Genesis 3:4-5

[acertainchap]

– New King James Version –

Genesis 3: 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

*Was this merely a lie from the devil in him saying that God knows both good and evil?

It states here that God knows good and evil? I know that God's nature is of love, but also of judgement. Does verse 5 mean that God is both good and evil (which I doubt) or is it just saying that he had knowledge of both of these ideals: good and evil, from the beginning? Verse 5 indicates that God knows both good and evil, but in what way? Help on understanding this would be much appreciated.

[kejonn]

Here's an interesting verse for you ACC and most translations try to change the word because they don't like what it says

Isa 45:7 (KJV)  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isa 45:7 (LXX)  I am he that prepared light, and formed darkness; who make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord God, that does all these things.

Isa 45:7 (JPS 1917)  I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

Many other modern translations change “evil” to either “calamity”, “disaster”, or “woe” because they don't like the Hebrew word “ra” being “evil” here. However they do the Word of God injustice by doing so because these same translations render “ra” as “evil” in other places. For instance, the NASB and ESV translate Is 45:7 as saying “calamity” but in Gen 3:5 they have “ra” correctly rendered as “evil”.  Why change it?

[acertainchap]

Thank you for those verses, kejonn. And you are right, why change it? What are your thoughts on Genesis 3: 4-5 ?

[kejonn]

ACC,

My thoughts are that man has been given free will. The concept of total free will would be absent outside of the knowledge of good and evil. Therefore, to choose good over evil is our way of growing closer to our Creator God.

This was the very first instance of man disobeying God and this idea is extended throughout the Tanach (Old Testament). God only gave Adam and Eve one rule and they broke it. It gives us the very first example of there being consequences for disobedience. In this case it came in the form of expulsion from the Garden. The “death” that came from this was a separation from a perfect relationship with God and access to Eden.

[kenrch]

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

Rev 22:14 Happy are those who wash their robes clean and so have the right to eat the fruit from the tree of life and to go through the gates into the city.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.

Do you think these people care what the bible says?

Rev 22:18 I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.

[acertainchap]

Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 14 2007,02:16)

Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev 22:14  Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Rev 22:14  Happy are those who wash their robes clean and so have the right to eat the fruit from the tree of life and to go through the gates into the city. Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. Do you think these people care what the bible says? Rev 22:18  I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book: Rev 22:19  and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.

You say these people. What people are you talking about?

[TimothyVI]

Of course God knows both good and evil.
As Kejohn pointed out, God created both good and evil.
Also Gen. 1 in the Hebrew text says that God is creating man in His image, not created as the KJV says. In other words it is an ongoing process in which man must learn things like the difference between good and evil.

Without darkness, how could man know what light was?
Without bitter, how could you know what sweet was?
Without evil, how would you know what good was?

All knowledge is a comparison of one thing to another.

God gave the snake permission to tempt Eve, just like He gave satan permission to torment Job.
God also knew before hand that Eve would fail the test as well as Adam. This is how God continues to be creating
man in His image.

Tim

[acertainchap]

Oh I see. Thank you Tim.

[Towshab]

Quote (acertainchap @ Nov. 13 2007,07:56)

– New King James Version – Genesis 3: 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” *Was this merely a lie from the devil in him saying that God knows both good and evil? It states here that God knows good and evil? I know that God's nature is of love, but also of judgement. Does verse 5 mean that God is both good and evil (which I doubt) or is it just saying that he had knowledge of both of these ideals: good and evil, from the beginning? Verse 5 indicates that God knows both good and evil, but in what way? Help on understanding this would be much appreciated.

Chap,

The idea that the serpent was the devil is a Christian one. Where do you see the words 'satan' or 'devil' in Gen 3? Please read scripture as it is written. Some others here have given you good words. G-d is in control of all both good and evil. Christians don't want to accept that but its evident in the Jewish bible!

