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Geneis One states …> In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth. 2, The earth was without form and void and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the SPIRIT of GOD was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then GOD Said let there be light and there was light.
4 God saw the light and it was good: and GOD divided the light from the darkness.
5 GOD called the light Day and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.The story continues and notice only GOD Himself is Mentioned and no others is. This goes on until chapter 26, GOD alone is the ONLY ONE Mentioned in all creation so far, but When the creation of Man begins There (seems) to be a difference taking place there , the term US and OUR is Used.
26 Then GOD said “LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE, ACCORDING TO OUR LIKENESS. Now also notice in verse 27 it reverts back to a single GOD, 27…> SO GOD (singular) created Man in (HIS) singular Image : in the IMAGE of GOD HE (singular) created Him male and female HE (singular) created them.
Now there is our dilemma at one place it uses a {Plural form and at another a singular form . Many assume that means Jesus and GOD there. But that is not what is written there. We could force the text and draw that conclusion but it would be a wrong one IMO>
So how can we resolve this seemingly contradiction, Is GOD one or is he and US or and OUR. Fact is GOD is both a Singular and a Plural , When GOD created Man to image Him it required Man to have More of GOD'S SPIRITS (INTELLECTS), then the other creatures GOD had created to be (IN) Man. Man needed to contain mosts if not all of the SEVEN SPIRITS of GOD to be in Him in order for Him to IMAGE or MIRROR and REFLECT GOD .
WE are told there are SEVEN SPIRITS of GOD and these all compose ONE GOD, Much like a like our members compose one being so it is with GOD seven Spirits compose one GOD. IMO
like to know what others think. If perhaps there are not other scripture that back this up.
peace and love to you all……………………………gene
To all,
I believe the word translated God is the plural form. It is my belief that refers to the whole unity linked together and including the Spirit of God. I do not know if angels were part of that unity at that period and human beings had not yet been created.
Gene,
At what point were the Angels created…:
– before the Heavens and the earth,
– afterwards,
– before Mankind,
– after Mankind?The Stars sang together and the sons of God shouted with Joy.
JA…………I do not know when GOD first created angels or son of his nor do you. But that is not the subject i am trying to talk about here JA. Unless you see a tie here please present it then. JA scripture say there are seven Spirits of GOD , so i presume there is , Now i understand Spirit (NOT) as BEINGS with BODIES as many do, I understand Spirit as (INTELLECTS) be it clean or unclean good or evil or what ever involves Life (source). They are the awareness that produce life itself in a person.
And they all came from one source GOD HIMSELF who we are told (IS) SPIRIT. GOD is composed of SEVEN SPIRIT (distinct intellects) called in Scripture “the Seven Spirits of (or) FROM GOD” These seven Spirit are on Jesus now as rev says they are and he will rule with them in his kingdom, they are the very eyes of GOD himself that goes to and from through the whole earth, they represent the Omnipresent of GOD himself. These Spirits (intellects)are every where going to and fro throughout the whole earth as it say they are. Each Spirit (intellect) is distinct from the other but compose as a unit the complete one GOD that is (IN )all and can be through all. JA every thing makes sense if you truly understand what Spirit really is, and it is not a being it is what is (IN) beings.
Man is unique because He has Spirits of GOD (IN) Him More then the animals do. This is why i believe Genesis starts out with just GOD in a singular sense but when it comes to Man Scripture shifts to a Plural sense and i (think) that is because more Spirits of GOD were involved mans creation giving him more intellects and understandings raising him above the rest of the creation to a more GODLY Level so man could be in His exact image by those Spirits (intellects) given him. Just my opinion, but i do believe it has merit. I am not preaching this as a Dogma of any kind just here for the discussions and possibly some inputs from others. JA put you mind to work on just that small area of scriptures i talking about and see what you think would like to know you thoughts on this.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………gene
Gene
I think you are to smart for your own good if you think that God has seven spirits.
Seven is God's number of perfection, the seven spirit only imply that God's Spirit is perfect.
