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Quote (Tim2 @ April 12 2007,10:08) David, So please explain what you think “god” means as applied to Jesus.
The problem is that the New Testament describes Jesus as not just like YHWH, but as YHWH. The Lamb sits on the same throne as God. YHWH would never allow this. The same praise is given to the Lamb as to God. YHWH would never allow this. Nor would YHWH allow salvation to be by the name of another god. Nor would YHWH derive glory from someone kneeling before another god. Nor would YHWH allow another god to be His power. And so forth.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Please do not treat foolish logic as equal to scripture.
How do you know how God would act?
Would you prescribe rules for God?Nick,
So now you believe that Jesus is another god too? I thought you believed he is just a vessel for the Spirit of God?
I know how YHWH acts because the Bible tells me so. YHWH will not share His glory with any other. YHWH alone is saviour. YHWH does not let His people have any other gods.
Tim
Quote So please explain what you think “god” means as applied to Jesus. –Tim2
Quote As for the meaning of gods when it is applied to these others, I think it . . . rightly ascribes some degree of power to YHWH's angels or human rulers such as Moses and the judges of Israel. –Tim2
Quote I agree, that when it is used with reference to anyone, it ascribes “power” or strength or might. –David
The reason some are false gods is that they have no real power, as you say:
Quote As for the meaning of gods when it is applied to these others, I think it either denotes a false assumption of power, as in the gods of the nations, Quote The problem is that the New Testament describes Jesus as not just like YHWH, but as YHWH. The Lamb sits on the same throne as God.
1. That authority was “given” him by his Father.
2. Nowhere is the holy spirit ever mentioned as sitting on that throne, whereas Jesus and the Father are.I have nowhere said that Jesus is equal to anyone else called a god. The word god indicates “power” as you said. How much power, would depend on who it is applied to. Jesus, being “given” all this power and authority has more power and authority than everyone else, except “his God” Jehovah, “his” powerful, mighty one.
Quote The same praise is given to the Lamb as to God.
That's questionable. “praise” maybe but the same praise.“praise Jah” is a term used 32 times in the Bible, 4 being in Revelation.
“praise Jehovah” 18 times.“praise Jesus” or “praise Christ” does not exist in the Bible, although he certainly is praiseworthy.
We notice that when on earth, he directed worship to his God and Father, not himself.Quote The same praise is given to the Lamb as to God. YHWH would never allow this.
Please include the scriptures you're speaking of. Often when the Bible says this, it's clearly contrasting false gods, ones that are worshipped, and looked to, yet have no actual power at all.Quote Nor would YHWH allow salvation to be by the name of another god.
In the Bible we often find the words “through Jesus.” God did something “through Jesus.”
Please go back to that scripture, Jude 25.Quote Nor would YHWH allow another god to be His power.
What does this mean?Quote (Tim2 @ April 12 2007,10:25) Nick, So now you believe that Jesus is another god too? I thought you believed he is just a vessel for the Spirit of God?
I know how YHWH acts because the Bible tells me so. YHWH will not share His glory with any other. YHWH alone is saviour. YHWH does not let His people have any other gods.
Tim
Hi tim2,
But you have to read between the lines
and it leads to foolish conclusions
such that Jesus is his own father.This isn't such a strange thing. It happens all the time in real life:
Oh, many, many years ago
When I was twenty-three
I was married to a widow
Who was pretty as can be
This widow had a grown-up daughter
Who had hair of red
My father fell in love with her
And soon the two were wedThis made my dad my son-in-law
And changed my very life
For my daughter was my mother
'Cause she was my father's wife
To complicate the matter
Though it really brought me joy
I soon became the father
Of a bouncing baby boyThis little baby then became
A brother-in-law to Dad
And so became my uncle
Though it made me very sad
For if he was my uncle
Then that also made him brother
Of the widow's grown-up daughter
WHo of course is my step-motherChorus
I'm my own grandpa
I'm my own grandpa
It sounds funny I know
But it really is so
Oh, I'm my own grandpaMy father's wife then had a son
Who kept them on the run
And he became my grandchild
For he was my daughter's son
My wife is now my mother's mother
And it makes me blue
Because although she is my wife
She's my grandmother tooNow if my wife is my grandmother
Then I'm her grandchild
And every time I think of it
It nearly drives me wild
For now I have become
The strangest case you ever saw
As husband of my grandma
I am my own grandpa[chorus]
While I haven't studied this song, I think the logic of it is sound. There are probably people out there who are their own grandfather.