[Morningstar]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 14 2007,13:09)

Quote (acertainchap @ Nov. 13 2007,07:56) – New King James Version – Genesis 3: 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” *Was this merely a lie from the devil in him saying that God knows both good and evil? It states here that God knows good and evil? I know that God's nature is of love, but also of judgement. Does verse 5 mean that God is both good and evil (which I doubt) or is it just saying that he had knowledge of both of these ideals: good and evil, from the beginning? Verse 5 indicates that God knows both good and evil, but in what way? Help on understanding this would be much appreciated. Chap, The idea that the serpent was the devil is a Christian one. Where do you see the words 'satan' or 'devil' in Gen 3? Please read scripture as it is written. Some others here have given you good words. G-d is in control of all both good and evil. Christians don't want to accept that but its evident in the Jewish bible!

I am going to follow T8s example, Towshab,

The idea of the serpent being an evil god comes from ancient sumeria. Enki or Ea

the idea of the serpent being a deceiving god like being is far more ancient than the bible.

it is not a Christian idea that was just invented.

[Towshab]

Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 13 2007,21:12)

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 14 2007,13:09) Quote (acertainchap @ Nov. 13 2007,07:56) – New King James Version – Genesis 3: 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” *Was this merely a lie from the devil in him saying that God knows both good and evil? It states here that God knows good and evil? I know that God's nature is of love, but also of judgement. Does verse 5 mean that God is both good and evil (which I doubt) or is it just saying that he had knowledge of both of these ideals: good and evil, from the beginning? Verse 5 indicates that God knows both good and evil, but in what way? Help on understanding this would be much appreciated. Chap, The idea that the serpent was the devil is a Christian one. Where do you see the words 'satan' or 'devil' in Gen 3? Please read scripture as it is written. Some others here have given you good words. G-d is in control of all both good and evil. Christians don't want to accept that but its evident in the Jewish bible! I am going to follow T8s example, Towshab, The idea of the serpent being an evil god comes from ancient sumeria. Enki or Ea the idea of the serpent being a deceiving god like being is far more ancient than the bible. it is not a Christian idea that was just invented.

So Christianity is Sumerian?

[942767]

Quote (acertainchap @ Nov. 14 2007,00:56)

– New King James Version – Genesis 3: 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” *Was this merely a lie from the devil in him saying that God knows both good and evil? It states here that God knows good and evil? I know that God's nature is of love, but also of judgement. Does verse 5 mean that God is both good and evil (which I doubt) or is it just saying that he had knowledge of both of these ideals: good and evil, from the beginning? Verse 5 indicates that God knows both good and evil, but in what way? Help on understanding this would be much appreciated.

Hi Chap:

All of God's commandments are good.  They are intended for our good.  Disobedience to His commandments is evil, and God knows this.  God is Holy and cannot commit evil as in committing sin which if he did he would be transgressing His own commandments.

He does create evil in the sense that he may create calmity or allow it always with the intent of saving His children from the consequence of sin.

God Bless

[kenrch]

Quote (acertainchap @ Nov. 14 2007,03:18)

Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 14 2007,02:16) Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Rev 22:14 Happy are those who wash their robes clean and so have the right to eat the fruit from the tree of life and to go through the gates into the city. Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. Do you think these people care what the bible says? Rev 22:18 I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book: Rev 22:19 and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book. You say these people. What people are you talking about?

I'm talking about the people who changed Rev. 22:14 from “do His commandments TO wash their robes. THOSE PEOPLE!

[Morningstar]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 14 2007,14:31)

Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 13 2007,21:12) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 14 2007,13:09) Quote (acertainchap @ Nov. 13 2007,07:56) – New King James Version – Genesis 3: 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” *Was this merely a lie from the devil in him saying that God knows both good and evil? It states here that God knows good and evil? I know that God's nature is of love, but also of judgement. Does verse 5 mean that God is both good and evil (which I doubt) or is it just saying that he had knowledge of both of these ideals: good and evil, from the beginning? Verse 5 indicates that God knows both good and evil, but in what way? Help on understanding this would be much appreciated. Chap, The idea that the serpent was the devil is a Christian one. Where do you see the words 'satan' or 'devil' in Gen 3? Please read scripture as it is written. Some others here have given you good words. G-d is in control of all both good and evil. Christians don't want to accept that but its evident in the Jewish bible! I am going to follow T8s example, Towshab, The idea of the serpent being an evil god comes from ancient sumeria.  Enki or Ea the idea of the serpent being a deceiving god like being is far more ancient than the bible. it is not a Christian idea that was just invented. So Christianity is Sumerian?

no rather the earth has a shared past. All religions have truth in them.

