity define God primarily as divine nature or a substance. Thus the Father is divine, the Son is divine, and the Spirit. So all three must be God. Further, many denominations are based on creeds that go something like this:
God is one God, and exists in the form of three coeternal and consubstantial persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. The three persons are distinct, yet are one “substance, essence or nature”…
But scripturally speaking, God is not defined as a substance or by his nature. But by his identity. Yes God has divine nature, but we read in scripture, that many have and will partake in divine nature. So divine nature is not the prerequisite for making a person God. If that was the case, then the sons of God would be God too.
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.Let’s look at another example. We know that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. And we know that the Word became flesh.
2 John 7
For many deceivers have entered into the world who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichristJohn 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God…John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.Can you see how nature doesn’t define the person and that you are still you, even if your nature changes? If Jesus Christ is the divine Word spoken of in John 1:1, then emptying himself and coming in the flesh would mean that he is a completely different person if nature is what defines God.
So why then is God defined as a substance or divine nature in many church creeds? God is a person. He is called HE, HIM. A divine substance that contains multiple persons is not a HE or HIM. The true faith that as been passed down is that God is one. That this God is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. That he is our God and the God of Jesus Christ too.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’I don’t think anyone has attempted to debunk this teaching.
Does anyone have a scripture or argument against it?
I will probably turn this into a writing. So post your objections to help eliminate any possible error.
With a brief skim through your post, I don’t think you can prove that the Son emptied himself of his original nature. I would challenge that. I would say that while being in the form of God, he emptied himself in some undisclosed manner in order to come in the form of man. I don’t believe for one minute that one can empty themselves of their original nature and completely replace it with another.
So he was a God-Man when he walked the earth?
The scriptures are clear that he was a man. Not a God or the God.
After all, we are flesh and then later are born of the Spirit.
But Christ was different because he came in the flesh.
Now he is back in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.
With a brief skim through your post, I don’t think you can prove that the Son emptied himself of his original nature. I would challenge that. I would say that while being in the form of God, he emptied himself in some undisclosed manner in order to come in the form of man. I don’t believe for one minute that one can empty themselves of their original nature and completely replace it with another.
Hi Sis Kathi it’s a very good question on how a God can empty his nature and completely replace it with another nature. This can only happen in mythology.
We have many such examples in our Hinduism in India where a member of Triune God head Lord Vishnu had left his original nature and transformed into 10 different Avatars(also known as Incarnations) to save the world from evil influences. The Ten Avatars are Matsya (half fish, a half-human), Kurma(the half tortoise half-man), Varaha(the half man and half boar), Narasimha(the half lion and a half-human), Vamana(a dwarf human Brahmin), Parashurama(a mixed human of Brahmin Kshatriya), Rama(the most significant and powerful deity), Krishna(another major form of diety), Buddha(known as Gautam Buddha), and Kalki(Kalki is the only avatar of Vishnu that is yet to be born. He will end all evil by defeating the demon Kali and start a new Satyayuga(An Age with truth) or Kalkiyuga. Kali is all the negative emotions and elements personified into one. Kalki is depicted as a warrior riding a white horse and holding a shining sword..)
Hi Sis Kathi it’s a very good question on how a God can empty his nature and completely replace it with another nature. This can only happen in mythology.
That which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is spirit.
If you are born again, you can enter the kingdom of God.
Amen Lightenup!
Christ IS divino/human(Colossians 2:9)
gloire.
1Tim.3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
👉God was manifest in the flesh,👈
👉justified in the Spirit,
👉seen of angels,
👉preached unto the Gentiles,
👉believed on in the world,
👉received up into glory.
16
kai omologoumenwV mega estin to thV eusebeiaV musthrion qeoV efanerwqh en sarki edikaiwqh en pneumati wfqh aggeloiV ekhrucqh en eqnesin episteuqh en kosmw anelhfqh en doxhAmen!
Proclaimer………This is the way I see it, Jesus was prophesied to come into his existence by the prophets, along time before his existence came to reality. The error is on the fact that, a word can not actually itself be a real person, no word can, be , because a word is an expression of someone that come from anyone that speaks it, a word is defined as an intellegent utterance expressed by the person who expressed it. THEREFORE , John 1:1 , is just saying this, “in the geginning was the word and the word was with God and the word “WAS GOD”. Yes God and “his word is one and the same person. just as you and your words are you, unless you are quoting someone else’s words.
God the Father’s words, “HE” spoke through the prophets, about Jesus Christ, came into being, it was the Flesh Man Jesus, that is all the scripture meant where it says “AND THE “WORD” BECAME FLESH”, it is just saying that Jesus is, that flesh man, God’s word, was talking about , through the prophets, it (God the fathers word ), had come to pass.
