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Mandy……..God the father wan't childern he can relate to in a relationship of Father sons and daughters, not just robots but childern, who have experienced right and wrong, so to (cause ) that to happen, He put us in these physical bodies and as a result physical or carnel influences work in us (causing) us to react to things as we do. It was no accident the tree of good and evil was put in front of Adam and Eve and was no accident they were tempted, it was all planned for man to fall temperely. God i believe want us to live and gain experience it's his way of teaching us, and desiplining Us. Didn't Jesus say you shall all be taught by God. This is God our Fathers world and we are all learnning things all the time, It's what He wanted to happen or He would have stop it. It was all need full to form the relationship He wants. And part of this relationship is who is the one who decides what's good and whats evil, because life will always demand this from us, now and in the future. We must come to realize the Father now or in the future is the one who decides whats Good and evil, not our own so called (Free wills.) You remember when Jesus said take my yoke upon you for my burdon is light & ect, when we are yoked with the Father, our load is lightened our burdons are less. Jesus was yoked with the Father but the Father was the stronger one and carried most of the load and it's that way with us also. But you see Jesus could not be teamed with God if He was exercising His own will instead the of The Fathers Will. So it is with us when we Yoke with our Father we must do His will not ours . God the Father causes that to happen by changing our thinking to see things His way and some times we have to go through some perty painfull things in this life for that to accure. Every right and every wrong has existed for all eternity and always will exist, and if we were left to live for ever by our own so called (free wills) we would all destory ourselves eventually, that's why God must indwell Us inorder to cause us to live right and make right choices. But they are not free will choices, they are caused choices and the effect is a happy and joyfull life.
Just the way i see it sis, peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 30 2008,18:25) Mandy……..God the father wan't childern he can relate to in a relationship of Father sons and daughters, not just robots but childern, who have experienced right and wrong, so to (cause ) that to happen, He put us in these physical bodies and as a result physical or carnel influences work in us (causing) us to react to things as we do. It was no accident the tree of good and evil was put in front of Adam and Eve and was no accident they were tempted, it was all planned for man to fall temperely. God i believe want us to live and gain experience it's his way of teaching us, and desiplining Us. Didn't Jesus say you shall all be taught by God. This is God our Fathers world and we are all learnning things all the time, It's what He wanted to happen or He would have stop it. It was all need full to form the relationship He wants. And part of this relationship is who is the one who decides what's good and whats evil, because life will always demand this from us, now and in the future. We must come to realize the Father now or in the future is the one who decides whats Good and evil, not our own so called (Free wills.) You remember when Jesus said take my yoke upon you for my burdon is light & ect, when we are yoked with the Father, our load is lightened our burdons are less. Jesus was yoked with the Father but the Father was the stronger one and carried most of the load and it's that way with us also. But you see Jesus could not be teamed with God if He was exercising His own will instead the of The Fathers Will. So it is with us when we Yoke with our Father we must do His will not ours . God the Father causes that to happen by changing our thinking to see things His way and some times we have to go through some perty painfull things in this life for that to accure. Every right and every wrong has existed for all eternity and always will exist, and if we were left to live for ever by our own so called (free wills) we would all destory ourselves eventually, that's why God must indwell Us inorder to cause us to live right and make right choices. But they are not free will choices, they are caused choices and the effect is a happy and joyfull life. Just the way i see it sis, peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Good evening Gene, hope you are doing well.I noticed in this post that you said Yah decides what is good and evil. I am not quite so sure I agree with that. I believe that Yah IS good, and as such He feels great conviction to defend all that is good and destroy that which is evil. I don't feel He has just gone around making up what is good and what is evil and then follows the good of which He has decided.
Quote (Jodi @ May 01 2008,07:32) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 30 2008,09:54) Jodi, I'm a bit confused (no surprise), um, we do not have “reptilian” brains. Can you explain where you got your information from? Thanks.
Hi Mandy,This is a subject I really like. Something told me awhile back that the serpent did not indeed represent a fallen angel. I started to investigate what might the serpent represent. Knowing that Genesis was written after the Israelites fled Egypt and recalling Egyptians use of the serpent for symbolic reasons I started my investigation there with the Egyptians and their snakes thinking that the author of Genesis might use a symbol from Egypt that the Israelites would have been familiar with. I discovered that the Egyptians made a connection between the serpent and the human mind, so I did a word search of the two and found that not only do scientists refer to part of our brain as a reptilian brain, but it is also shaped inside our brain like a serpent. I was very ecstatic when I read all this to say the least.