Before I get stoned to death what I mean is all religions have at least one true or good thing about them.

We all have a common history. The record of that history got distorted throughout the whole world.

Example: every where on earth is a simular flood myth yet it is told with alot of variants and distortions.

The bible's claim is that it fixed these distortions via revelation from God.

[Morningstar]

Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 14 2007,16:38)

Quote (acertainchap @ Nov. 14 2007,03:18) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 14 2007,02:16) Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev 22:14  Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Rev 22:14  Happy are those who wash their robes clean and so have the right to eat the fruit from the tree of life and to go through the gates into the city. Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. Do you think these people care what the bible says? Rev 22:18  I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book: Rev 22:19  and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book. You say these people. What people are you talking about? I'm talking about the people who changed Rev. 22:14 from “do His commandments TO wash their robes.  THOSE PEOPLE!

The two readings are pronounced similarly in Greek. It is not hard to see how PLUNONTESTASSTOLASAUTON might have changed into POIOUNTESTASENTOLASAUTOU (that is, how “rinse their robes” changed into “do his commandments” or vice versa whatever the case may be), especially since “do his commandments” would be much more expected than “rinse their robes.” Elsewhere John writes “keep the commandments” (Revelation 12:17; 14:12).

[bmanmcfly]

Quote

Genesis 3: 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” *Was this merely a lie from the devil in him saying that God knows both good and evil? It states here that God knows good and evil? I know that God's nature is of love, but also of judgement. Does verse 5 mean that God is both good and evil (which I doubt) or is it just saying that he had knowledge of both of these ideals: good and evil, from the beginning? Verse 5 indicates that God knows both good and evil, but in what way? Help on understanding this would be much appreciated.

I'll probly get flamed for this… but if you think of the serpant as being 'Elohim' (a person from outside the confines of Eden), and that he talked to both Adam (as a group of men) and Eve (a group of woman) to consume the forbidden knowledge (however taking that knowledge means, possibly clearing the veil of 'nakedness' (re: ignorance) that first the woman went for and followed by the man… then they were cast out of Eden the city that the Nephilim have built.

The way I look at things, that is a very believable story all of a sudden.

[bmanmcfly]

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 14 2007,16:00)

Quote Hi Chap: All of God's commandments are good.  They are intended for our good.  Disobedience to His commandments is evil, and God knows this.  God is Holy and cannot commit evil as in committing sin which if he did he would be transgressing His own commandments. He does create evil in the sense that he may create calmity or allow it always with the intent of saving His children from the consequence of sin. God Bless

You sound like the right person that might be able to explain why 'Thou shalt not make a graven image' should be more important of a commandment, even more important than 'Thou shalt not kill'??

What could be so important to forbid the image of 'god', so much more than the act of killing another human?

The other thing you might help with is that it seems that there is one 'God' when I go to church, but to read the bible man was created in 'OUR' image and not 'HIS' image?? There are at least a few places in the bible where either there is more than one god or He likes to talk of himself as being a plural? Any insight?

[NickHassan]

Quote (kejonn @ Nov. 14 2007,02:10)

ACC, My thoughts are that man has been given free will. The concept of total free will would be absent outside of the knowledge of good and evil. Therefore, to choose good over evil is our way of growing closer to our Creator God. This was the very first instance of man disobeying God and this idea is extended throughout the Tanach (Old Testament). God only gave Adam and Eve one rule and they broke it. It gives us the very first example of there being consequences for disobedience. In this case it came in the form of expulsion from the Garden. The “death” that came from this was a separation from a perfect relationship with God and access to Eden.