That passage has nothing to do with Jesus himself being, God’s the Father’s Word , God the Father’s word is God the Fathers, and no one else’s , just as our words are us and no one else’s words, the same thing applies to God the Father as to us and Jesus also.
Why do you think Jesus said this, “the words I am telling you are “NOT MY WORDS” but the words of him that sent me.” why would he ever say that if He himself was the actual word of God?, he could not make a statement like that if he were himself the actual word of God right?
Peace and love you to you and yours Proclaimer………gene
Without controversy: The wonderful summary of Christian truth in 1 Timothy 3:16 should be without controversy among believers. It is unfortunate when those who claim to be Christians debate or deny these fundamental truths.
“When he says ‘without controversy,’ I suppose he means that there ought to be no controversy about these facts, though controversies have arisen concerning them, and always will, since the most self-evident truth will always find self-evident fools to contradict it.” (Spurgeon)
God was manifested in the flesh: This is the essence of the incarnation; the Son OF God , added to His deity humanity – and was thus manifested in the flesh.
“Observe that the comprehensive summary of the gospel here given is contained in six little sentences, which run with such regularity of measure in the original Greek, that some have supposed them to be an ancient hymn; and it is possible that they may have been used as such in the early church.” (Spurgeon)
Justified in the Spirit: We can say that Jesus was justified by the Spirit not in the sense that He was once sinful but made righteous, but in the sense that He was declared to be, by the Holy Spirit, what He always was – completely justified before the Father.
“When he says ‘without controversy,’ I suppose he means that there ought to be no controversy about these facts, though controversies have arisen concerning them, and always will, since the most self-evident truth will always find self-evident fools to contradict it.” (Spurgeon)
Your view leads to error Berean. You take one scripture to make the excuse of throwing out many. You see, if the only true God is the Father, then Jesus is the Father come in the flesh. If you don’t believe in this conclusion, then you are forced to throw out many scriptures. For example:
John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.You clearly have a conflict to sort out. Further, when a demon is manifest in the flesh or on a herd of pigs, does that mean a demon came as a pig or a man? Or does it mean that a man or pig was possessed by a demon?
If you manifest God, then you are God? Do you manifest God? I guess no according to your own doctrine.
Proclaimer
The Word which was God in the beginning was made flesh, (John 1:1) This IS What Paul says in 1Timothy 3:16
You don’t seem to agree!? Who can I?
John and Paul are ONE on the subject.
The Son who came out of the Father (begotten) is “the reflection of the Glory of God the Father, the impression of his person.” (Hebrews 1:3)
Emmanuel: God with US
EXACTLY WHAT JESUS IS TO ME.PROCLAIMING, TO DEMONSTRATE THE FALSENESS OF THE TRINITY DOCTRINE, IT IS NECESSARY TO KNOW WELL THE TRUTH OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF THE FATHER.
The Word which was God in the beginning was made flesh,
- The Word became flesh.
- The Word was divine.
- God is not a man.
Hi Gene,
You: The error is on the fact that, a word can not actually itself be a real person, no word can, be , because a word is an expression of someone that come from anyone that speaks it,
Gene, just read this revelation please and be aware that
“THE WORD” ACTUALLY ITSELF WAS IN THE TRUTH MADE FLESH
B.D. No. 8141
April 3rd 1962I Myself, the eternal Word, came to earth and became flesh…. It was an act of overwhelming love and mercy that had moved Me to make contact with the human beings who had distanced themselves from Me to a point that they were no longer able to hear My voice, that they could no longer hear My Word within themselves, and who did not have a relationship with the Word of eternity any more…. They had caused this vast distance from Me themselves, and they would never have been able to bridge this distance on their own, they would never have been able to hear My Word again such as it was in the beginning when I could communicate with all My living creations through the Word…. For this reason My love has bridged the vast distance Itself…. I Myself came to earth and became flesh and then tried to get in touch with My living creations in order to speak to them again and to build a
bridge for them which would lead them back to Me into the kingdom of light and bliss…. I Am the eternal Word Myself but I could not have spoken directly to any human being from above without placing those who once had originated from Me as free-living creations into a state of compulsion. They had to cross the bridge to Me voluntarily and I could only achieve that by means of My Word which, however, should not sound extraordinary but like the spoken word between human beings. And for this reason I became flesh…. I took abode in the human cover of Jesus and spoke to people through Him…. But it was My Word which now was spoken to them, and through this Word I was able to show people the way. I was able to instruct them and tell them My will, I was able to reveal the Gospel to them, the divine teaching of love, which should once again change their souls to a state which would enable every person to hear My Word within himself if this was his sincere will…. But first humanity had to be released from sin and death. The former guilt of sin, caused by the apostasy from Me, first had to be redeemed, so that the subsequent bond with Me could be crowned by the ‘pouring out of My spirit’…. so that the human being himself could hear My voice within himself again as it was in the beginning…. ‘And the Word was made flesh and lived amongst us….’Only a few people understand the meaning of these words;
