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Quote (chosenone @ April 11 2007,13:41) Quote (Tim2 @ April 11 2007,09:36) Hi Nick, The Spirit is shown to be a person in John 14:26 and Acts 13:2, among other places.
Where does it say that God is only one person?
Tim
1Cor.8:6…nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father,…Blessings.
Hi Chosenone,“There is one God, the Father” is consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity. Each person is the one God. What you need is a Scripture that says, “Only the Father is God.” John 17:3 doesn't say this; rather, it says, “that they may know you, the only true God.” Again, this is Trinitarian. The Father is the only true God. The Son and the Spirit are also the only true God.
Tim
Tim2.
Paul teaches that for us there is one God, the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Trinitarians teach that there is one God the Father, Son, and Spirit.
You could at least be honest with yourself and see that what you believe and what Paul taught is different.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 11 2007,13:50) Quote (Tim2 @ April 11 2007,13:33) Yes
Hi Tim2,
Where is it stated that the Spirit of God is a person, separate from God Himself [the Father]?
Hi Nick,The Spirit is called a Helper. A helper is a person. Is parakletos ever used of something that's not a person?
Jesus calls the Spirit “He,” the same word He uses for the Father.
The Spirit calls Himself “I” and “Me.”
Make whatever inference you want, but don't say I didn't warn you.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
So all you can come up with is inferential or circumstantial evidence?
Surely if teach these things you can do better than that?To Tim2.
Quote (Tim2 @ April 12 2007,02:23) Quote (david @ April 10 2007,19:48) I ask this again because I think it belongs here and because no one has really attempted to answer it to any significant extent: JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.””If these people wanted him dead (as they clearly did) and if they were willing to do anything to meet that end (which they clearly were; breaking all sorts of laws in their trial of him) then why oh why oh why oh why, didn't they accuse him of the much greater charge: Of claiming to be God himself? ? ? ?
Anyone?
If Jesus claimed to be God Almighty, I think the Jews who wanted him dead must have missed it. Surely they would have used this much greater charge to hav him executed. They were willing to bring forth false witnesses and to bend the law however it suited them. Why wouldn't they accuse him of being God Almighty? Why only accuse him of claiming to be God's son?
This makes no sense to me if he was God Almighty.I know that if I claimed to be the prince of England, people would attack that claim. If I claimed to be the Queen, people would also attack that claim. But which claim would you use if you wanted to bring me down? I'd use the more crazy claim. And to the unbelieving Jews who wanted Jesus dead, you'd have to think they would have thought that claiming to be God himself was more outrageous than claiming to be his son.
Hi David,Well, if you start from the assumption, “the Son of God is not God,” then you're right, the Jews weren't claiming that He was God.
But the whole point of Trinitarianism is that the Son of God is God (just as the son of man is man, the son of a dog is a dog, and so on in all creation). And you reply, “How can God be His own Son?” Again, ignoring what we've been saying, that God is not one person. I understand if this is new to you how it might be confusing, but I get the feeling most of the people on this sight have studied Trinitarianism in depth, so why don't you start arguing with what we're actually saying? Sorry but it's really frustrating when we're trying to discuss/debate and people don't even acknowledge our position.
And there is no doubt that the Jews accused Jesus of being God. This is exactly what they did in John 10:33. And that being the Son makes Jesus equal with God is explicitly stated in John 5:18.
Tim
Yes creation begats after it's own kind.Jesus is a divine being. He came from God and has divine nature.
But he is not the God that he came from. This is what the Trinity doctrine demands that you believe. i.e., that he is the God that he is the son of.
But scripture doesn't teach this or confuse people with this. Rather it teaches the following:
John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.John 16:27
No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.John 16:30
Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”Instead of believing the above scriptures the Trinity doctrine demands that you believe that he is God, rather than coming from him.
So to conclude, Jesus is the image of God and the firstborn.
It is also a good idea not to confuse the truth of these scriptures because it is written:
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Tim2, it is up to you whether you believe scripture or not. But if you are of the truth you will.
Hi Tim2,
So because the Son of God is united with his Dad
and the Spirit is called HE
you have proven that God is a trinity??Are you a biblical scholar?
Hi t8,
Paul preached the same gospel as John and Thomas. That's why he called Jesus our great God and Saviour. Titus 2:13.
What do you mean by divine nature? Is it the same nature as the Father?
It's also a good idea not to confuse the truth of these Scriptures because it is written, “The Word was God,” and “Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God.'”
t8, it is up to you to decide whether you believe Scripture or not.
