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Quote (david @ April 05 2007,21:53) There is a distinction between the Father, our God, and Jesus, who is called our Lord in 1 Cor 8, as Nick points out.
We notice that it's never the other way around. Jesus is never the God of Jehovah, but repeatedly, we're told that Jesus has a God, his Father.
Should we not worship the God of Jesus?
Should we not worship whom Jesus indicated we should worship?
DavidYou say…
Quote There is a distinction between the Father, our God, and Jesus, who is called our Lord in 1 Cor 8, as Nick points out.
We notice that it's never the other way around. Jesus is never the God of Jehovah, but repeatedly, we're told that Jesus has a God, his Father.Thats because the Father didnt become a man.
but the Word/God the Lord from heaven did!
Quote (david @ April 05 2007,21:43) Quote Excellent! –Is 1:18
Ummm. Not really. It didn't address any of my questions and didn't look at the word “god” as it is used as a whole. It left many things unanswered.
DavidReally!
Then why dont you show me line by line where my exegesis is wrong!
Hi All:
I asked God in prayer why the word Elohim is used for him, and He has shown me that it is because, He is the God of gods and the Lord of lords. (De. 10:17)
Ephesians 4:6 states that there is, “One God and Father of all, WHO IS ABOVE ALL…”
Those who are called gods such Moses, of whom it was said by God that he would be as god to Pharaoh, or the judges of the nation of Israel and even Jesus are subjected to Him. As Ephesians 4:6 He is ABOVE ALL. He is the supreme authority over all of his creation. But he may vest whomsoever he pleases with authority as his spokesman.
When Jesus was accused by the Pharisees “that thou being a man, makest thyself God” (John 10:34), Jesus replies, “Is it not written in your law, I said , ye are gods? If he called them gods, UNTO WHOM THE WORD OF GOD CAME, and the scripture cannot be broken: say he of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, thou blasphemest; because I said, I AM THE SON OF GOD? (John 10:34-36) Plain and simple he said: “I AM THE SON OF GOD”. Those that are called gods to whom he refers are those TO WHOM THE WORD OF GOD CAME. He refers here to Psalm 82.
Jesus is indeed God in that he is the express image of God's person. (Hebrews 1:3) God (Who is above all) says, “But to the Son he saith, thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Why?) (God proceeds to answer this.) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore GOD EVEN THY GOD HATH ANOINTED THEE WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE THY FELLOWS”. And so, we see that God exalted him to the position that he has as head of the church, and He is worthy of this position and of all praise, honour and glory. And without him, we would still be in our sins.
When you teach that he is God because you feel that unless he is we will be violating the First Commandment, you are actually creating a circumstance that is just the opposite of what you intend because Jesus is a man and not God in the sense that you want to say. It was God has exalted him to position of authority over the church. When we obey him we are obeying God. He is not teaching his own thoughts. He obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, and he was declared to be the Son of God with power according to spirit of holiness by the resurrection from the dead. (Phil. 2:8-10, Rom. 1:4) Hebrews 5:8-9 states of Jesus: “Though he were a Son, yet he learned obedience by the things that he suffered: and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal life unto all them that obey him”.
Satan is called the god of this world to those who obey him. “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the 'god of this world' hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, WHO IS THE IMAGE OF GOD, should shine unto them”. (2 Co. 4:3-4)
God Bless
Hi 94,
Deut 10
'17For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: “Shhhhh
don't tell everyone there are other beings called gods.Hi Nick,
Please remind everyone else that we cannot have these other gods before YHWH. Why then, if Jesus is not YHWH, does He come before YHWH for you (quite literally, for no one comes to the Father but through Him)?
Tim
WJ writes:
Thats because the Father didnt become a man.
***********************You can't have it both ways, WJ. This is the part of the Trinitarian belief system that frustrates me the most. Because the beliefs are so varied, you can change your doctrine to suit you. Look, according to the Trinity, Jesus is God. Right? Either he is, or he isn't. Sometimes you want Jesus to be “fully God.” But when there comes a point in scripture where it doesn't suit you – like Jesus dying – and you know God cannot die – then all of a sudden……………..God didn't become a man. Hog wash, I say! Double talk, I say!
Which is it? Is Jesus a man? Or is Jesus fully God? Which one do you pick? If Jesus is man, then he can die. If Jesus is fully God, then he cannot. Either way, your teaching is at risk of contradicting itself.
Hi not3,
It is all smoke and mirrors.
Now you see it and now you don't.
1800 years has enabled a lot of polishing of the old trinity two step.
It would be so good if we could put it back on the shelf to gather dust
but it's adherents are as convinced as ever.
Ah well.Quote (942767 @ April 05 2007,23:58) Hi All: I asked God in prayer why the word Elohim is used for him, and He has shown me that it is because, He is the God of gods and the Lord of lords. (De. 10:17)
Ephesians 4:6 states that there is, “One God and Father of all, WHO IS ABOVE ALL…”
Those who are called gods such Moses, of whom it was said by God that he would be as god to Pharaoh, or the judges of the nation of Israel and even Jesus are subjected to Him. As Ephesians 4:6 He is ABOVE ALL. He is the supreme authority over all of his creation. But he may vest whomsoever he pleases with authority as his spokesman.