Jesus said, God is spirit, what does that mean? what is Jesus? what are the angel? are they not all spirits? To be spirit simply means, being invisible. That's why Paul referred to our mind as spirit, it is invisible.
You claim there are no spirit beings, how can you tell? the Bible says there are, Jesus says there are devils, after all, he drove them out of people. So, what are devils, are they not spirit beings?I don't know why I bother posting to you since you don't believe the Bible.
Frankly, I think you are here to confuse people even more.Georg
Georg………I am not trying to confuse anyone. Your believe Spirit (just means) “invisible” is in error , spirit is far more then just meaning invisible. Spirit is invisible though that is true, Just as thoughts are invisible but yet thought drive our whole being . So they are FAR MORE THE (JUST) invisible things which you call BEINGS, When in fact SPIRIT is not a BEING , but what is (IN) Beings .
George i am not the one saying There (ARE) seven SPIRIT of the LIVING GOD, scripture say that, you simply do not believe what it is saying without changing it to meet you preconceived religious ideas. Here I will Quote the scripture that say that OK, so you wont be confused any longer.
Rev 5:6 And i beheld, and Lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood an Lamb as it had been slain, (HAVING) seven horns (powers) and seven eyes, (now notice George it is not me saying this but scripture) “WHICH (ARE) THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD, sent forth into all the earth. Now Georg am i the one saying that or was it scripture saying that?. I am sorry you can't understand that but to accuse me of trying to confuse people because i believe what it said in a false accusation by you.
You probably do not believe GOD was Truly (IN) Jesus either right. Your idea of what Spirit is the same as most all religion taught by the MYSTERY RELIGIONS OF THE WORLD. That may be why it seem confusing to you Georg. IMO
peace and love to you and Irene………………….gene
To All……….The challenge is put forth WHO was the US and the OUR written in Genesis 26? Produce scripture proof to back up your claims Please. I have given MY OPINION , want to hear your.
peace and love to you all……………………………….gene
Hi All,
I think God was talking to Jesus when He said, “Let US make man in OUR image”.
1. Jesus is the ONLY one in scripture who is said to have any part in God's creation, therefore the “Let US make” would work just fine.
2. Jesus was also the only one besides man who is said to be made in God's image, therefore the “OUR image” would work just fine.
Then it says that GOD is the ONE who made us, which also fits into the scriptures that say God ALONE made everything……. and it also fits into the ones that say God ALONE made everything THROUGH Jesus.
peace and love,
mikeMike…………Question was the US a GOD also and the OUR a GOD too. ? I say that because the text is (INCLUSIVE) of the Person speaking and those he is speaking of as a group. So this would make GOD talking to OTHER GODS right?. Especially if we say GOD ALONE CREATED EVERYTHING. The Word Elohim is PLURAL as any Hebrew teacher knows. It is translated as POWERS. So these POWERS of GOD is what i believe is being refereed to here. Who else can Create but GOD Alone? The Word GOD is a UNI-PLURAL FORM OF A WORD. Like the powers that be can mean many powers combined and can be also used as ONE power also.
And another point where is the US in all of the creation before the man was created, you will notice it is not there, but the singular form of expression is used so where was Jesus or the OUR or US in all of that part of the creation.
peace and love………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2010,04:52)
Mike…………Question was the US a GOD also and the OUR a GOD too. ?
Gene, there is only ONE God who created all things, right? So, “NO”, the US could not be ANOTHER God.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2010,04:52)
I say that because the text is (INCLUSIVE) of the Person speaking and those he is speaking of as a group. So this would make GOD talking to OTHER GODS right?.
Why? That would be like if you said to your dog, “Let US go for a walk” it would mean your dog had to be a human being for you to talk to him.
God also says to (presumably) the angels with him, “Who will go for US” in Isaiah, right? Or do you think God is asking this question of His spirits (who are also “Gods”)?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2010,04:52)
The Word Elohim is PLURAL as any Hebrew teacher knows. It is translated as POWERS. So these POWERS of GOD is what i believe is being refereed to here.