the eternal Word came to earth Itself because humanity was in greatest difficulty, it was not aware of its wretched condition, of its lack of light, of the spiritual darkness in which it lived…. It was completely separate from Me and did nothing to reduce its vast distance from Me. The only way to help people was by means of instructions which corresponded to the truth…. They
had to be informed of their God and Creator’s will, and this will had to be conveyed to them by Myself…. I had to speak to them Myself and could only do so through a human being…. Thus I embodied Myself in this human being, and only in this manner was it possible to instruct people truthfully, to draw their attention to their wrong way of life, to inform them of My will and exemplify the kind of life they should lead themselves in order to escape their spiritual darkness, in order to walk the path I showed them first so that they could attain eternal life again. For they were influenced by My adversary who continuously provoked them into leading a life without love which subsequently made and kept them weak and they were not able to contribute anything towards their ascent. I Myself provided them with the evidence that love results in strength. I healed the sick and carried out other miracles which only the strength of love could accomplish…. I also informed them about the consequences of a heartless way of life…. for I first had to explain to people why they were experiencing physical and spiritual hardship…. I had to inform them that their state as human beings could not be considered a happy one and what they therefore should do to attain beatitude…. And they had to hear all of this from the mouth of God…. They had to be able to hear My Word,
and thus the Word Itself came down to earth and became flesh….In the original state the Word sounded within every being and was the cause of inconceivable bliss…. And the beings abandoned this blissfulness themselves by voluntarily distancing themselves from Me and thus could not hear My Word any longer, because this Word was a direct emanation of love on My part which they then rejected. Humanity’s excessive hardship on earth prompted My love and mercy to draw nearer to them and to confront them in Word despite their resistance…. And anyone who had ignited just a tiny spark of love within himself recognized Me and accepted My Word…. He also recognized the Deity in Me and followed Me…. But by and large people just saw the human being in Me and therefore valued My Word simply as that of a human being…. I was amongst them and they did not recognize Me…. Nevertheless, I was able to proclaim the Gospel of love, to repeatedly impart the divine teaching of love to people and to educate My apostles Myself and then send them into the world with the task
of proclaiming My Gospel and bearing witness to Me…. The ‘Word Itself’ had come to earth, and It was made flesh for the benefit of humanity…. And every time My Word is spoken, My infinite love and mercy bows down towards humanity and emits Its love into those human hearts who willingly accept My Word, who listen to it and recognize it as their Father’s voice and who are grateful for this great gift of grace….For I Myself Am the eternal Word,
and anyone who listens to Me enters into closest contact with Me, and he will indeed achieve his last goal on this earth, he will find complete unification with Me, his God and Father, to Whom he has finally returned to be eternally blessed…
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Gadam,
You: This can only happen in mythology.
ME: ONLY BECAUSE YOU DON’T BELIEVE IN
THE TRUE GOD!
Do you believe that God can multiply and bilocate Himself as He pleases?
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Proclaimer
Translating “divine” in John 1 is not STRONG ENOUGH and does not do the text justice, especially when we know that THE SON CAME UP FROM THE VERY SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER, AND IS “the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person”
In the biginning WAS THE WORD AND THE WORD WAS WITH THE GOD(THEOS:2316) AND THE WORD WAS GOD(THEOS:2316).
Divine
2304
qeioV
theios
qeiaV
2 Pe 1:3, 2 Pe 1:4qeion
Acts 17:292Peter 1:3 According as his divine(2304) power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue
Acts 17:29
17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God(2316), we ought not to think that the Godhead(2304) is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
2316
theos
theh’-os
of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:–X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).Have a good day
Berean…….Your problem is you cherry pick our scriptures to the exclusion of the rest of them , and try to make your points, you can never get the real trite by doing that . You reject and fail to deal with scriptures that completely disagree with what you say, you force even the text you use to say what in fact they do say, this is how I know you are not of the truth, in fact that is what all trinitarians do . I have quoted to you scriptures showing that, but you never answer those s riptures , you simple treat them as if the are not even in the scriptures, as long as you ignore those scriptures , clearly written in the scriptures you can never understand the truth. IMO
I ASKED YOU A SIMPLE QUESTION, “How can Jesus be “himself” the word of God?, in light of this scripture,
John 14:10……“Believe you not that I am ”in” the Father , and the Father is “in” me? , THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, I SPEAK “NOT” OF, or (from) MYSELF : but the Father that dwells “IN” me , “HE” does the work?
Here Jesus denies the words are his words, but you say he is the “word” the word of God himself. So tell us Berean who are we to believe , you or Jesus? I choose Jesus myself.
Peace and love to you and yours Berean………..gene
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