When Jesus was accused by the Pharisees “that thou being a man, makest thyself God” (John 10:34), Jesus replies, “Is it not written in your law, I said , ye are gods? If he called them gods, UNTO WHOM THE WORD OF GOD CAME, and the scripture cannot be broken: say he of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, thou blasphemest; because I said, I AM THE SON OF GOD? (John 10:34-36) Plain and simple he said: “I AM THE SON OF GOD”. Those that are called gods to whom he refers are those TO WHOM THE WORD OF GOD CAME. He refers here to Psalm 82.
Jesus is indeed God in that he is the express image of God's person. (Hebrews 1:3) God (Who is above all) says, “But to the Son he saith, thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Why?) (God proceeds to answer this.) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore GOD EVEN THY GOD HATH ANOINTED THEE WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE THY FELLOWS”. And so, we see that God exalted him to the position that he has as head of the church, and He is worthy of this position and of all praise, honour and glory. And without him, we would still be in our sins.
When you teach that he is God because you feel that unless he is we will be violating the First Commandment, you are actually creating a circumstance that is just the opposite of what you intend because Jesus is a man and not God in the sense that you want to say. It was God has exalted him to position of authority over the church. When we obey him we are obeying God. He is not teaching his own thoughts. He obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, and he was declared to be the Son of God with power according to spirit of holiness by the resurrection from the dead. (Phil. 2:8-10, Rom. 1:4) Hebrews 5:8-9 states of Jesus: “Though he were a Son, yet he learned obedience by the things that he suffered: and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal life unto all them that obey him”.
Satan is called the god of this world to those who obey him. “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the 'god of this world' hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, WHO IS THE IMAGE OF GOD, should shine unto them”. (2 Co. 4:3-4)
God Bless
94I ask that you reread my post.
If Jesus is God and not the true God. Then you have Polytheism.
One true God means One God who is true.
Jesus came and brought a New Covenant. The law of agency has run its course.
We have One mediator now and it is God Himself.
Check for your self.
1336 times the word “Theos” is found in the New Testament scriptures.
All were translated “God” referring to the Father and Yeshua, exept 13 times for “False gods” including satan and the man of sin and man, and eight times Godly.
I checked them all. Not once out of all 1336 times is there a mention of any Angel of God with the word “Theos”.
Neither is there any example of the word “Theos” ascribed to a living man or king or lord of the most high in that day other than Yeshua.
Isa 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:Blessings
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 06 2007,05:56) WJ writes:
Thats because the Father didnt become a man.
***********************You can't have it both ways, WJ. This is the part of the Trinitarian belief system that frustrates me the most. Because the beliefs are so varied, you can change your doctrine to suit you. Look, according to the Trinity, Jesus is God. Right? Either he is, or he isn't. Sometimes you want Jesus to be “fully God.” But when there comes a point in scripture where it doesn't suit you – like Jesus dying – and you know God cannot die – then all of a sudden……………..God didn't become a man. Hog wash, I say! Double talk, I say!
Which is it? Is Jesus a man? Or is Jesus fully God? Which one do you pick? If Jesus is man, then he can die. If Jesus is fully God, then he cannot. Either way, your teaching is at risk of contradicting itself.
not3in1Either you do not listen to what a Trinitarian believes or you simply dont understand.
ONE GOD “THREE PERSONS” ONE SPIRIT!
The person of the Father did not take on the likeness of sinfull flesh, the Word God did.
The Father did not become the born Son.
That is Modalism.
I am sorry if that dosnt fit into your logic, but it is the truth found in the scriptures.
Blessings
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 06 2007,05:56) WJ writes:
Thats because the Father didnt become a man.
***********************You can't have it both ways, WJ. This is the part of the Trinitarian belief system that frustrates me the most. Because the beliefs are so varied, you can change your doctrine to suit you. Look, according to the Trinity, Jesus is God. Right? Either he is, or he isn't. Sometimes you want Jesus to be “fully God.” But when there comes a point in scripture where it doesn't suit you – like Jesus dying – and you know God cannot die – then all of a sudden……………..God didn't become a man. Hog wash, I say! Double talk, I say!
Which is it? Is Jesus a man? Or is Jesus fully God? Which one do you pick? If Jesus is man, then he can die. If Jesus is fully God, then he cannot. Either way, your teaching is at risk of contradicting itself.
Not3in1,Trinitarians hold that God did die. Jesus is God. He died. If you deny this, you deny the power of the cross. Acts 20:28.
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ April 06 2007,07:25) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 06 2007,05:56) WJ writes:
Thats because the Father didnt become a man.
***********************You can't have it both ways, WJ. This is the part of the Trinitarian belief system that frustrates me the most. Because the beliefs are so varied, you can change your doctrine to suit you. Look, according to the Trinity, Jesus is God. Right? Either he is, or he isn't. Sometimes you want Jesus to be “fully God.” But when there comes a point in scripture where it doesn't suit you – like Jesus dying – and you know God cannot die – then all of a sudden……………..God didn't become a man. Hog wash, I say! Double talk, I say!