David,
I'm still not sure what your doctrine of Jesus' ontology is. I asked this from t8. I would like it from you too. What exactly do you believe Jesus is?
The word El is used often to denote power in the OT. It is also used to refer to false gods, angels, and judges. And it's most often used to denote GOD, YHWH. The New Testament helps us out, as it uses Theon much more restrictively, I believe, almost exclusively for the one God, YHWH. I do not believe that Theon means power. When it mentions theoi, it is clear that they are no gods at all, as in 1 Cor 8. Moreover, I know of only one translation of the “El” group in the OT that is translated as theoi, and that is John 10, when Jesus mentions the earthly judges. More often, as in Hebrews 1 and 2, the “El” beings are translated as angels. This suggests that we cannot assume that beings called El in the OT are actually gods, since the NT doesn't call them theoi. This is explained better on http://trisagionseraph.tripod.com/othergodsf.html
My point is that Theon or Theos in the New Testament doesn't mean mighty one. It means God. So when Jesus is called Theos (John 1:1, 1:18, 20:28), it means that He is the one true God. If your response is that Satan is called Theos in 2 Corinthians 4:4, first note that it is limited to this age and that no such limitation applies to Jesus, as He was Theos in the beginning. And second, are you saying that Jesus is the same type of being as Satan?
You say, “That authority was “given” him by his Father.” By this you mean that Jesus doesn't inherently have the authority, but the Father gave it to him at a point in time. We believe that Jesus received this authority at His begetting, so that He has this authority in Himself, for Jesus is out of, ek, the Father.
The same praise is given to Jesus as to God. John 5:23. Revelation 5:13. Also, compare Colossians 1:16 and Romans 11:36. And of course 2 Peter 3:18.
You speak as if Isaiah 43:11 means YHWH will bring salvation through another god, as if the “through” makes it all better. That's ridiculous. In Isaiah 45:18-25, He says:
“I am YHWH and there is no one else.” (But you say, oh, there is someone else THROUGH whom we must be saved.)
“A righteous God and a Saviour; There is none except Me.” (But there is someone else THROUGH whom we must be saved.)
“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.” (except this other god we must turn to, THROUGH whom we must be saved.)
“To Me every knee will bow, and every tongue will swear.” (Actually, we're supposed to bow to this other god, THROUGH whom we'll be giving glory to YHWH.)
“They will say of Me, 'Only in YHWH are righteousness and strength.” (Well, there's this other god who is our righteousness, but I guess that's just THROUGH him.)Jesus is the power and wisdom of God. 1 Corinthians 1:24. (Um, it's just God's power THROUGH him.)
Tim
Hi Tim2,
You say
“My point is that Theon or Theos in the New Testament doesn't mean mighty one. It means God. So when Jesus is called Theos (John 1:1, 1:18, 20:28), it means that He is the one true God. If your response is that Satan is called Theos in 2 Corinthians 4:4, first note that it is limited to this age and that no such limitation applies to Jesus, as He was Theos in the beginning. And second, are you saying that Jesus is the same type of being as Satan?”Please either follow scriptural interpretation or not, but a smorgasbord of logic and inference as well as scripture is not appropriate. Satan was also a liar and a murderer from “the beginning.”
Quote (david @ April 12 2007,10:28) Quote So please explain what you think “god” means as applied to Jesus. –Tim2
Quote As for the meaning of gods when it is applied to these others, I think it . . . rightly ascribes some degree of power to YHWH's angels or human rulers such as Moses and the judges of Israel. –Tim2
Quote I agree, that when it is used with reference to anyone, it ascribes “power” or strength or might. –David
The reason some are false gods is that they have no real power, as you say:
Quote As for the meaning of gods when it is applied to these others, I think it either denotes a false assumption of power, as in the gods of the nations, Quote The problem is that the New Testament describes Jesus as not just like YHWH, but as YHWH. The Lamb sits on the same throne as God.
1. That authority was “given” him by his Father.
2. Nowhere is the holy spirit ever mentioned as sitting on that throne, whereas Jesus and the Father are.I have nowhere said that Jesus is equal to anyone else called a god. The word god indicates “power” as you said. How much power, would depend on who it is applied to. Jesus, being “given” all this power and authority has more power and authority than everyone else, except “his God” Jehovah, “his” powerful, mighty one.
Quote The same praise is given to the Lamb as to God.
