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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2007,18:03) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2007,23:58) Hi All: I asked God in prayer why the word Elohim is used for him, and He has shown me that it is because, He is the God of gods and the Lord of lords. (De. 10:17)
Ephesians 4:6 states that there is, “One God and Father of all, WHO IS ABOVE ALL…”
Those who are called gods such Moses, of whom it was said by God that he would be as god to Pharaoh, or the judges of the nation of Israel and even Jesus are subjected to Him. As Ephesians 4:6 He is ABOVE ALL. He is the supreme authority over all of his creation. But he may vest whomsoever he pleases with authority as his spokesman.
When Jesus was accused by the Pharisees “that thou being a man, makest thyself God” (John 10:34), Jesus replies, “Is it not written in your law, I said , ye are gods? If he called them gods, UNTO WHOM THE WORD OF GOD CAME, and the scripture cannot be broken: say he of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, thou blasphemest; because I said, I AM THE SON OF GOD? (John 10:34-36) Plain and simple he said: “I AM THE SON OF GOD”. Those that are called gods to whom he refers are those TO WHOM THE WORD OF GOD CAME. He refers here to Psalm 82.
Jesus is indeed God in that he is the express image of God's person. (Hebrews 1:3) God (Who is above all) says, “But to the Son he saith, thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Why?) (God proceeds to answer this.) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore GOD EVEN THY GOD HATH ANOINTED THEE WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE THY FELLOWS”. And so, we see that God exalted him to the position that he has as head of the church, and He is worthy of this position and of all praise, honour and glory. And without him, we would still be in our sins.
When you teach that he is God because you feel that unless he is we will be violating the First Commandment, you are actually creating a circumstance that is just the opposite of what you intend because Jesus is a man and not God in the sense that you want to say. It was God has exalted him to position of authority over the church. When we obey him we are obeying God. He is not teaching his own thoughts. He obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, and he was declared to be the Son of God with power according to spirit of holiness by the resurrection from the dead. (Phil. 2:8-10, Rom. 1:4) Hebrews 5:8-9 states of Jesus: “Though he were a Son, yet he learned obedience by the things that he suffered: and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal life unto all them that obey him”.
Satan is called the god of this world to those who obey him. “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the 'god of this world' hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, WHO IS THE IMAGE OF GOD, should shine unto them”. (2 Co. 4:3-4)
God Bless
94I ask that you reread my post.
If Jesus is God and not the true God. Then you have Polytheism.
One true God means One God who is true.
Jesus came and brought a New Covenant. The law of agency has run its course.
We have One mediator now and it is God Himself.
Check for your self.
1336 times the word “Theos” is found in the New Testament scriptures.
All were translated “God” referring to the Father and Yeshua, exept 13 times for “False gods” including satan and the man of sin and man, and eight times Godly.
I checked them all. Not once out of all 1336 times is there a mention of any Angel of God with the word “Theos”.
Neither is there any example of the word “Theos” ascribed to a living man or king or lord of the most high in that day other than Yeshua.
Isa 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:Blessings
Hi WJ:In my post that you quote, I have shown in what sense Jesus is God.
But as for the mediator that he is the scripture states: “For there is ONE GOD and one mediator between God and men, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS”. (1 Ti 2:5)
God Bless
Quote (Tim2 @ April 07 2007,08:45) Hi Nick, And if you deny that Jesus is God, then you deny the truth and are not saved.
Tim
Hi Tim2:I thought I had responded to you relative to this matter but I cannot find my post, And so if I posted this twice, it is because I could not find it.
You are quite bold in this statement that “unless you believe that Jesus is God you are not saved”. Are you sure of this? I have quoted some scriptures below which seem to indicate differently.
John 3:16-18 states: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned:…”.
Romans 10:8-9 states: “But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him form the dead, thou shalt be saved”.
Romans 8:1 states: “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit”.
“If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life”. (1 John 5:9-12)
“Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God”. (1 John 5:13-15)
I don't believe in the “Trinity” but I know that my Father dwells in me by his Spirit, and so you will never be able to convince me that I am not saved, but I just want to caution you, out of my love for you, to be careful that you do not mislead any one by telling them that unless they believe your doctrine they won't be saved. I have quoted some scriptures that came from God relative to salvation. Maybe you weren't aware of these?
My desire is God's very best for you and your family.
Quote If he is the “Only True God” then stop calling other beings God which are no Gods at all! WJ, why don't you go back in time and tell the Bible writers not to do this either.