Here are some links you might find interesting
Chapter 9 in
http://www.vernonjohns.org/nonracists/dvhbrain.htmlhttp://www.primatesociety.com/Into/survival/timeline/textEvol.html
http://www.atam.org/SerpentBrain.html
Let me say that I am not a believer that man evolved from primitive life forms, but that our Creator used the same building blocks to create us as he did other animals.
One of the sites also says that the brain can be divided up into 3 different parts and it's called the “Triune” brain.I bet the Trinitarians would be happy to hear that.
I'm still reading the sites, I just thought that was funny.
Why does God appear to “cause” some to make good decisions while other's appear to make bad decisions. Does the cause-and-affect thing only work on certain ones?
Jodi…..I may not have been clear enough on that part, let me try to explain the reason i stated it. Jodi if we believe God is (ALL) knowing and the creator of all things then that has to include good and evil, why?, because life consists of good and evil, If you notice God told Adam and Eve not to (EAT), the word eat is symbolic for take to themselves as we do when we eat something, then He went on to say “from the tree” the word tree is also symbolic for, that which produces from it self, like a tree does. So what was God really telling Adam and Eve, i think was this,> you can take to your selves everything that produces from it self except, you shall not take to yourselves that which produces from yourselves good and evil. because when you do that you will eventually surely die. God did not say if they looked on it they would die, but if they eat, or took to themselves to produce good and evil they would die. But you have to ask yourself why did God put the tree of good and evil there in the first place and cause them to be tempted. I believe because good and evil are necessary to have a Godly understanding. Look what He said after they ate or took to themselves good and evil, God response was, look they have become as we are Knowing (knowing here is not just knowledge about something) but an eminent relationship with, like where it says's Adam know Eve it meant a eminent relationship with. God created both good and evil He said He did why, because good explains evil and evil explains good, it's impossible to know one with out the other, this is where we get wisdom and its where God got wisdom also, It's by knowing (experiencing) good and evil . It's like if i said to you that's up, you wouldn't know what i was talking about if you didn't know what down was or visa verse, because one explains the other like, right explains left and left explains right we have to have the opposites in order to get meaning it's the same with good you could never have known good without evil and visa verse. Adam and Eve was alive with out Knowing either one of them and were blind as bats and would have remained that way to this day if they did not take to themselves the knowledge of good by taking the Knowledge of Evil also. When they did their eyes were opened and they began to be wise and realize things. God know all along what they were going to do and wanted them to in order that they could be more like Him and learn to hate Evil by experiencing it. God is Good and does want us to reject evil, but He also knows that in order for that to happen we must experience evil ourselves, so He allows it to teach us and make us wiser , When the Women saw that the fruit was able to make one wise, she wasn't wrong is Her thinking , But if God is all Knowing he know it was going to happen all along.
You also said you don't think He is going around making up what is good and what is evil , no He is not going around making it up, He made it up in the beginning of His creation, good and evil always existed they had to why because you can't know one with out the other, its what balances our understandings. its vital to life to know what good and whats evil because it exists and always will. God will not destroy good and evil, not more then He would cut of your left hand and leave you unbalanced with only the right hand. He can't remove north from south or east from west or up from down because if he took one of each of them away he would destroy the other so my conclusion is evil will always exist and good will always also. Have you noticed every thing with opposites always give direction which gives guidence to us. Jodi I believe every thing was and is in the will and plan of God from the start to the finish, it was and is.
I hope this explains better what i was talking about.peace to you and yours…………..gene
Hey Gene,
To make your posts easier to read, would you mind breaking the longer ones up into smaller paragraphs? Thanks, bro. It's just easier on the eyes and less daunting to read. I want to make sure I catch everything you post!
Since this came up in discussion: the idea of the reptilian brain is a theory developed by Paul MacLean that attempts to examine the evolution of the human brain. According to this theory, the following three distinct brains emerged successively in the course of evolution and now co-inhabit the human skull: Reptillian, Limbic (mammals) and Neocortex (primates).