That's questionable. “praise” maybe but the same praise.“praise Jah” is a term used 32 times in the Bible, 4 being in Revelation.
“praise Jehovah” 18 times.“praise Jesus” or “praise Christ” does not exist in the Bible, although he certainly is praiseworthy.
We notice that when on earth, he directed worship to his God and Father, not himself.Quote The same praise is given to the Lamb as to God. YHWH would never allow this.
Please include the scriptures you're speaking of. Often when the Bible says this, it's clearly contrasting false gods, ones that are worshipped, and looked to, yet have no actual power at all.Quote Nor would YHWH allow salvation to be by the name of another god.
In the Bible we often find the words “through Jesus.” God did something “through Jesus.”
Please go back to that scripture, Jude 25.Quote Nor would YHWH allow another god to be His power.
What does this mean?
DavidConcerning the New Testament word “Theos”.
1336 times the word “Theos” is found in the New Testament scriptures.
All were translated “God” referring to the Father and Yeshua, except 13 times for “False gods” including satan and the man of sin and man, and eight times Godly.
I checked them all. Not once out of all 1336 times is there a mention of any Angel of God with the word “Theos”.
Neither is there any example of the word “Theos” ascribed to a living man or king or lord of the most high *in that day* other than Yeshua.
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.This is one of the scriptures that you have a problem with. Because you say that you shouldnt pick and choose and yet that is exactly what you do. You say he is “A” god or he is divine.
John knew exactly what the word “Theos” meant to him, because in every other place the word is used for Yeshua, he used this word when he could have used another?
Do you think he would create this kind of confusion by using “Theos” in John 1:1 as well as John 20:28?
Why didnt he use “chrematizo, Acts 10:22, Heb 11:7”
or
“theios, 2 Pet 1:3,4, which by the way is used by Peter for divine nature and power, which you try to force this word to mean that we are equal to Yeshua or the Father in being. Yeshua *is* divine, “Theos”, not “Theios” which is what we share”, This word is found only these 3 times in scripture. Which describes his nature and not his being.
or
“theotes, Col 2:9”
or
“theiotes” Rom 1:20″
Why didnt John use one of these words instead of “Theos” in John 1:1?
Why didn't Paul or Peter or Timothy or Titus use one of the other words?
You talk about being consistant with the word “Theos”.
It seems to me that being consistant with “Theos” is exactly what over 500 Greek and Hebrew scholars did when they translated John 1:1.
So do you believe the Scriptures and the Apostles or not?
Hi W,
It really does not matter what the mighty Son of God is called,
because it does not alter the fact that for us there is One God, the Father.Quote I checked them all. Not once out of all 1336 times is there a mention of any Angel of God with the word “Theos”. And when Jesus quoted from the Hebrew scriptures where he was referring to the angels as gods, which word did he use?
Quote Neither is there any example of the word “Theos” ascribed to a living man or king or lord of the most high *in that day* other than Yeshua. It's not that surpising. How many times are angels, Moses, and the Israelite judges called “gods” in the Hebrew scriptures? What? 3?
If the NT is about 400 of the 1600 pages in your Bible, then statistically, if you carried that frequency through the Greek scriptures, you'd mathematically expect “theos” to be used with reference to humans or angels in the same way between 0 and 1 times, which it does. So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
Are you saying that the term for God in Hebrew is much different in meaning for the term in Greek and if so, could you explain the difference in meanings and what you base this on.What I do know is that when the Greek scriptures were written and quotes were quoted from the Hebrew, we find the word “theos” where Elohim was, don't we?
Did those early Christians misunderstand the meanings?
Were they wrong to do this?Quote his is one of the scriptures that you have a problem with. Because you say that you shouldnt pick and choose and yet that is exactly what you do. You say he is “A” god or he is divine. Logic dictates that if he is “with” him, he cannot be him, UNLESS you believe in a mystery of sorts, the trinity. Then, this is all fine. It really depends what you believe in: Normal everyday logic or the trinity.
Quote Do you think he would create this kind of confusion by using “Theos” in John 1:1 as well as John 20:28?
I find no confusion in John 1:1 at all. Are you confused? There is really only confusion when you throw out the scriptures that speak of the angels being called gods, etc, and insert your belief that the word “god” = “Jehovah” when in fact, it is a descriptive word that describes Jehovah, but Jehovah isn't the “meaning” or “definition” of God.Speaking of confusion, it seems that whenever there is nothing left for someone to say, they bring up John 1:1 and say: See, there!
