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Nick, why do you post in thread that I can not respond in? Here is what you said in another thread
Quote Hi KJ,
Does love still drive you?
Yes, even more so now than ever before. Love is a common emotion for humanity regardless of religious affiliation. It is certainly not monopolized by Abrahamic faith. In fact, one could argue that the belief in the God of Abraham in its variations (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) has resulted in the untimely death of millions of our fellow man. The Hebrew people even recorded such wanton death in their holy scriptures.Hi KJ,
This is what you posted in the other thread
“Yesterday while browsing I came across a post where someone questioned the different renderings of above verse in the various translations. The question was in relation to taking from or adding to the Book of Revelation, and thereby assuming the KJV translation was the original and that the others were in danger of disobeying this order. I could not find the post again hence this new thread. Anyway…lets look at a small study of this verse:KJV – Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
NASB – Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Now, before we go further and cross reference, lets look at the symbolism of the two renderings.
The KJV rendering is good, but do we really obtain access to the tree of life merely by keeping the commandments? As someone stated elsewhere, we don't keep the commandments to obtain salvation but we do so because we have salvation. The greatest of commandments are to love God and love people. Simplification, but the key is in them: if we can develop a love relationship with God — which is only possible by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, His Holy Spirit — then we can in turn truly love people. For who else loves all people but God Himself? Thus, if we share in His love, we can love people. Once we do these greatest of all commandments, the rest are a walk in the park because they are merely an extension of these.
Now we move on the the NASB rendering, which is basically shared by the NIV, HSCB, Darby, and several others. Do you understand the meaning of “wash their robes”? Look back to Revelation 7:13-15
KJV – And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
NASB – Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. “For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
What is it that grants us eternal life and salvation? Is it merely keeping the commandments? If so, why did Jesus even have to come and die? No, it is the blood of the Lamb which allows us to access the tree of life, not merely our actions. By keeping the commandments we show we love God, and I've covered how we are able to love Him
1 John 5:3 (NASB) – For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
And finally, both Revelation 22:14 and 7:14 refer back to Zechariah 3:3-5 (NASB)
Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel. He spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, “Remove the filthy garments from him” Again he said to him, “See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes. “Then I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments, while the angel of the LORD was standing by.
I hope this helps you see that while we cannot know which rendering is correct, we can see validity in both and that God's truth still comes forth. It is not we who should fear what has or has not been removed from or added to Revelation, but whether or not we obey His instructions given to us in the Bible. Not out of duty but out of love. “
Great teaching.
Who has bewitched you?Come to think of it, love and devotion appears to be more prevalent in the canine species than many other. With the exception of Pit Bulls it seems.
Bewitched? I'm not into Wicca. I'm into my fellow man and the evidence of God found therein. That and creation itself and the wonders yet to be revealed. I than my Creator for the beauty of it all.
Nick writes:
It was necessary to fulfill scripture that the Christ should die as a sacrifice for sin.Question:
Where is the scripture that says the promised Messiah must die as a sacrifice for sin?Nick writes:
Hi,
Faith is what connects us to God.
Doubt damages that vital connection.I haven't found that doubt damages anything vital to my connection with my Creator. In fact, it draws me closer to him because I am in need of guidance and direction.
I think Christians are afraid of doubting. They are taught to not doubt. They are taught that those who do are the antichrist. Humbug! Thomas doubted, among other's. He said he wouldn't believe until he touched Jesus. Well, we don't have that luxury today – we cannot touch the physical Jesus. So is our doubting more serious and cause for alarm? Surely we must be silenced and left to question in private. Why? Because it will upset the sleeping believer's. If they wake, they may begin to question too…..
Hi mandy,
The Truth said that it is written
Lk24
” 45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
So keep searching.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2008,15:54) Hi mandy,
The Truth said that it is written
Lk24
” 45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
So keep searching.
“….thus it is written….” yes, so the NT says. But where is the ref? It doesn't refer back to anything in the OT where it eludes to it being “written”.Don't you find that odd?
Do you think it was really reduced from oral tradition? Must be?
BTW, thank you Kejonn for starting this thread. It makes it alot easier to be a part of this forum with a general board we can respond to other's through.
Quote (Mandy @ Feb. 27 2008,22:15) Nick writes:
It was necessary to fulfill scripture that the Christ should die as a sacrifice for sin.Question:
Where is the scripture that says the promised Messiah must die as a sacrifice for sin?
This will be the stock answer- Isa 53:10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
Isa 53:11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.That is the NASB, which is biased towards Christian thinking. Let's look at another Christian rendering
- Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.“When his soul makes an offering for guilt” completely changes the meaning. This is about the Suffering Servant seeking atonement NOT being atonement for others. That concept is totally out of line with OT Jewish theology.
Quote (Mandy @ Feb. 28 2008,15:53) Nick writes:
Hi,
Faith is what connects us to God.
Doubt damages that vital connection.I haven't found that doubt damages anything vital to my connection with my Creator. In fact, it draws me closer to him because I am in need of guidance and direction.
I think Christians are afraid of doubting. They are taught to not doubt. They are taught that those who do are the antichrist. Humbug! Thomas doubted, among other's. He said he wouldn't believe until he touched Jesus. Well, we don't have that luxury today – we cannot touch the physical Jesus. So is our doubting more serious and cause for alarm? Surely we must be silenced and left to question in private. Why? Because it will upset the sleeping believer's. If they wake, they may begin to question too…..
