- This topic has 514 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 16 years, 7 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 28 2008,15:52) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 28 2008,15:03) Real knowledge will show that –according to the Hebrew OT — Jesus could not be the promised Messiah. Real knowledge will show that God saw human sacrifice as evil. Real knowledge will show that no one can pay for the sins of another. Real knowledge would shatter faith in false things.
Alright Kejonn. What “real knowledge” has led you to the conclusion that Yeshua is not the Messiah. And since you put not stock in the veracity of the scriptures we'll have to exclude them as a source of reference…..What have you got for us?
Hi Is 1:18If you discount scripture, which is the only source that even mentions Jesus beyond the most fleeting whisper, then it is not kejonn that need say anything. It is you that must demonstrate that your outlandish claims about a man who did not need a biological father are true. Kejonn has no burden of proof here.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
You divert.
At this stage KJ believes Jesus existed.
He is inconvinced of the fact that he is the Jewish messiah.Quote (Stu @ Mar. 28 2008,19:43) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 28 2008,15:52) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 28 2008,15:03) Real knowledge will show that –according to the Hebrew OT — Jesus could not be the promised Messiah. Real knowledge will show that God saw human sacrifice as evil. Real knowledge will show that no one can pay for the sins of another. Real knowledge would shatter faith in false things.
Alright Kejonn. What “real knowledge” has led you to the conclusion that Yeshua is not the Messiah. And since you put not stock in the veracity of the scriptures we'll have to exclude them as a source of reference…..What have you got for us?
Hi Is 1:18If you discount scripture, which is the only source that even mentions Jesus beyond the most fleeting whisper, then it is not kejonn that need say anything. It is you that must demonstrate that your outlandish claims about a man who did not need a biological father are true. Kejonn has no burden of proof here.
Stuart
Kejonn has claimed that “Real knowledge will show that –according to the Hebrew OT — Jesus could not be the promised Messiah”, I am quite entitled to question him about the source of his revelation. The burden of proof is most assuredly on him to substantiate this statement. However, he has also made it plain that he does not see the scriptures as inerrant, so there is a conundrum for him. I would not expect him to cite literature he assumes is dubious in veracity. Either scripture is a reliable souce to him, or it isn't….where does this “real knowledge” come from??Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 28 2008,20:09) Hi Stu,
You divert.
At this stage KJ believes Jesus existed.
He is inconvinced of the fact that he is the Jewish messiah.
I really wish you would read my posts.Stuart
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 28 2008,20:32) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 28 2008,19:43) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 28 2008,15:52) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 28 2008,15:03) Real knowledge will show that –according to the Hebrew OT — Jesus could not be the promised Messiah. Real knowledge will show that God saw human sacrifice as evil. Real knowledge will show that no one can pay for the sins of another. Real knowledge would shatter faith in false things.
Alright Kejonn. What “real knowledge” has led you to the conclusion that Yeshua is not the Messiah. And since you put not stock in the veracity of the scriptures we'll have to exclude them as a source of reference…..What have you got for us?
Hi Is 1:18If you discount scripture, which is the only source that even mentions Jesus beyond the most fleeting whisper, then it is not kejonn that need say anything. It is you that must demonstrate that your outlandish claims about a man who did not need a biological father are true. Kejonn has no burden of proof here.
Stuart
Kejonn has claimed that “Real knowledge will show that –according to the Hebrew OT — Jesus could not be the promised Messiah”, I am quite entitled to question him about the source of his revelation. The burden of proof is most assuredly on him to substantiate this statement. However, he has also made it plain that he does not see the scriptures as inerrant, so there is a conundrum for him. I would not expect him to cite literature he assumes is dubious in veracity. Either scripture is a reliable souce to him, or it isn't….where does this “real knowledge” come from??
But it is you, not kejonn who has discounted scripture. How do you know that he cannot distinguish between the truth and the lies in scripture? (I might then ask him the same question that leaves Nick and t8 silent: HOW do you know?).Isa.7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
Real knowledge tells us that men are not born of women that have not had sexual intercourse or been through an IVF programme.
Jer.31:15 This is what the Lord says: “A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more.”
Real knowledge says that there is no record of mass infanticide by Herod, when you would definitely expect some mention of it by at least one of the truckload of Roman diarists writing at the time.
Hos.6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Real knowledge says you don't live again after you are clinically dead.