Listen, there has to be a thread on John 1:1, and if there isn't you should create one, because I'd love to discuss this again.
But in this thread, I'd like you to answer the questions I laid out or try to answer them.
What is the meaning of God if Moses was called the god of Pharoah? What does God mean if the angels have that term applied to them? What does that tell us about the very word “god” and in turn, what does that tell us about Jesus being called God?
Hi david Just some thoughts on the flesh “gods”
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be *as gods,* knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as *one of us*, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
So much as it seems we received a portion of likeness with God by the transgression in the beginning; which God has never said or removed from Man Kind?
They shall be as gods;
Being more powerful in Moses for his desiring Gods will on earth elected then exhibiting wonders and signs before Gods people As The I AM?
But now MAN likened as gods he asks us to increase in the knowledge OF good being wise in Good; turning everything to Good? Col 1:10 that ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;And the sprit of Christ as the tree of life in the garden? from the beginning?Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
We must eat from the tree of life to put on in coruption;Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.But the judgment is now on shoulders of man AS gods; if they eat of the knowledge of evil and Christ the tree of life DANGER that they become eternal living forever; having once been SAVED and removed from the garden; as to not be transformed eternally by eating from the tree of life without understanding; Gen 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
The gods of likeness of God must learn what sin is
With out understanding we can not depart from using the knowledge as Gods for evil
Jer 4:22 For my people [is] foolish, they have not known me; they [are] sottish children, and they have none understanding: they [are] wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.charity
“The gods of likeness of God must learn what sin is”
We are in an evil world learning what is good. How do we learn what is good when being in an evil world? Through the Spirit and the Truth. The light of the world, salt of the earth we follow the Spirit of truth, being persecuted for doing so.
Jesus never leaves us. But we are as lambs in a world of wolves. Give thought to the wolves (Flesh) and we die. Abide in the Spirit and live.
What is sin?
1Jo 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness.David
You say…
Quote
And when Jesus quoted from the Hebrew scriptures where he was referring to the angels as gods, which word did he use?What scripture are you speaking of.?
You say…
Quote It's not that surpising. How many times are angels, Moses, and the Israelite judges called “gods” in the Hebrew scriptures? What? 3?
If the NT is about 400 of the 1600 pages in your Bible, then statistically, if you carried that frequency through the Greek scriptures, you'd mathematically expect “theos” to be used with reference to humans or angels in the same way between 0 and 1 times, which it does. So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
Are you saying that the term for God in Hebrew is much different in meaning for the term in Greek and if so, could you explain the difference in meanings and what you base this on.What I do know is that when the Greek scriptures were written and quotes were quoted from the Hebrew, we find the word “theos” where Elohim was, don't we?
Did those early Christians misunderstand the meanings?
Were they wrong to do this?Scriptures David?
Where is “Theos” ascribed to an Angel or a king or a ruler or man or a son of the most high God? Where is a New Testament example other than Yeshua?
Concerning John 1:1…
Quote
Logic dictates that if he is “with” him, he cannot be him, UNLESS you believe in a mystery of sorts, the trinity. Then, this is all fine. It really depends what you believe in: Normal everyday logic or the trinity.
Is this how you understand scriptures and Gods truth David by pure logic?How is it logical to believe that a Monotheistic Jew like John write that the Word was “A” God, which is what your NWT translates going against all the major credible translations which were translated by over 500 Greek and Hebrew scholars. The way I understand it your translators had no credentials for translating at all.
You say…
Quote
I find no confusion in John 1:1 at all. Are you confused? There is really only confusion when you throw out the scriptures that speak of the angels being called gods, etc, and insert your belief that the word “god” = “Jehovah” when in fact, it is a descriptive word that describes Jehovah, but Jehovah isn't the “meaning” or “definition” of God.Speaking of confusion, it seems that whenever there is nothing left for someone to say, they bring up John 1:1 and say: See, there!
Listen, there has to be a thread on John 1:1, and if there isn't you should create one, because I'd love to discuss this again.
But in this thread, I'd like you to answer the questions I laid out or try to answer them.
What is the meaning of God if Moses was called the god of Pharoah? What does God mean if the angels have that term applied to them? What does that tell us about the very word “god” and in turn, what does that tell us about Jesus being called God?
Again in the New Testament give me a living example of an Angel of God being ascribed the word “Theos”.The confusion is with you and your weak NWT that says there is more than one God which is polytheism.