The reptilian brain, the oldest of the three, controls the body's vital functions such as heart rate, breathing, body temperature and balance and includes the main structures found in a reptile's brain: the brainstem and the cerebellum.To All……….It says's there is nothing new under the sun, if we believe that, then we must acknowledge that includes all knowledge also and therefore no will is original, God is not in the business preserving (OUR) Will's, He's in the business preserving His WILL, “thy kingdom come thy will be done”, it says.
So we see there is only (ONE) WILL, when it comes to the Kingdom of God. Man uses his will as a independent function from God and it makes them feel as a God themselves causing them to think their destiny is up to themselves and in no way is subject to the laws of God and just like is says ” neither can be”, remember I am describing the natural carnal mind Here. That mind is all self controlled and is stubborn and self driven.
There is a place where God shows His thoughts on a self (Willed Person) its where He told the Israelites that they could redeem their first born children as well as the animals & etc, but notice when it came to a donkey or ass, which carries a symbol of a stubborn self willed being, He says's if you choose not to redeem it you shall break is neck, in other words God did not want it, so you either keep it or Kill it.
In this we see what God thinks of self willed people.But there's hope because just as a carnal minded person is driven by His self Will, (NOT FREE WILL) a regenerated Mind is driven or caused to do God's Will, which is a perfect way to live and enjoy eternal life. But non of it is free will rather The Carnal or the Spiritual mind its the product of cause and effect, if you are yoked with the Father you will walk as He does, the proof (JESUS).
Free Will is simple a lie a hocks that lets men and women think they are a God unto themselves, it produces the Man Of Sin and they even try to Make Jesus into a God also causing Him to be displayed as a man of Sin also which He will destroy at His coming. 2Ths, makes that clear He will destroy all the (I God ) ideologies in the earth including the one about Himself being GOD. Comming to do the Will of some one else is quite different then comming to do your will.
Simple put all Will's work by Cause , and the effect is what we do. May God's (WILL) cause all of us to walk in HIS way's a perfect way, As Jesus Did .
IMO…..peace and love to you all………….gene
Quote but notice when it came to a donkey or ass, which carries a symbol of a stubborn self willed being, He says's if you choose not to redeem it you shall break is neck, in other words God did not want it, so you either keep it or Kill it.
In this we see what God thinks of self willed people.
Great. More killing.
Um, there are times I want to break my daughters neck because she is so stubborn and willful!
But not literally, of course. Again, I'm having a hard time buying this for a dollar because we are God's creation – we are children. How can he treat us so harshly if he is the one “causing” us to do good in the first place? If we do not choose the good, it is because he is not causing us too? Right?Quote if you are yoked with the Father you will walk as He does, the proof (JESUS).
At this rate, no one is yoked with the Father then. No one can walk like Jesus did…..he was supposedly perfect. He had no sin. We are part of the category of, “All have sinned and fallen short….”. We will sin until we die, whether willfully or unknowingly. Why? Because God made us that way! According to your theory, he has willed that we have so-called choices (to teach us), and we are “caused” to do the right. But what of those who choose the wrong? They are killed, broken necks, just like all the jackasses.
Quote Comming to do the Will of some one else is quite different then comming to do your will.
True. But let's not forget that Jesus begged for HIS WILL to be heard and followed…….three times!Hey, thanks bro for making the paragraphs, it's easy as pie now to read. Have a great day.
MandyMay God's (WILL) cause all of us to walk in HIS way's a perfect way, As Jesus Did .
