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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2011,12:16) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 25 2011,02:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 24 2011,13:30) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 24 2011,09:17) but all i have ever read and studied show ELOHIM as a PLURAL EXPRESSION OF A SINGULAR GOD.
Like I said, go read the debate………at least MY posts. Did you know Nebuchadnezzar was called the “KINGS of kings”? The first plural word “KINGS”, exactly like elohim, denotes majesty. The second one means more than one king. So the phrase means that Nebuchadnezzar is the most majestic King among all the other kings.Canaan is prophesied to become the SLAVES of slaves. The plural SLAVES denotes that he will be the “most” slave that anyone could be.
Solomon's love song is called the SONGS of songs. The SONGS indicates it is a majestic, or grandiose love song, better than the other love songs.
Do you get the picture? Instead of capitalizing the first letter or even the whole word like we do in English, the Hebrews used the plural of the word to indicate grandiosity. It is most commonly called the “plural of majesty”. So the plural word elohim means only one of two things: the SINGULAR el mentioned is very majestic, as in God, or more than one el are mentioned, as in “gods”. It never refers to a “plural being”, whatever that is.
peace and love,
mike
Mike……….And like I said I could care less about YOUR interpretation of the Word Elohim, I believe the Hebrew scholars know far more then you concerning that word. And I also see it the way they do too, GOD OR ELOHIM IS A UN-PLURAL EXPRESSION rather you understand that or not makes no differences to the truth about it. IMOpeace and love………………………………………….gene
What a cop-out, Gene. And what does “UN-PLURAL” mean? SINGULAR?Where do you think I got my info in the first place? And once again, you balk at the actual SCRIPTURAL proof I show you. Not even one little question about any of the scriptures.
Show me the NON-TRINITARIAN Hebrew scholars you're talking about. Give me the link if you don't mind.
And while you're at it, explain to me from the SCRIPTURAL evidence I've showed you how I'm mistaken. Explain to me what YOU and your scholars think “SONGS of songs” means. Or “SLAVES of slaves”. Or “KINGS of kings”. Explain why Nebuchadnezzar was a HE, not a THEM, yet he was the KINGS of kings.
Or, better yet, just bury your head in the sand. You're good at it. I really can't even believe your response, Gene.
It is a pure case of deliberately ignoring factual and scriptural information once again because it doesn't align with YOUR doctrine.mike
Mike…………UNI-PLURAL Is a self invented word i use to explain the word Elohim. To simplify it to you it mean ONE GOD in SEVEN DISTINCT ATTRIBUTES. I have studied that word a long time ago and it actually is a word the denotes Powers , in fact i have post many time here about it in the past, the first place the word appeared was it the Hebrew pictorial language , it was drawn as a OX head with a Staff beside it. This is what Represented the WORD GOD to the ancient Hebrews, the OX represented POWER and the Staff was what they used as Support. These two meanings were what the (ORIGINAL) word meant. We are told there are (SEVEN SPIRIT OF GOD) These Seven Spirits form ONE GOD. thus the self invented word UNI-PLURAL . Sorry for the miss-posting of UN- PLURAL, I MEANT UNI-PLURAL meaning ONE GOD WITH SEVEN SPIRITS. A plural form of one GOD. You do not have to believe there are SEVEN SPIRITS of ONE GOD, that is your right, and i respect that. IMOpeace and love…………………………gene
Gene
You, and others, claim that HE (Jesus) was only a “thought” in God's mind, in God's plan; explain to me then what was Jesus asking his Father when he said this?
Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “””the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”””
Is Jesus asking the Father to become a “thought” in his Fathers mind again?
Read the second scripture, and my question following that scripture; that is my question.