Stuart
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 28 2008,20:40) Think it through Stuart.
Did you read my reply to Nick? maybe not.Stuart
Hi Stu,
We know you rely more on the newspapers but there were none then.
Is real knowledge just that simple stuff humans figure out?
There are other greater realms shown in scripture.Hi Stu,
So real knowledge is weak science and it defines what is possible by what has been have seen.
How pathetic is that?Quote (Stu @ Mar. 28 2008,20:51) But it is you, not kejonn who has discounted scripture. How do you know that he cannot distinguish between the truth and the lies in scripture? (I might then ask him the same question that leaves Nick and t8 silent: HOW do you know?).
How have I discounted scripture?, I see it as the inerrant, divinely-inspired word of God. But yes, I agree, we should pose this question to Kejonn. Kejonn how do you distinguish between the truth and lies in scripture?Quote Isa.7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. Real knowledge tells us that men are not born of women that have not had sexual intercourse or been through an IVF programme.
Really? How do you know? Have you personally witnessed every conception? Every birth? Your assertion assumes the supernatural does not exist. This has not been proven either. What is your source of “real knowledge” here?Quote Jer.31:15 This is what the Lord says: “A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more.” Real knowledge says that there is no record of mass infanticide by Herod, when you would definitely expect some mention of it by at least one of the truckload of Roman diarists writing at the time.
The New Testament records it. Again, even if there was no written account of this event, could you say with absolute authority that it didn't occur. I'm certain many phenomenal historical moments have come and gone without ever being recorded. What is your source of “real knowledge” here?Quote Hos.6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Real knowledge says you don't live again after you are clinically dead.
Plenty of people have been declared clinically dead and have been revived. So even if I discount the supernatural you still have no argument here. Moreover, you again presume that the there is only the natural, material realm and notheing exists outside of this. How do you know this Stuart. What is your source of “real knowledge” here?Hi again Is1:18
Quote How have I discounted scripture?
Really Is 1:18. Are you trying to be disingenuous?
And since you put not stock in the veracity of the scriptures we'll have to exclude them as a source of reference
Was it kejonn or you who wrote this?Stu: Real knowledge tells us that men are not born of women that have not had sexual intercourse or been through an IVF programme.
Quote Really? How do you know? Have you personally witnessed every conception? Every birth? Your assertion assumes the supernatural does not exist. This has not been proven either. What is your source of “real knowledge” here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki….mammals
It is a perfectly sane conclusion that there is no such thing as the supernatural and that it is a figment of human imaginations. That is exactly the conclusion you have to make based on empirical evidence. While you may not respect empirical evidence I bet you will expect any prescription drugs you may take to be very strictly empirically tested. It is the same science, yet you both require it and mock it.
Stu: Real knowledge says that there is no record of mass infanticide by Herod, when you would definitely expect some mention of it by at least one of the truckload of Roman diarists writing at the time.
Quote The New Testament records it. Again, even if there was no written account of this event, could you say with absolute authority that it didn't occur. I'm certain many phenomenal historical moments have come and gone without ever being recorded. What is your source of “real knowledge” here? Luke has to be wrong in his dating of Jesus’ birth (6CE) for it to predate Herod’s death (4BCE). Matthew might have just made it fit, but Luke hasn’t. The lack of corroborating evidence is recorded in the holy Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_InnocentsOf course, like Luke, the scholars could be wrong.
Stu: Real knowledge says you don't live again after you are clinically dead.
Quote Plenty of people have been declared clinically dead and have been revived. OK, you’re right. The Scripturepedia says: Clinical death is now seen as a medical condition that precedes death rather than actually being dead.
I should have checked more carefully.
I mean’t to say dead. Doornail dead. Brown bread (that’s Cockney Rhyming slang to the uninitiated).
Quote So even if I discount the supernatural you still have no argument here.
I think you should disagree that Jesus was revived. That would not bode well for your salvation.Quote Moreover, you again presume that the there is only the natural, material realm and notheing exists outside of this. How do you know this Stuart. What is your source of “real knowledge” here?
That is my conclusion, based on the only rational interpretation of the evidence. If you want to postulate the supernatural that is fine. You will not find me a willing believer if you cannot produce unequivocal evidence.Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 28 2008,03:09) Hi Stu,
You divert.
At this stage KJ believes Jesus existed.
He is inconvinced of the fact that he is the Jewish messiah.