Did John use theos to show another god was with him when he could have used another greek word in John 1:1 and John 20:28?
Talk about logic.
Quote (charity @ April 12 2007,22:21) Hi david Just some thoughts on the flesh “gods” Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be *as gods,* knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as *one of us*, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
So much as it seems we received a portion of likeness with God by the transgression in the beginning; which God has never said or removed from Man Kind?
They shall be as gods;
Being more powerful in Moses for his desiring Gods will on earth elected then exhibiting wonders and signs before Gods people As The I AM?
But now MAN likened as gods he asks us to increase in the knowledge OF good being wise in Good; turning everything to Good? Col 1:10 that ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;And the sprit of Christ as the tree of life in the garden? from the beginning?Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
We must eat from the tree of life to put on in coruption;Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.But the judgment is now on shoulders of man AS gods; if they eat of the knowledge of evil and Christ the tree of life DANGER that they become eternal living forever; having once been SAVED and removed from the garden; as to not be transformed eternally by eating from the tree of life without understanding; Gen 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
The gods of likeness of God must learn what sin is
With out understanding we can not depart from using the knowledge as Gods for evil
Jer 4:22 For my people [is] foolish, they have not known me; they [are] sottish children, and they have none understanding: they [are] wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.charity
CharityI disagree!
Having become as gods then if accepted??
The gods must use the knowledge for good; even as receiving what seemed to be on a bad evil note a likeness by disobedience with the one and only; Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. We have one choice to proceed in Gods plan in hope of transformation taking ever thought captive to what is the good and perfect will of God where by to Find and except your self as the gods with the taste of disobedience attached can the carnal mind receive and turn it to Good in God or exclude themselves from the transgression results even never understanding how to begin. Satan is of higher angelic ranks holding the knowledge before Hand having introduced knowledge and without understanding him self used it for evil? So for what it’s worth knowledge in god’s hands without understanding they understand not and continue there stiff neck in the manner that Satan himself has not ever lern’t Dose he really believe he shall prevail over God; Dose he know God is full of mercy and some how believes he shall be excused; He just plain foolish; How dose his stiff. necked…ness reflect our natures
Who God he himself had expressed that Man had become like “us”; Attention to His help mate wisdomDavid,
I thought I did answer your question. Explain to me where I'm wrong.
The only place in the New Testament I see the non=YHWH “El” or “Elohim” being translated from the OT as theoi is John 10. I thought we agreed that Jesus was talking about human rulers here? Are you saying these are angels who don't do justice for the weak and fatherless?
The “El” in Psalm 97:7 are translated as angels in Hebrews 1:6, showing that they are no gods at all and were never meant to be understood as gods. It rather indicates that “El” was used in the ancient world to denote power, and, as in pagan Canaan, “the Most High God,” but through the revelation of Scripture God asserted that He alone has all power and is almighty. Which again makes me question why you insist on adding this other god to the equation. Read Deuteronomy 13:6-11 to find out what happened to the one who said, “Let us go and serve other gods.”
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Certainly Ps 97 relates to Heb1.6What of Ps 95?
3For the LORD is a great God
And a great King above all gods,Jesus the man was filled with God. We are not filled but if born again we have at least some of God.
That part of us that is of the Spirit is God. God all in all 1 Cor. 15:28.
Do we have the Spirit of Jesus that has the Holy Spirit?
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
LORD:
G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): – God, Lord, master, Sir.Jud 1:4 For1063 there are certain5100 men444 crept in unawares,3921 who were before of old ordained4270, 3819 to1519 this5124 condemnation,2917 ungodly men,765 turning3346 the3588 grace5485 of our2257 God2316 into1519 lasciviousness,766 and2532 denying720 the3588 only3441 Lord1203 God,2316 and2532 our2257 Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ.5547
GOD
G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: – X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].1Co 8:6 But235 to us2254 there is but one1520 God,2316 the3588 Father,3962 of1537 whom3739 are all things,3956 and2532 we2249 in1519 him;846 and2532 one1520 Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ,5547 by1223 whom3739 are all things,3956 and2532 we2249 by1223 him.846
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Lord Jesus Christ:
Supreme in authorityOne God the Father
Diety
One LORD one GOD IN ONE SPIRIT
Hi W,
Guess what.
Jesus is not his father.
He is the monogenes Son of that God.
And you do not have the right using logic to make such statements.Lordship is in different levels.
Landlords are ruled by human lords who will bow the knee to our Lord Jesus who is under God.
Scripture interprets scripture.
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