Georg
Georg………..EVERYTHING was ONLY a THOUGHT IN THE MIND OF GOD before it EXISTED. What is so hard to understand about that? Do you think everything was just a crap shoot? Some brainless God floating around on a cloud with no hand in what he creates no fore thought about what he is doing. Have you reduced you GOD to that?
gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 26 2011,01:33) You do not have to believe there are SEVEN SPIRITS of ONE GOD, that is your right, and i respect that. IMO
Why wouldn't I believe it? It's in the scriptures, isn't it? I never implied I didn't believe that God has seven spirits. I said that I don't believe He was talking to His spirits in Genesis 1:26 any more than you talk to your spirit or I talk to mine.Now, please tell me about the “uni-plural” being of King Nebuchadnezzar, since he is called the KINGS of kings in Hebrew.
peace and love,
mikeMike……….Don't follow you logic here, and Yes King Nebuchadnezzar was indeed king of earthly kings, was not the image Daniel saw the head was the King of Babylonian and all earthly Kingdoms after him were less and less in power and stature. He was the head of Gold in the vision Daniel saw right so he in that sense was the King of Kings on the earth. IMO
peace and love……………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 27 2011,14:46) Mike……….Don't follow you logic here, and Yes King Nebuchadnezzar was indeed king of earthly kings, was not the image Daniel saw the head was the King of Babylonian and all earthly Kingdoms after him were less and less in power and stature. He was the head of Gold in the vision Daniel saw right so he in that sense was the King of Kings on the earth. IMO peace and love……………………………gene
Hi Gene,I thought I was clear in the other post………….apparently I wasn't.
Nebuchadnezzar is called the KINGS (as in plural) of kings. So is Artaxerxes for that matter. And what that teaches us is that the Hebrews sometimes used the plural form of certain words, not to indicate “more than one”, but to indicate the ONE they were speaking about was a “majestic one”. It's commonly called the “plural of majesty” and you can Google it.
But my point is that the plural word “elohim” can either mean “gods”, as in more than one, or it can mean “Majestic God”. Same with the word “melek” (king). When they used the plural form of the word to describe Nebuchadnezzar, they weren't implying that Neb was some kind of “plural being”. They were simply implying that he was the MAJESTIC King over all the other kings. They used the plural form of “king” referring to Neb the same way we would capitalize the “K” to show he was the King of kings.
This is the same with “elohim”. When the singular God is referred to by the plural word “elohim”, it is not because they thought God was a “plural being”. It was because they were saying He was a MAJESTIC “El”, as opposed to just an ordinary “el”. Again, we in English would just cap the “G” to imply the same thing that the Hebrews used the plural form of the word to imply.
Get it?
peace and love,
mikeMike………….Wrong again, they were the king of the kings in there day or at that time. No where doe that imply they were plural kings. What has that got to do with the word Elohim? We are told by Jesus that there is only ONE TRUE GOD, remember “THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”. And again “while the gods many , but to us there is ONLY ONE GOD”. That one God is only plural when considering his Seven Spirits but still Composing (ONE) GOD. HENCE MY invented WORD UNI-PLURAL. The word for GOD is basically POWER and that power has seven distinct attributes of Spirit (intellects) that go to and fro in all the earth one reason is because they are (IN) God's created being. IMO
peace and love……………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 26 2011,02:01) Georg………..EVERYTHING was ONLY a THOUGHT IN THE MIND OF GOD before it EXISTED. What is so hard to understand about that? Do you think everything was just a crap shoot? Some brainless God floating around on a cloud with no hand in what he creates no fore thought about what he is doing. Have you reduced you GOD to that? gene
You really have a problem giving a straight answer, don't you?“”WAS JESUS ASKING THE FATHER TO BECOME A THOUGHT IN HIS MIND AGAIN?”” when he ask this?
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “””the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”””
Give me a straight answer to this scripture, if you can.
Georg
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 28 2011,14:55) Mike………….Wrong again, they were the king of the kings in there day or at that time. No where doe that imply they were plural kings.
Hi Gene,How is it that you don't get what I'm saying? Georg, do you understand what I'm saying about “elohim”?
Of course Nebuchadnezzar was not a “plural being”. I'M the one arguing that the plural word did NOT mean that one was a plural being.
But the same goes with “elohim”. The plural word was used either to refer to “more than one god”, or “one majestic God”. The word never means or implies any kind of plural being. So if YOU want to continue to think of God and His spirits as a “uni-plural being', go ahead – that's YOUR choice.