Tim
So you willingly ignore these scriptures, Tim2:
John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.John 16:27
No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.John 16:30
Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Hi Tim2,
So God is the Word and Jesus is your God and thus the God of the Old Testament must be Jesus?
But he said it was his Dad.Jn 8
” 53Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. “
I think we should rather believe him as you are so confused.
Tim2, men wouldn't believe in the Trinity doctrine if they understood the difference between nature and identity.
In identity, the Most High God is exclusively the Father.
In nature and authority there are many gods.You make the classic mistake of taking any mention of the word “God” and think it is the Most High. But both 'theos' and 'elohim' are also applied to men, angels, idols, and the Devil.
God is a title only and can and is applied to many.
If you insist that the word 'God' is always the Most High, then to be fair, you have to admit that men and angels are too.
But the Most High God is even the God of Jesus Christ.
Jesus is called the son of God for a reason. The son of God is not a meaningless title.
Hi t8,
I believe Scriptures that say Jesus came from God. I believe this means He came out of God (I understand that to be the literal meaning of “ek”). That's what it means for Jesus to be the Son. It means He was begotten out of the Father before all ages.
I believe that the Father is the only true God. I also believe that the Son and the Spirit are also the only true God. John 17:3 doesn't say, “only the Father is the true God.” Again, if you give up your assumption that God is one person, you will see this is consistent.
t8, do you believe that the so-called gods have the same nature as the Father? Does anyone else have the same nature as the Father? I know Scripture applies the word god to other beings, but it is always careful to distinguish them as idols, angels, judges. In general, God means YHWH. And YWHW is emphatic that there is no god beside Him, and that we cannot have any gods beside Him. If you believe Jesus is another god, then you are violating the first commandment, and I urge you to repent.
Tim
Hi Tim2.
Paul taught clearly that there is one God, the Father, and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. You teach that there is one God the Father, Son, and Spirit, and one Lord Father, Lord Jesus, and Lord Spirit.
There is a big difference in what you and Paul teach.
Yes, Jesus is a divine being who emptied himself of his former glory and took on human nature. After he died for us, he was resurrected to the highest place in Heaven to be seated at the right hand of his God and our God. He is now back to his former glory as the Word of God.
Now it is a mystery as to what will become of us, but scripture says that we will be like Christ. He is our brother and God is our Father. God is not our brother but Jesus is.
Do you also not realise that we will partake in divine nature. Yet even then we are not God in identity, even if we partake of his nature. So having or sharing God's nature is no reason to believe that we are God, the Almighty. Yet the Trinity doctrine teaches that God is a substance and that anything with the nature of God is God. But scripture teaches otherwise.
Remember that first comes the physical body (human nature) and then comes the spiritual body.
Quote (Tim2 @ April 12 2007,11:04) t8, do you believe that the so-called gods have the same nature as the Father? Does anyone else have the same nature as the Father? I know Scripture applies the word god to other beings, but it is always careful to distinguish them as idols, angels, judges. In general, God means YHWH. And YWHW is emphatic that there is no god beside Him, and that we cannot have any gods beside Him. If you believe Jesus is another god, then you are violating the first commandment, and I urge you to repent.
Hi Tim2.Here is the answer to what you have written:
Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.
Never again will he leave it.
I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.Revelation 1:6
and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,You see, there is no God besides the Father. He is the true God.
If you believe that Jesus considers his Father to be his God, then it is you who believes that Jesus is God that is beside the one who Christ calls God. So it is you who needs to repent.
Will you?
Hi t8,
Jesus calls the Father His God, and so He is. For as the Athanasian Creed says, Jesus is equal to the Father concerning his Godhead, but inferior to the Father concerning His manhood.
t8, I'm not exactly sure what you believe. Could you please explain who/what you think Jesus is?
Thanks,
TimQuote But the whole point of Trinitarianism is that the Son of God is God (just as the son of man is man, the son of a dog is a dog, and so on in all creation). –Tim 2, page 9
Tim2,
This is what I said and your response or lack thereof:Quote Quote (david @ April 10 2007,19:48)
I ask this again because I think it belongs here and because no one has really attempted to answer it to any significant extent:JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.””If these people wanted him dead (as they clearly did) and if they were willing to do anything to meet that end (which they clearly were; breaking all sorts of laws in their trial of him) then why oh why oh why oh why, didn't they accuse him of the much greater charge: Of claiming to be God himself? ? ? ?
Anyone?
If Jesus claimed to be God Almighty, I think the Jews who wanted him dead must have missed it. Surely they would have used this much greater charge to hav him executed. They were willing to bring forth false witnesses and to bend the law however it suited them. Why wouldn't they accuse him of being God Almighty? Why only accuse him of claiming to be God's son?