The word “elohim” means “rulers” or “judges” or “mighty ones”. I have never seen where it means “powers”. Could you show me where I could find that definition of “elohim”?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2010,04:52)
And another point where is the US in all of the creation before the man was created, you will notice it is not there, but the singular form of expression is used so where was Jesus or the OUR or US in all of that part of the creation.
Hey Gene, could you rephrase this part. I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're saying here. Thanks.peace and love,
mikeGene and all,
Let's have a look at Psalms 104 in the Septuagint for any clues:
Psalm 104
A Psalm of David.104:1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou hast clothed thyself with praise and honour: 2 who dost robe thyself with light as with a garment; spreading out the heaven as a curtain. 3 Who covers his chambers with waters; who makes the clouds his chariot; who walks on the wings of the wind. 4 Who makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flaming fire.
5 Who establishes the earth on her sure foundation: it shall not be moved for ever. 6 The deep, as it were a garment, is his covering: the waters shall stand on the hills. 7 At thy rebuke they shall flee; at the voice of thy thunder they shall be alarmed. 8 They go up to the mountains, and down to the plains, to the place which thou hast founded for them. 9 Thou hast set a bound which they shall not pass, neither shall they turn again to cover the earth.
10 He sends forth his fountains among the valleys: the waters shall run between the mountains. 11 They shall give drink to all the wild beasts of the field: the wild asses shall take of them to quench their thirst. 12 By them shall the birds of the sky lodge: they shall utter a voice out of the midst of the rocks. 13 He waters the mountains from his chambers: the earth shall be satisfied with the fruit of thy works.
14 He makes grass to grow for the cattle, and green herb for the service of men, to bring bread out of the earth; 15 and wine makes glad the heart of man, to make his face cheerful with oil: and bread strengthens man’s heart. 16 The trees of the plain shall be full of sap; even the cedars of Libanus which he has planted. 17 There the sparrows will build their nests; and the house of the heron takes the lead among them. 18 The high mountains are a refuge for the stags, and the rock for the rabbits.
19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knows his going down. 20 Thou didst make darkness, and it was night; in it all the wild beasts of the forest will be abroad: 21 even young lions roaring for prey, and to seek meat for themselves from God. 22 The sun arises, and they shall be gathered together, and shall lie down in their dens. 23 Man shall go forth to his work, and to his labour till evening.
24 How great are thy works, O Lord! in wisdom hast thou wrought them all: the earth is filled with thy creation. 25 So is this great and wide sea: there are things creeping innumerable, small animals and great. 26 There go the ships; and this dragon whom thou hast made to play in it. 27 All wait upon thee, to give them their food in due season. 28 When thou hast given it them, they will gather it; and when thou hast opened thine hand, they shall all be filled with good. 29 But when thou hast turned away thy face, they shall be troubled: thou wilt take away their breath, and they shall fail, and return to their dust. 30 Thou shalt send forth thy Spirit, and they shall be created; and thou shalt renew the face of the earth.
31 Let the glory of the Lord be for ever: the Lord shall rejoice in his works; 32 who looks upon the earth, and makes it tremble; who touches the mountains, and they smoke. 33 I will sing to the Lord while I live; I will sing praise to my God while I exist. 34 Let my meditation be sweet to him: and I will rejoice in the Lord. 35 Let the sinners fail from off the earth, and transgressors, so that they shall be no more. Bless the Lord, O my soul.
I have bolded out some of the pronouns used for the person/persons involved in creation. I think that it is interesting that the Psalmist says “thou hast this or that” and then changes to third person pronouns saying “He sends forth…He makes…” This could indicate more than one person.
24 How great are thy works, O Lord! in wisdom hast thou wrought them all: the earth is filled with thy creation.
We are told that Jesus is the wisdom of God, and Proverbs 8 has wisdom as a master craftsman during creation, and Hebrews 1 has the Son laying the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of the Son's hands. I also believe that it could have been the Son that made His (the Son's) angels spirits, and His servants flames of fire as spoken about in Psalms 104 and Hebrews 1. We find in John 1:3 that all things came into being through the Word that was in the beginning and became flesh. We also find in Col 1:16 that it was by the Firstborn of all Creation that all things were created in heaven and on earth.