Hi,
Indeed man is ever offered opportunities to choose life over death.

[NickHassan]

Quote (bmanmcfly @ Nov. 16 2007,16:36)

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 14 2007,16:00) Quote Hi Chap: All of God's commandments are good.  They are intended for our good.  Disobedience to His commandments is evil, and God knows this.  God is Holy and cannot commit evil as in committing sin which if he did he would be transgressing His own commandments. He does create evil in the sense that he may create calmity or allow it always with the intent of saving His children from the consequence of sin. God Bless You sound like the right person that might be able to explain why 'Thou shalt not make a graven image' should be more important of a commandment, even more important than 'Thou shalt not kill'?? What could be so important to forbid the image of 'god', so much more than the act of killing another human?   The other thing you might help with is that it seems that there is one 'God' when I go to church, but to read the bible man was created in 'OUR' image and not 'HIS' image??  There are at least a few places in the bible where either there is more than one god or He likes to talk of himself as being a plural?  Any insight?

Hi bcm,
Of course God was not alone in heaven.
He was surrounded by His sons and hosts of angels.
Man is alike to them though enshrouded in a flesh body.

[Shania]

Back to the original passage:

Gen 3:4-6

4 “You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.
NIV

Before they ate of this tree, Adam and Eve soley relied on God- nothing from their own reasonings. They just did what He told them. It was simple, child-like obedience. They had trust and confidence (faith) in Him to make the right decisions- they just did as He said because they loved and trusted Him.

That is what our relationship with God was supposed to be. Walking in faith, trusting Him- only doing what He says. Let's look at the second Adam:

John 10:17-18
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father .”
NIV

John 10:37-38
37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.
NIV

John 14:10-11
10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
NIV

John 14:31
31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
NIV

John 15:15-16
Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
NIV

John 20:17
'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'”
NIV

Everything that Jesus said and did was from his Father. Nothing on his own. He walked in complete love and obedience.

The idea of gaining wisdom for yourself and making your own decisions apart from what the Father has commanded originated from Satan.

“6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. “
NIV

The way that Satan inticed her was with promoting a mistrust in her Father.

Gen 3:4-5

4 “You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
NIV

He is saying, “Your Father is not really good. He has lied to you because He just wants to lord over you with His wisdom. You know better..”

This was Satan's desire. He wanted to be His own god. He wanted the glory. He wanted to be in charge.

God knows good and evil. Crystal clear to Him. Why does the knowledge of good and evil produce death? You see, when Adam and Eve ate the fruit, the made the choice to disobey. They made the choice that their knowledge would be more profitable to them than God's knowledge. Their knowledge was obtained through sin- sin messes up the picture. They now have a knowledge of good and evil and with the presence of sin in their hearts, they are more prone to sin- knowing exactly what they are choosing. This produces death.

Rom 7:4-6
5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
NIV

John 9:40-41

40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”

41 Jesus said, “If you were blind , you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.
NIV

You see, if you are sinning without knowing it, you are not guilty until you know that it is sin and you continue in it. It is like when you are a kid and you take a piece of candy from the grocery store, but you did not know that it was stealing and that it was wrong… until someone told you. If you did it again, you would be guilty.

We are to put this nature to death and follow the second Adam:

1 John 3:2-10
2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. [we will not be blinded by sin] 3 Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. [we purify ourselves because we are seeking to become like him. We are on our way.]

4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning . No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. [We have knowledge of good and evil but now we are born from above and we have the oppertunity to walk in the light.]

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
NIV

1 John 2:6
6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
NIV

Now what do you do if you stumble? Does that mean that you are condemned to hell? No, you return to Him and you repent and stop sinning. You are in a process and you are not magically like Him overnight. He is forming you to His image. You have to trust Him and have faith in Him… when you wander from this, you are in sin, but if you repent and change you are forgiven. This is a heart issue. Only He knows your heart. If you are wanting to live in sin and think that you can get away with it due to “grace”, He knows that. This is not what I am talking about.

Heb 10:26-27

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
NIV

[Author]

Posts