I still can't see why faith is a virtue. If a god is real, why can't we relate to it in material terms, like we do with everything else (including all the stuff he is alleged to have created)?Stuart
I suppose because God is not material; he is not like his creation because he is not created. He is spirit; he is invisible.
Quote (Mandy @ Feb. 28 2008,18:40) I suppose because God is not material; he is not like his creation because he is not created. He is spirit; he is invisible.
But if god created everything he must have mastery over the material world. Why not apppear to us in material terms? Spposedly he can do anything, including transcending whatever different existences there might be. Why put up the barrier of faith without evidence? A god of this kind would know that some of us use the brain 'he gave us' to question the world. Why does 'he' make it difficult for those of us most prepared to use the mental faculties he supposedly created for us?Stuart
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 28 2008,13:54) Come to think of it, love and devotion appears to be more prevalent in the canine species than many other.
Hi kejohn,Do you think that it is a coincidence that dog is God spelled backwards.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 28 2008,07:09) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 28 2008,13:54) Come to think of it, love and devotion appears to be more prevalent in the canine species than many other.
Hi kejohn,Do you think that it is a coincidence that dog is God spelled backwards.
Tim
Haha, and “cat” spelled backwards is “tac” which we know stands for “the anti-christ”
.Quote (Stu @ Feb. 28 2008,19:30) Quote (Mandy @ Feb. 28 2008,18:40) I suppose because God is not material; he is not like his creation because he is not created. He is spirit; he is invisible.
But if god created everything he must have mastery over the material world. Why not apppear to us in material terms? Spposedly he can do anything, including transcending whatever different existences there might be. Why put up the barrier of faith without evidence? A god of this kind would know that some of us use the brain 'he gave us' to question the world. Why does 'he' make it difficult for those of us most prepared to use the mental faculties he supposedly created for us?Stuart
Perhaps God wants us to question, and in the searching we grow and mature in a way that would not happen if we were provided all the answers?Perhaps God's nature is so vast that to appear in material, would be a paradoxical limitation of that which is without limit.
“Why does 'he' make it difficult for those of us most prepared to use the mental faculties he supposedly created for us?”
The hardest tasks are always given to those best prepared to handle them.
Cato,
Are you that wise man in your Avatar? I think so.Yes, you have a lot of good things to say. I like it.
Have a great day, Cato!
MandyQuote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 29 2008,00:09) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 28 2008,13:54) Come to think of it, love and devotion appears to be more prevalent in the canine species than many other.
Hi kejohn,Do you think that it is a coincidence that dog is God spelled backwards.
Tim
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 28 2008,19:30) Why does 'he' make it difficult for those of us most prepared to use the mental faculties he supposedly created for us?
Contrary to poplular belief here, I believe that God digs folks who use their brain for reasoning. Abe was a smart man. God said to him, “….come on, let's reason together….”. Abe was a friend to God – now that says something!Think about it, what good would it do a superior being to have created a human race that cannot discuss things with him? Not that he needs our counsel, but he sure enjoys our company. Do you enjoy the company of those who are far less intelligent than yourself? Possibly for a while, but you wouldn't choose to spend a lot of time with such person. There would be no stimulation or attraction after a while to keep you engaged.
I know the NT says we are to be like little children, but Paul also says we should grow up in our faith and move on to meatier things. I believe God likes it when we use our minds to question, search, challenge, wonder, and believe OR excercise our free-will to choose otherwise. If he didn't want us to have a choice we would have been hard-wired as robots.
I don't believe the faithful without question are any more precious to God than those of us who sit and ask all the questions.
Quote (Mandy @ Feb. 28 2008,10:58) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 28 2008,19:30) Why does 'he' make it difficult for those of us most prepared to use the mental faculties he supposedly created for us?
Contrary to poplular belief here, I believe that God digs folks who use their brain for reasoning. Abe was a smart man. God said to him, “….come on, let's reason together….”. Abe was a friend to God – now that says something!
Sorry to bring Zarathrushtra back in, but you catch the underlying theme in his Gathas that we work alongside of God in an effort to make this world better. In that aspect, we are indeed a friend of God as we work hand-in-hand to accomplish something worthwhile. Don't friends often do that?Quote Think about it, what good would it do a superior being to have created a human race that cannot discuss things with him? Not that he needs our counsel, but he sure enjoys our company. Do you enjoy the company of those who are far less intelligent than yourself? Possibly for a while, but you wouldn't choose to spend a lot of time with such person. There would be no stimulation or attraction after a while to keep you engaged.
The only problem is that we speak in words, while we can not be certain how He speaks. Is that a true form of communication? Rather, I find He speaks through His Creation and in us by motivating us to move forward. He indeed imbued us with intelligence and reason, and I certainly believe He wants us to use that. See what man has accomplished through math & science and other fields! That, IMHO, is one way God communicates in us by inspiring us to improve.Quote I know the NT says we are to be like little children, but Paul also says we should grow up in our faith and move on to meatier things. I believe God likes it when we use our minds to question, search, challenge, wonder, and believe OR excercise our free-will to choose otherwise. If he didn't want us to have a choice we would have been hard-wired as robots. I don't believe the faithful without question are any more precious to God than those of us who sit and ask all the questions.
Actually, truth be told, He might be frustrated with those who sit back and let some book written thousands of years ago keep them from progressing. Humanity is moving forward in so many ways, but the one biggest failing is that we are using up what God created in the process. By that, I mean that man is slowly but surely damaging God's creation by our progress. But that does not mean we can't continue to progress, but that we must find ways to do so that do not harm what we have. I think we have that capacity if we can all get on board with it. That will be the most difficult thing to do.
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