So, I see plenty of evidence of the Son's involvement in creation. Many get hung up on their understanding of only person, all alone, as creator but another way of looking at this is, within the teaching of one creator, the Son is considered part of that Creator as His 'Outstretched Arm' in places, in other places He could be considered as His 'Wisdom.'
LU…………….Yes we could conjecture all kind of thing and that is exactly what Gnostic's ,Trinitarians and Preexistences have done But we also have scriptures that Say GOD (ALONE AND BY HIMSELF) created the world and everything in it. Now one has shown any activity by Jesus at all in scripture before his berth on earth, Just conjectures from text that can be forced to mean that , but in fact do not specifically say it. All the things you quoted show ONE GOD doing His works on earth. You do not find One sentence that say US or OUR works there anywhere in what you have quoted. LU, go read what God said to JOB and see if you can find any other person involved n what he does there, you will find the ONLY GOD speaks of HIS own doing and no other.
Many believe Jesus went along for the ride like the preexistences do here , so they say “yes God did it alone and By himself , BUT “through Jesus”. But my bible say GOD gives His glory to NO MAN. And rather people want to believe it or not Jesus said He was Son of MAN. Scripture even say that sin inter the world through man and was dealt with by Man , the “MAN” Jesus. And Jesus also said “WHEN THE SON OF “MAN” RETURNS”. Another thing if Jesus was so involved in creation why did he fail to mention one word about it himself, and notice no disciple of his described him as creating anything. Why did not Jesus ever say, yeah i was there helping GOD create Adam and EVE,and the rest of the whole creation, surely he would have said something right?, if in fact he was there right, i mean what would be the big secret and not tell us or any disciple right? Mike and others use the word “THROUGH” as the big proof text when that word is translated 50 different ways in scripture .
LU i trust in what the LORD GOD said , that he (ALONE) AND BY (HIMSELF) created every thing that exists including you and Me and Jesus and all creation all done by ONE GOD. And i believe me and Jesus are in perfect agreement with this also. I give (ALL) the GLORY to the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD> NO OTHER.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………….gene
Hi Gene,
You call it conjecture so that means that it could mean this or that. Are you open to the possibility? You will only see something if you are open to the possibility and with an honest and willing heart ask God to show you.Remember, Jesus was not out to toot his own horn. How many times did Jesus tell others not to tell anyone of some spectacular thing that they heard or saw about Him. All scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit, not just Jesus' words Gene, and we have plenty of verses that speak of Jesus' involvement in creation. The Holy Spirit testifies about Jesus.
I have thought about why some believe in Jesus but that He was only a man and wondered about the progressiveness of faith. As faith increases, Jesus and who He is increases.
Remember that Jesus said:
“Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Matt: 11:11 NASBWouldn't that make John the Baptist be the example to follow over Jesus if Jesus was just a man?
Also, God's glory that He will not give to another has Jesus as the radiance of that glory. Think about that.
LU………..> The reason John the Baptiste was not greater then Jesus was because John did not have the full anointing of GOD Spirit placed on HIM as Jesus did, and He was not the one called to the glory of being the first born from among Men to be born into the kingdom of GOD Jesus was given that calling before he ever came into existence the first of MANY Brothers. The kingdom of GOD really did not start until the outpouring of Gods Spirit on On mankind in a (general sense) at the day of Pentecost as Peter explained. LU and while you can be open to any possibilities we should be on guard because MANY DECEIVERS Have are in the world and if that was true at the time of John how much more truer it is now, the LIE has Spread to most all of Christendom. LU it is easy to go with the flow but those in the truth of God will not conform to false teachings rather by trinitarians or by Preexistences of all types. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 21 2010,06:30) Remember that Jesus said: “Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Matt: 11:11 NASBWouldn't that make John the Baptist be the example to follow over Jesus if Jesus was just a man?
Excellent point Kathi!
And I noticed that Gene's response didn't touch on the scripture and what Jesus actually said at all. Like he often does, he is again “skirting the issue”.As far as your “creator within the Creator” thing………….