But don't try to incorporate the plural word “elohim” into it as some sort of PROOF of your theory, okay?
mike
Mike……………But you can say the Us and OUR is Jesus Right, Look up any Hebrew explanation the word Elohim and it is a PLURAL FORM representing ONE GOD. That is not my interpretation of the Word Elohim Mike. Her is a more simple understanding for you, If i had a gun a revolver and it had seven distinct chambers that held seven different bullets in it , Now does that mean i have seven different GUNS or ONE GUN with seven different bullets in it and that come forth from the ONE GUN. God has SEVEN Different SPIRITS (intellects) That go out into all the earth they are his creative forces and are connected with POWER. Jesus has all the SEVEN SPIRITS (intellects) or eyes of GOD and they are connected with POWERS that is what the ” seven Horns” in Revelation symbolizes . The fullness of God is in Jesus by the seven Spirits with seven powers. IMO
peace and love……………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 30 2011,01:32) Mike……………But you can say the Us and OUR is Jesus Right, Look up any Hebrew explanation the word Elohim and it is a PLURAL FORM representing ONE GOD.
Hi Gene,There's no misunderstanding going on about this part. I think the “US” refers to God and Jesus. You think it refers to God and His spirits.
The misunderstanding that YOU'RE having is that you think the plural word “elohim” could refer to a “plural being”. It doesn't mean that any more than the plural word “kings” meant that Nebuchadnezzar was a “plural being”.
Here's one thing I have on my side, Gene. We are made in the image of God. Jesus is made in the image of God. So saying “Let us make them in OUR image” rings a bell for me.
On the other hand, for the “OUR” image to work in your understanding, God's seven spirits would almost have to be individual “people” who shared God's image WITH Him, wouldn't they? I mean, if they were only a PART OF God, then they wouldn't have their own individual image that was LIKE God's, and therefore God wouldn't have said “OUR” image.
What do you think?
mike
Mike…………..No the our are individual (ATTRIBUTES) of ONE GOD and these Attributes are (IN) all his CREATION even MAN. That is why it say the invisible things of GOD can be seen by the things created, why because He instilled in His creation some of his attributes (spirits) (intellects) and these (cause) his creation to function. When it say that God may be al and in All is not wrong, GOD does live vicariously (IN) his creation, He truly was and is in Jesus Also.
When God said let US create man in OUR Image he was speaking of those attributes of GOD that cause us to IMAGE HIM. God was dividing Himself into Man by putting those Spirit attributes of HIS (IN) Man. The Spirit (intellect) of Truth IS ALSO AN ATTRIBUTE OF GOD. Mike can't you see GOD puts himself (IN) his creation , that is how GOD can be (all) and in (all). That is why it say we are being Created unto good works , it is (all) a creation OF GOD IN ALL THINGS> IMO
peace and love…………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 30 2011,04:03)
The Spirit (intellect) of Truth IS ALSO AN ATTRIBUTE OF GOD.
Hi Gene,And so what you're saying is that an attribute of God shares an image with God? Does your attribute of “truth” share your “image”? How about your attribute of “justice”. Does that attribute have an “image” of its own that is like your image?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 30 2011,04:03)
Mike can't you see GOD puts himself (IN) his creation
Gene, you do this quite frequently, and it's irritating. When did I ever say God WASN'T in His creations?You did the same thing about the seven spirits. You posted something to me that implied I didn't believe the scripture that speaks of God's seven spirits. But I never said that or implied it anywhere in my conversation with you. I only said that I don't think the spirits OF God were considered to be the “US” in Genesis 1:26. But from that statement, you started implying that I'm arguing with scripture because the seven spirits are mentioned.
When did I ever say they weren't? And you've done this many times on many different subjects and scriptures. Please only address what I DO SAY from now on. Don't put words in my mouth.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 30 2011,04:03) Mike…………..No the our are individual (ATTRIBUTES) of ONE GOD and these Attributes are (IN) all his CREATION even MAN. That is why it say the invisible things of GOD can be seen by the things created, why because He instilled in His creation some of his attributes (spirits) (intellects) and these (cause) his creation to function. When it say that God may be al and in All is not wrong, GOD does live vicariously (IN) his creation, He truly was and is in Jesus Also. When God said let US create man in OUR Image he was speaking of those attributes of GOD that cause us to IMAGE HIM. God was dividing Himself into Man by putting those Spirit attributes of HIS (IN) Man. The Spirit (intellect) of Truth IS ALSO AN ATTRIBUTE OF GOD. Mike can't you see GOD puts himself (IN) his creation , that is how GOD can be (all) and in (all). That is why it say we are being Created unto good works , it is (all) a creation OF GOD IN ALL THINGS> IMO
peace and love…………………………………….gene
Gene: Very nicely put. This aligns with Jesus praying that we all be ONE and he and the father are ONE. That we may all be ONE together.Perhaps you agree, we are “cells” of God, pieces of God with all the attributes of God because we are sons of God!