Which is it? Is Jesus a man? Or is Jesus fully God? Which one do you pick? If Jesus is man, then he can die. If Jesus is fully God, then he cannot. Either way, your teaching is at risk of contradicting itself.
Not3in1,Trinitarians hold that God did die. Jesus is God. He died. If you deny this, you deny the power of the cross. Acts 20:28.
Tim
Hi Tim 2,
God died??God is not a man that can die.
1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.David
Quote Is Jesus a mighty one? Without question.
Is Jehovah, the Almighty a mighty one? Yes, but since he alone (the Father/Jehovah) is ever specifically described as “Almighty” he alone can be called the only true mighty one, the only true God.Jesus is referred to in scripture as Almighty God.
Its time for a Bible study!
Jesus The King of Kings and Lord of Lords is the Almighty God
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;The Word of God described in verse 13 is Jesus because
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,Jesus is described here as KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS ,The Word of God, Almighty God, and the great God
The following verse confirms that Jesus (the Lamb of God) is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Let us now look more closely at Rev 19:15.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Who is this Almighty God who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron?
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron
It’s JESUS!……the Almighty God!
All these verses are obviously speaking of the same Person our Lord and God Jesus Christ.
Look at all of His titles.the Lamb, the Word, The Word of God, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS, Lord of lords, and King of kings, Almighty God, and the great God,
Jesus Christ is our Almighty Jehovah God.
HELLO, GUYS. FOCUS!
This has just turned into one of the other 14 trinity threads where everyone discusses whatever they like about the trinity.
The theme of this thread, which isn't really discussed elsewhere, and therefore actually deserving of our attention is: Elohim, what does it mean?
Secondarily, I asked what it means that others are called gods, such as the angels.Please, can we have a little focus. (It's just that there is already a tread on the “trinity” where most of these comments can and have been discussed.)
Quote Jesus is referred to in scripture as Almighty God. Cult Buster, certainly nowhere is “Jesus” or “Christ” specifically called “Almighty.”
I have already explained this to you in the Alpha and Omega thread, where you refuse to discuss this EXACT subject with me. So your words are meaningless if you can't actually communicate with people.Instead of trying to sidetrack the questions that everyone seems to want to avoid, can you please try to answer my questions?
If not, please go back to the trinity thread or the Alpha/Omega thread and post your “Alpha and Omega” theories in that one for the 57th time.
david.
Hi Tim2,
You are on your own here.
Your fellow trinity believers are in shock that someone has finally admitted that the result of the trinity theory is that immortal God dies.
But if that is the latest evolutionary step, the most recent edict from Rome, who are they to argue?David,
Elohim is YHWH. YHWH is the only Elohim.
Nick,
Maybe it is shocking to consider that God died for us. But this was foretold before the birth of Christ. YHWH is the one who said, “They will look on me whom they have pierced.” Zechariah 12:10. And this is the testimony of the apostles concerning “the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.” Acts 20:28.
Tim
Happy is the nation whose God is Jehovah,–Ps 33:12; 144:15
These are the only two places in the Bible were it says: “Elohim is YHWH” as you state.
Jehovah is God. God is a descriptive word. It can be applied to angels, Satan, Moses, judges, etc.
Jehovah is God, is true, obviously, because the word fits. In fact, it fits in a way that it fits no one else.
Statements in the Bible:
Jehovah God–50 times
the [true] God Jehovah–4 times
Jehovah their God–39 times
Jehovah the [true] God–8 times.
Jehovah is in truth God–1 time
Jehovah is God–1 time
Jehovah is my God–1 time
Jehovah is our God–1 time
Jehovah your God–455 times
Jehovah our God–105 times
Jehovah my God–40 times
Jehovah his God–29 times
Jehovah is a God–7 times
Jehovah the God of–204 times
Jehovah a God–1 timeBut “Elohim is YHWH” or God is Jehovah is nowhere found in the Bible other than those two verses I mentioned first:
Happy is the nation whose God is Jehovah,–Ps 33:12; 144:15
Anyway, the point from this and the Bible is that “God” and “Jehovah” are not interchangable words. Jehovah is a personal name. God is a descriptive word that applies to him and is applied to others.
dave
Dave,
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. So, yes, Dave, Elohim is interchangeable with YHWH. The whole point of the Bible is that there is no Elohim besides YHWH.
Tim
Quote Elohim is interchangeable with YHWH. Tim is a human. Therfore, I can use the word “human” and everyone will know I'm talking to you.
Oh, but wait. In the Bible, the word “god” is used of many different ones.Satan is the god of this world.
Satan is the YHWH of this world.??
Nope. They aren't interchangeable.“God” is a descriptive word. It descibes something about Jehovah and about the angels and Jesus and mOses in relation to pharoah, and the Isrealeite Judges in relation to the isrealites, etc.
“Jehovah” is a name.
While the word God certainly applies to every instance of the use of Jehovah, “Jehovah” doesn't apply to every instance were we find the word “god.”
Therefore, not interchangealbe.Quote he whole point of the Bible is that there is no Elohim besides YHWH.
Compared to Jehovah, there is no God. He is the only true God.
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