I'll agree with that
. In what way he existed is not clear, and what words he actually said cannot be verified, but yes I believe in a historical Jesus.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2008,22:33) Hi KJ,
Do you alone have this key to real UNDERSTANDING?
No, it seems 2/3 of the people on this planet have grasped similar ideas
.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 27 2008,22:52) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 28 2008,15:03) Real knowledge will show that –according to the Hebrew OT — Jesus could not be the promised Messiah. Real knowledge will show that God saw human sacrifice as evil. Real knowledge will show that no one can pay for the sins of another. Real knowledge would shatter faith in false things.
Alright Kejonn. What “real knowledge” has led you to the conclusion that Yeshua is not the Messiah. And since you put no stock at all in the veracity of the scriptures we'll have to exclude them as a source of reference…..What have you got for us?
Haha, that's rich. The problem with this setup is that, you, as a fundamentalist Christian, DO believe in the “veracity” of the scriptures. So all I have to do is use your own scriptures against you. It was that kind of progression for me, you know, knowledge after faith? Here's how it worked:
(1) In trying to see where I could find Jesus in the OT during a debate about pre-existence, I started seeing where many messianic passages did not match Jesus.
(2) At the point that I concluded that Jesus was not the promised Jesus messiah, I investigated the Noahidic covenant. But then I found that it was likely just the invention of Rabbis to offer an alternative to Jesus for “Gentiles”.
(3) In that investigation, I became appalled with the actions the Jews took and then said God told them to do. So much death, so much destruction. Could the God of love who was supposed to be Jesus' father be the same God?
(4) When I tried to find some information about what both Jews and Christians believed about such wanton destruction, I stumbled across a Zoroastrian website. It was in the Gathas of Zarathushtra that I encountered a view of God that didn't have Him playing favorites, making a list of “dos” and “don'ts” to be righteous, or forcing people to believe in an obscure Jewish preacher from the 1st century Middle East.What kills me about fundamentalist Christians who don't like it when someone says Jesus is not messiah is they use the old ploy of “prove it, but you can't use the bible because you don't believe in it”. Well duh. But you fail to see that the proof is in the very scriptures themselves.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 27 2008,22:52) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 28 2008,15:03) Real knowledge will show that –according to the Hebrew OT — Jesus could not be the promised Messiah. Real knowledge will show that God saw human sacrifice as evil. Real knowledge will show that no one can pay for the sins of another. Real knowledge would shatter faith in false things.
Alright Kejonn. What “real knowledge” has led you to the conclusion that Yeshua is not the Messiah. And since you put no stock at all in the veracity of the scriptures we'll have to exclude them as a source of reference…..What have you got for us?
Oh, and I'll prove that Jesus was not the Jewish messiah without scripture IF and only if you can prove he was , without scripture
.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 28 2008,04:06) Kejonn how do you distinguish between the truth and lies in scripture?
I don't anymore. So much of it is in doubt in my mind because of the view of Gd presented therein that it has become a fascinating view into the mindset of a historical people to me rather than anything I could view as literal truth. I am reading a book called Who Wrote the Bible and it is utterly fascinating. The level of politics in the OT is cool. This faction of priests against that, Israel against Judah, and mostly due to the actions taken by Solomon. Just fascinating.Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 28 2008,23:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2008,22:33) Hi KJ,
Do you alone have this key to real UNDERSTANDING?
No, it seems 2/3 of the people on this planet have grasped similar ideas.
Hi KJ,
More. Many more.
The road is wide and most choose it.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 29 2008,04:52) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 28 2008,23:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2008,22:33) Hi KJ,
Do you alone have this key to real UNDERSTANDING?
No, it seems 2/3 of the people on this planet have grasped similar ideas.
Hi KJ,
More. Many more.
The road is wide and most choose it.
2.1 billion out of 6 billion is about 1/3.65% of teenagers profess non-belief. Most of the mainstream churches are down to small numbers of older folk.
Christianity is primarily for people who are of a generation that learned to accept authority with little questioning.The Pope is having some sway in his favourite hunting grounds amongst the poor and oppressed, and the defacto christian theocracy in the US gives the impression that christianity is on the march, but that distortion does not really reflect the rest of the Western world.
Why do you say “More. Many more?
Stuart
Hi KJ,
Many many more
All who are not in Christ are driven by the spirit of the air.Eph2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