This makes no sense to me if he was God Almighty.I know that if I claimed to be the prince of England, people would attack that claim. If I claimed to be the Queen, people would also attack that claim. But which claim would you use if you wanted to bring me down? I'd use the more crazy claim. And to the unbelieving Jews who wanted Jesus dead, you'd have to think they would have thought that claiming to be God himself was more outrageous than claiming to be his son.
Hi David,
Well, if you start from the assumption, “the Son of God is not God,” then you're right, the Jews weren't claiming that He was God.
But the whole point of Trinitarianism is that the Son of God is God (just as the son of man is man, the son of a dog is a dog, and so on in all creation). And you reply, “How can God be His own Son?” Again, ignoring what we've been saying, that God is not one person. I understand if this is new to you how it might be confusing, but I get the feeling most of the people on this sight have studied Trinitarianism in depth, so why don't you start arguing with what we're actually saying? Sorry but it's really frustrating when we're trying to discuss/debate and people don't even acknowledge our position.
And there is no doubt that the Jews accused Jesus of being God. This is exactly what they did in John 10:33. And that being the Son makes Jesus equal with God is explicitly stated in John 5:18.
JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.””I have yet to see any indication in the scriptures or history that indicates that they had him killed because he was claiming to be God, but rather, it was because he said he was “God's son.”
LUKE 1:32
“This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High.” (How did the angel announcing his birth refer to him? Compare Ps 83:18, where it says that Jehovah alone is the Most High.)
LUKE 1:34
“For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.”MATTHEW 3:17
“Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”” (Who does Jehovah God’s testimony tell us Jesus is?)JOHN 1:34
“And I have seen [it], and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.””
(What did John the Baptist bear witness to regarding Jesus?)JOHN 1:49
“Nathańael answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.”” (How did Nathanael identify Jesus?)MATTHEW 16:16
“In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.””
(Jesus himself asked who they thought he was. With this response of Peter, Jesus pronounced him happy, because his Father had revealed this to him.)JOHN 11:27
“She [Martha] said to him: “Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God.”” (What did Martha believe about Jesus?)JOHN 20:31
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.” (Why did John write what he did? What did he want us to believe?)JOHN 1:34
“I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.” (Did John bear witness that Jesus was God Almighty, or God’s Son?)1 JOHN 4:15
“Whoever makes the confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God . . .” (According to John, if we are to remain in union with God, what must confess?)1 JOHN 5:5
“Who is the one that conquers the world but he who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?” (According to John, what must we have faith in–that Jesus is God, or the “Son of” God?)
(It seems that John bore witness that Jesus was the “Son of” God, that he wrote what he did so that we would believe that Jesus was the “Son of” God, telling us to have faith that Jesus is the “Son of” God, and to confess that Jesus is the “Son of” God.)ACTS 9:20
“he [Peter] began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God.” (What did the apostle Peter preach about Jesus?)MARK 1:24
“What have we to do with you, Jesus you Nazarené? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.” (The demons certainly knew “exactly” who Jesus was: the Holy One “of” God, and hence, not God Almighty himself.)
MATTHEW 8:29
“What have we to do with you, Son of God?”
MARK 3:11
“Even the unclean spirits, whenever they would behold him, would prostrate themselves before him and cry out, saying: “You are the Son of God.”“
LUKE 4:41
“Demons also would come out of many, crying out and saying: “You are the Son of God.”JOHN 5:18
“On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also CALLING GOD HIS OWN FATHER, making himself equal to God.” (He was not saying that he was equal to God, but rather “he was also calling God his own Father,” and in the minds of the Jews, this was tantamount to making himself equal with God.*****************)
MATTHEW 26:63
“So the high priest said to him: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!”“ (What did the chief priest charge Jesus as saying he was? Surely if there was indication that he was claiming to be God or those around him believed this, then that accusation would have been made. These were the ones who were accusing them of anything they could, making stuff up. Surely if he was claiming to be God himself, they would have capitalized on this.)
LUKE 22:70
“Are you, therefore, the Son of God?”
MATTHEW 27:43
“let Him [God] now rescue him if He wants him, for he said, ‘I am God’s Son.’”
JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.”” (What did the Jews tell Pilate Jesus had made himself? If Jesus was claiming to be God, surely they who wanted him done away with would have charged him with this.)