Your post says it all. Excellent in my opinion! God has blessed you! TK
Tim,
I believe you think too highly of your meager existence. We are dust of the earth made alive by the breath and grace of our God, who is not dust of the earth. We are not “parts of the being of God”, but rather only one of the many things He created for His own pleasure.
mike
Mike…………..Why then does it say that “GOD MAY BE ALL AND (IN) YOU ALL” and again “KNOW YOU NOT THAT (NOW) YOU (ARE) THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD”. And again “LET THIS MIND BE (IN) YOU THAT WAS IN CHRIST JESUS OUR Lord” .
MIKE HERE IS YOU PROBLEM IMO…….Act 17:29 ..> For as much then as we are the (OFFSPRING) OF GOD, we ought not to think that the GODHEAD is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art, and man's device. Mike God did not create us to be different then Him, in fact he commands us to be exactly like him, HE COMMANDS US SAYING “BE YOU HOLY BECAUSE I AM HOLY BE YOU PERFECT BECAUSE I AM PERFECT” , why would he command us to be like him if it were not possible, your still thinking you are carnal minded , where GOD said My ways are not your way and my thoughts are not your thoughts as he told accident Israel, and that was true then, But we Have the Mind of the Anointing, the Mind of GOD is In us also just as it was in Jesus our brother and Lord, if so be the spirit of God is (IN) you then so is the Mind of GOD. “Now if this mind be in You that was (IN) Christ Jesus our lord (IT) shall also quicken (bring to life) Your (mortal) Bodies also”. The same way it did Jesus' body.
Mike the spirit of God searches the deep thing of GOD and reveals them to us, mike it is no accident that the last book in the bible is the book of revelations, Jesus full well know we are saved by reavealed knowledge from God into our minds, which transforms our thinking to a line with his brother. IMO
peace and love…………………………………..gene
Hi Gene and Tim,
Isaiah 29:16
You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2011,04:45) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 30 2011,04:03)
The Spirit (intellect) of Truth IS ALSO AN ATTRIBUTE OF GOD.
Hi Gene,And so what you're saying is that an attribute of God shares an image with God? Does your attribute of “truth” share your “image”? How about your attribute of “justice”. Does that attribute have an “image” of its own that is like your image?
Mike…………The mental attributes of God are what makes up God the same with your mental attributes make up who you are. Why is that so hard to understand? Each of the seven Spirits of GOD represent different attributes of (INTELLECTS) in HIM. You could even say different animals have various attributes of intellects given them by God also, and they act and survive by them . Jesus has all these in him and so do the Saints of God , Just as it says we are to come to the (full) stature and Measure of Christ or the Anointing of GOD, Just as Jesus has also. All who have been given the Holy Spirit have the very same mind of Jesus and see things as Jesus and GOD the Father sees them, because of the Spirit (intellect) of GOD in them. IMOpeace and love……………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 31 2011,03:08) Jesus has all these in him and so do the Saints of God ,
Yet, for some odd reason, I haven't ever read a scripture where Jesus or any of the Saints talked to their “attributes” as if they were separate individuals like you assert God did in Gen 1:26.Did Jesus ever say to his “attributes”, “Hey, attributes, let's go over to that fig tree because WE'RE hungry”?
Gene, show me where anyone else spoke TO their spirit as if it was an individual person, and I will consider your understanding of the “US” and “OUR”.
But if you can't show where Jesus or anyone else talked to their spirits, then you have no support of your claim.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2011,02:43) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 30 2011,01:32) Mike……………But you can say the Us and OUR is Jesus Right, Look up any Hebrew explanation the word Elohim and it is a PLURAL FORM representing ONE GOD.
Hi Gene,There's no misunderstanding going on about this part. I think the “US” refers to God and Jesus.
What do you think?
mike
Hi Mike,Why can't the “us”, be referring to all of us?
2Tm.1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given [[[us]]] in Christ Jesus before the world began, (John 15:27)“The Word” in us!
John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness (by the HolySpirit),
because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning.
Acts 12:24 But “The word” of God grew and multiplied.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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