Clearly there is something deeply wrong with your thinking.
You seem to be completely unaware of what the word “god” actually means or how it is used in the entire Bible.
Please, go back and tell the Bible writers they were wrong too.
Actually, it's God's inspired word. Why don't you tell God he was wrong.
Please try to have a less narrow less biased view of that word and at least attempt to understand how it is used in the Bible.If we don't know what the word “god” means then we don't know what it means when it says that Jesus is God.
No one seems to want to touch the question of what that word means except for Tim2 who keeps repeating that “God” means YHWH which of course it doesn't. Substitute “YHWH” in every instance where the word “God” is and a lot of things will simply be wrong. Those words are not interchangeable. (The KJV did substitue “LORD” or “GOD” for most of the instances where “Jehovah” occurs, because Jehovah is God. But you can't take the word “god” or “God” wherever it occurs and substitue “Jehovah” because THAT WORD HAS A WIDER BIGGER MEANING than “Jehovah.” We know this because it is applied to ones that clearly aren't Jehovah.)
Moses, for example, because of the situation that existed was called the God of Pharoah and also the God of Aaron.
Did this mean that Moses was Jehovah? No, because the word God doesn't mean Jehovah.So what does it mean, in this case, and in every case?
David
Quote Cult Buster, certainly nowhere is “Jesus” or “Christ” specifically called “Almighty.”
I have already explained this to you in the Alpha and Omega thread, where you refuse to discuss this EXACT subject with me. So your words are meaningless if you can't actually communicate with people.You tell lies again David. I was discussing with you and then you ran away.
David, try reading my posts. Perhaps you will “see”. Perhaps you never will.
David
Quote Is Jesus a mighty one? Without question.
Is Jehovah, the Almighty a mighty one? Yes, but since he alone (the Father/Jehovah) is ever specifically described as “Almighty” he alone can be called the only true mighty one, the only true God.Jesus is referred to in scripture as Almighty God as well as The Mighty God.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
David, open your eyes and look!
Jesus The King of Kings and Lord of Lords is the Almighty God
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;The Word of God described in verse 13 is Jesus because
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,Jesus is described here as KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS ,The Word of God, Almighty God, and the great God
The following verse confirms that Jesus (the Lamb of God) is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Let us now look more closely at Rev 19:15.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Who is this Almighty God who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron?
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron
It’s JESUS!……the Almighty God!
All these verses are obviously speaking of the same Person our Lord and God Jesus Christ.
Look at all of His titles.the Lamb, the Word, The Word of God, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS, Lord of lords, and King of kings, Almighty God, and the great God,
Jesus Christ is our Almighty Jehovah God.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Hi WorshippingJesus.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2007,23:55) Paul declares Yet for us there is but *ONE GOD*.
Make that one God, the Father.1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.This same God made Jesus, Lord and Christ.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”This is what I believe and teach, so for that reason, I stay away from the Trinity doctrine and the creeds. They teach that there is one God, the Father, Son and Spirit. And this doctrine and creeds also say that Jesus has always been Lord and then followers of these man made teachings take it one step further and say that because Jesus is Lord, then he is also LORD (YHWH) of the Old Testament.
Even further still, some even say (not you WorshippingJesus) that Jesus mother was the mother of God.
It is very sad, but when you build on another foundation the works will fall down and the works become increasing absurd as witnessed by history and the creeds.
WJ writes (speaking of Jesus)….
Please give him the honour due him as God.Its really sad that you have let men decieve you into accepting another Jesus other than the one you first recieved.
***************************I WILL NOT CALL JESUS GOD! I will only give that honor to my Father, who is God Almighty! For this command is written in scripture! No where it is written to give this honor to any one else! My God is a jealous God, and will not share his glory with another! Even Jesus said he does not seek glory BUT THERE IS ONE WHO DOES! My Father, the Creator, is due this honor.
As a command, I will also honor the Son, to bring glory to the Father. This I do wholeheartedly, and with great joy! But I will only confess what is written – Jesus is the Son of the living God. And no amount of bullying from you or Tim2 will drive me to do otherwise.
If I see in scripture that I am not saved unless I confess the Trinity, then I will confess it. If I see in scripture that I am not saved unless I confess that Jesus is God Almighty, then I will confess it.
It is obvious from this board, and the discussion of the scriptures involved with these proofs, that there are no such scriptures in the Bible. Not that are this clear and commanding. And if it is not clear, and a commandment……I will not do it.