MARK 14:61,62
“Again the high priest began to question him and said to him:
“Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said: “I am.” (So they were charging him with saying he was the “Son of” the God, and Jesus himself said: “I am.”)JOHN 10:36
“do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?” (Who did Jesus himself say he was?)MATTHEW 14:33
“Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You are really God’s Son.””
(Miraculously walking on water and calming the winds moved his disciples to what conclusion?)MATTHEW 27:40
“If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake!” (How did those mocking him while he was dying refer to him?)MATTHEW 27:54
“when they saw the earthquake and the things happening, grew very much afraid, saying: “Certainly this was God’s Son.”“ (What conclusion did the army officer there at Jesus death reach?)
MARK 15:39
“Now, when the army officer that was standing by with him in view saw he had expired under these circumstances, he said: “Certainly this man was God’s Son.””ROMANS 1:4
“but who with power was declared God’s Son.” (What was Jesus declared to be?)So we have an angel, demons, Jehovah, Jesus, John the Baptist, Nathanael, Peter, Martha, John, Paul, mockers of Jesus, an army officer who saw Jesus die, the Jews, all making very plain what they believed Jesus to be, the “Son of” God, or “God’s Son,” and hence, not God, but someone related to God, the “Son of” God.
Everyone believed he was the son of God, meaning the son of God Almighty and therefore not Jehovah God.
He is sometimes called “God” but then, so are the angels, Moses, Israelite judges, etc.
It means he was a “mighty one,” and certainly if these others could be called “gods” clearly he could rightly be called “God.” But this doesn't mean he's the God of the Bible, Jehovah. It means he is a mighty one, strong one, powerful one, etc, as the word “god” implies.david
Wait! Before you guys move on too quickly, I have a question: Jesus called the Father his God – but only the “man” part of Jesus was calling the Father – God? So, in other words, the “fully God” part of Jesus did not call the Father God? Can Jesus talk out of both sides of his mouth? How does this work, Tim? Seriously. I've never understood this.
Jesus is equal to the Father concerning his Godhead, but inferior to the Father concerning His manhood.
****************
This was Tims quote that I was questioning. Thanks.Quote Tim2, men wouldn't believe in the Trinity doctrine if they understood the difference between nature and identity. In identity, the Most High God is exclusively the Father.
In nature and authority there are many gods.You make the classic mistake of taking any mention of the word “God” and think it is the Most High. But both 'theos' and 'elohim' are also applied to men, angels, idols, and the Devil.
God is a title only and can and is applied to many.
If you insist that the word 'God' is always the Most High, then to be fair, you have to admit that men and angels are too.
But the Most High God is even the God of Jesus Christ.
Jesus is called the son of God for a reason. The son of God is not a meaningless title.
Thankyou T8. Can we please look more at the fact that some are called “god” in scripture and what this means.
You make the classic mistake of taking any mention of the word “God” and think it is the Most High.
Yes, too right. If you check dictionaries, it seems that the word “god” in English dictionaries has one meaning: “The Most High, the Father, Jehovah.” Yet, this clearly isn't what the word Elohim means.
Words do tend to change over time. This is why the KJV is somewhat confusing. The word “God” didn't ever mean “Jehovah” but since he is the prime one that the word is applied to, it has come to take on that meaning.
Yet, that IS NOT what the word “elohim” means.
Quote (Tim2 @ April 11 2007,16:04) Hi t8, I believe Scriptures that say Jesus came from God. I believe this means He came out of God (I understand that to be the literal meaning of “ek”). That's what it means for Jesus to be the Son. It means He was begotten out of the Father before all ages.
I believe that the Father is the only true God. I also believe that the Son and the Spirit are also the only true God. John 17:3 doesn't say, “only the Father is the true God.” Again, if you give up your assumption that God is one person, you will see this is consistent.
t8, do you believe that the so-called gods have the same nature as the Father? Does anyone else have the same nature as the Father? I know Scripture applies the word god to other beings, but it is always careful to distinguish them as idols, angels, judges. In general, God means YHWH. And YWHW is emphatic that there is no god beside Him, and that we cannot have any gods beside Him. If you believe Jesus is another god, then you are violating the first commandment, and I urge you to repent.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
So the Son was begotten from God in the beginning?
Or do you think the begettal never quite finished happening and he remained part of God?Hi Not3in1,
Jesus speaks as one person. My point is that Jesus in his manhood is inferior to the Father. The fact that Jesus calls the Father His God does not mean that Jesus isn't also God or that Jesus is eternally inferior to the Father. Jesus is our priest and mediator with God, and as such, it is proper for Him in His representation of His brethren before the Father to call the Father His God.
Tim
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