All things came FROM GOD. All things came THROUGH JESUS. If Jesus was “co-Creator” or “part of the Creator”, then all things would have been said to have come FROM GOD AND JESUS. But that's not what scripture says. It says “God alone created”. It says He did that THROUGH His Son. And it says this even AFTER Jesus had come and revealed himself as the outstretched arm of his God.
Kathi, do you think the “US” in Gen 1 is Jesus, like I do?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 22 2010,03:01) The reason John the Baptiste was not greater then Jesus was because John did not have the full anointing of GOD Spirit placed on HIM as Jesus did, and He was not the one called to the glory of being the first born from among Men to be born into the kingdom of GOD Jesus was given that calling before he ever came into existence the first of MANY Brothers. The kingdom of GOD really did not start until the outpouring of Gods Spirit on On mankind in a (general sense) at the day of Pentecost as Peter explained.
Okay Gene,If you know this, then surely your Lord Jesus knew this also, right? So why then did he say what he did about John the Baptist?
mike
Kathy and Mike Boll,
You miss the secound part of Matthew 11:11 since those that are in the kingdom of heaven are also born of woman.
I believe he was speaking of the first birth v the second birth as John did not experience the second birth which is part of the new covenant that was not yet sealed by Jesus' blood.
Jesus did know that John was not the Messiah since he spoke of himself being such as it is only through Jesus that that God is in those that believe.
John the Baptist was under the covenant put in place by Mosses and preached that covenant. Jesus preached the good news of the comming of the new covenant.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 22 2010,15:06) You miss the secound part of Matthew 11:11 since those that are in the kingdom of heaven are also born of woman.
Those in the Kingdom of God are “born from above” Kerwin. (John 3:3)mike
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 21 2010,23:06) Kathy and Mike Boll, You miss the secound part of Matthew 11:11 since those that are in the kingdom of heaven are also born of woman.
I believe he was speaking of the first birth v the second birth as John did not experience the second birth which is part of the new covenant that was not yet sealed by Jesus' blood.
Jesus did know that John was not the Messiah since he spoke of himself being such as it is only through Jesus that that God is in those that believe.
John the Baptist was under the covenant put in place by Mosses and preached that covenant. Jesus preached the good news of the comming of the new covenant.
Hi Kerwin,
Interesting that you bring up this:Quote Jesus preached the good news of the comming of the new covenant. Now read Malachi 3:1-3 which Matthew 11:11 refers to:
Mal 3:1-3
3 “Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of hosts.
2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.
3 “He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness.
NASUWould you mind supplying who you think the pronouns that I have bolded, refer to? Just put in parenthesis or in a different color the person you believe the pronoun is meaning after the pronoun itself.
Thanks!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 22 2010,11:04) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 22 2010,03:01) The reason John the Baptiste was not greater then Jesus was because John did not have the full anointing of GOD Spirit placed on HIM as Jesus did, and He was not the one called to the glory of being the first born from among Men to be born into the kingdom of GOD Jesus was given that calling before he ever came into existence the first of MANY Brothers. The kingdom of GOD really did not start until the outpouring of Gods Spirit on On mankind in a (general sense) at the day of Pentecost as Peter explained.
Okay Gene,If you know this, then surely your Lord Jesus knew this also, right? So why then did he say what he did about John the Baptist?
mike
MIke………Are you saying you can't figure that out, there truly was no greater then John born (FROM) women, and that included Jesus himself also, until he received the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD into Him at the Jordan river, and became the ONLY Begotten SON of GOD at that time. And truly the least (IN) the Kingdom of GOD is Greater then John was when he was alive on earth because they are SONS of GOD, and at the time Jesus said that, Jesus was the only one begotten from among men into the Kingdom of GOD, AT THAT TIME. At Pentecost that changes and many were called and chosen ever sense to be (IN the Kingdom of GOD and thee will all be greater then John the baptist was when he was on earth. Mike i think you simply like to argue and it is not about truth for you but simply to find something to argue about. IMO
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