WJ, do you really think that the “Jesus” that the disciples “accepted” was the “second person in the Godhead?” Can you show me in scripture where the disciples are clear on this teaching? Where, O where, did the disciples confess that Jesus was God? WHERE?
Besides the so-called proof of Thomas' confession. AND THOMAS WAS A DOUBTER! I know Tim2 loves to be connected to Thomas. I wouldn't be so proud to be connected to a doubter. Even Jesus said that it was better to believe without seeing…..
Hi Not3in1,
With regard to giving honor, John 5:23 says, “that all will honor the Son as they honor the Father.”
It's clear that the honor you give to Jesus is less than the honor you give to the Father, so I think you're violating this command.
Also, if the Father is the only God, doesn't this God say He won't share his glory with another (Isaiah 42:8). But Jesus prays for the Father to “glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with You before the world was.”
Tim
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 10 2007,07:09) Besides the so-called proof of Thomas' confession. AND THOMAS WAS A DOUBTER! I know Tim2 loves to be connected to Thomas. I wouldn't be so proud to be connected to a doubter. Even Jesus said that it was better to believe without seeing…..
Hi Not 3in1,So which of the disciples is your role model?
Peter denied Jesus three times.
Paul persecuted the church and was the foremost of sinners.
All the other apostles left Jesus and fled after he was betrayed.I suggest that you follow all of the apostles because of Christ's merit, not their own, and because of His command to do so (Matthew 10:40, Luke 10:16).
Tim
Tim2 writes:
I suggest that you follow all of the apostles because of Christ's merit, not their own, and because of His command to do so (Matthew 10:40, Luke 10:16).
****************************************Yes, Tim2, good points. Good correction. I don't have a favorite disciple. Most would say they relate with Peter because he denied Christ. Some say they relate with Paul because he appears to be the most passionate about spreading the good news. To be honest, I relate with Mary (the whore). Not because I'm a prostitute, but because I have been forgiven much – that is why I love much! Thanks for the correction.
Regarding the “glory” of Jesus and God —– I believe they are two separate glories. Jesus has glory as the only begotten Son. God has glory as Creator, and will not share it with another. I once did a study on this. I'll have to find my notes.
Quote (Tim2 @ April 10 2007,07:41) Hi Not3in1, With regard to giving honor, John 5:23 says, “that all will honor the Son as they honor the Father.”
It's clear that the honor you give to Jesus is less than the honor you give to the Father, so I think you're violating this command.
Also, if the Father is the only God, doesn't this God say He won't share his glory with another (Isaiah 42:8). But Jesus prays for the Father to “glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with You before the world was.”
Tim
Hi Tim2,
The prophets were abused and murdered.
They were not God.
They should have been honoured as representatives of God.
Even more so the only begotten Son of God.Matt 21
” 34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?”
Mk 12
” 2″At the harvest time he sent a slave to the vine-growers, in order to receive some of the produce of the vineyard from the vine-growers.3″They took him, and beat him and sent him away empty-handed.
4″Again he sent them another slave, and they wounded him in the head, and treated him shamefully.
5″And he sent another, and that one they killed; and so with many others, beating some and killing others.
6″He had one more to send, a beloved son; he sent him last of all to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'
7″But those vine-growers said to one another, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours!'
8″They took him, and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard.
9″What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. “
Lk 20
” 9(A)And He began to tell the people this parable: “A man planted a vineyard and rented it out to vine-growers, and went on a journey for a long time.
10″At the harvest time he sent a slave to the vine-growers, so that they would give him some of the produce of the vineyard; but the vine-growers beat him and sent him away empty-handed.11″And he proceeded to send another slave; and they beat him also and treated him shamefully and sent him away empty-handed.
12″And he proceeded to send a third; and this one also they wounded and cast out.
13″The owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; perhaps they will (B)respect him.'
14″But when the vine-growers saw him, they reasoned with one another, saying, 'This is the heir; let us kill him so that the inheritance will be ours.'
15″So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What, then, will the owner of the vineyard do to them?”
None of the messengers are also the One Who sent them.
Nick,
The son of the lord of the vineyard is a man, right? He has the same nature as the father, right?
Tim
Hi Tim 2,
Is God a man?
The nature of the Owner of the vineyard is not shown but if His son is the same nature as He is then so are the messenger prophets.Hi Nick,
Is God a man? Yes, his name is Jesus.
So, in general, you don't believe that sons have the same natures as their fathers?
Tim
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