********************It must not be God's will for us to be like Jesus then – because we will never be perfect.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 01 2008,13:25) Mandy……..God the father wan't childern he can relate to in a relationship of Father sons and daughters, not just robots but childern, who have experienced right and wrong, so to (cause ) that to happen, He put us in these physical bodies and as a result physical or carnel influences work in us (causing) us to react to things as we do. It was no accident the tree of good and evil was put in front of Adam and Eve and was no accident they were tempted, it was all planned for man to fall temperely. God i believe want us to live and gain experience it's his way of teaching us, and desiplining Us. Didn't Jesus say you shall all be taught by God. This is God our Fathers world and we are all learnning things all the time, It's what He wanted to happen or He would have stop it. It was all need full to form the relationship He wants. And part of this relationship is who is the one who decides what's good and whats evil, because life will always demand this from us, now and in the future. We must come to realize the Father now or in the future is the one who decides whats Good and evil, not our own so called (Free wills.) You remember when Jesus said take my yoke upon you for my burdon is light & ect, when we are yoked with the Father, our load is lightened our burdons are less. Jesus was yoked with the Father but the Father was the stronger one and carried most of the load and it's that way with us also. But you see Jesus could not be teamed with God if He was exercising His own will instead the of The Fathers Will. So it is with us when we Yoke with our Father we must do His will not ours . God the Father causes that to happen by changing our thinking to see things His way and some times we have to go through some perty painfull things in this life for that to accure. Every right and every wrong has existed for all eternity and always will exist, and if we were left to live for ever by our own so called (free wills) we would all destory ourselves eventually, that's why God must indwell Us inorder to cause us to live right and make right choices. But they are not free will choices, they are caused choices and the effect is a happy and joyfull life. Just the way i see it sis, peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
On the nature of evil, I have a slightly different take. I don't think God created evil, for evil is in essence opposition to God, therefore God would not oppose himself. Evil arises independently as a result of ignorance and the ego's need to prove will and independence. For in the end the only proof of our will is disobedience to God's will. That God allows evil is self evident, it appears to be an unfortunate by-product of spiritual evolution, but regretfully a necessary one, for some of the reasons Gene mentioned in his post. In some circles evil is further defined into two types:
Positive Evil – those evils which teach us good by contrast and provide temptations to overcome and make us stronger.
Negative Evil – often implied demonic, the forces of chaos, that which seeks to hold back human evolution a kind of misery loves company attitude.If we take an analogy to raising our own children, kids when bad to one another do so out of ignorance, they really don't understand the effects of their actions on others looking only at their own desires. Teenagers rebel to prove their independence and supposed adulthood. When they reach true adulthood they (assuming of course decent parents) usually realize their attitudes and rebellions were foolish exercises in ego and lack of self control that only in the end hurt themselves. The spiritual evolution of humanity I think develops likewise. I believe God has the patience to see us grow for he knows in the end we will, like the prodigal son in fable, return to God having through our struggles gained wisdom and knowledge that those who never left can not have.
Quote (Cato @ May 01 2008,11:16) Evil arises independently as a result of ignorance and the ego's need to prove will and independence.
Great point!God is the source of good. Anything that is not of God, or unified with God will produce evil.
Truth is good, lies are evil. Yah did not create good and evil. He did not create the lies, we produce the lies out of our ignorance and as Cato said the need to prove our own will.
I too believe Cato that there is an unfortunate byproduct that lies within the intelligent self aware creature we call human beings.
I believe that the unfortunate byproduct lies in that fact that we are the created and Yah is the Creator. We are independent creatures but yet we are completely dependent on our Creator for everything. We were made in His image, but we can never be like Him completely. We are born ignorant and our minds are capable of creating deceit. We are not God but we must become like him in order to have life. I think our problem is that our self will, which is necessary for us to have if we are going to be self aware individuals, starts out relying on the self to fulfill its desires. We ignorantly fulfill those desires in a selfish manner. The self will must be taught and it must undergo a transformation and there is only one source by which that transformation can be made and that of course we know is Yah.
Cato…..Evil is not in opposition it is just much part of life as good is, the tree in the garden was no just the tree of good but evil also and it was all (ONE) tree. Not two separate trees one of good and one of evil. Evil has existed as long as good has they are (REQUIRED) to explain and give meaning to each other. You or no one else could possible (KNOW) good with out evil giving it meaning. No more than you could know up without down or north without south or left without right or cold without hot. Each of these opposites explain each other you couldn't know one without the other and that includes good and evil and God created it all He even said He created good and evil.
Our subject is not good and evil, but (FREE WILLS) and I still contend that there is no such thing as Free Will all wills are the product of self and therefore are a function of what's in self and whats in self was put there from the outside, you weren't born the way you think, you became the way you think and that's what causes the choices a person makes and has nothing to do with (FREE) at all. We think it's free choices because it's coming from within us, but the facts are whats in us causes us to make the choices we make and has nothing to do with (FREE) at all and never did. We all are prisoners of our thinking, that's why Jesus came to set the prisoners Free. We are held captive by our thinking and there is nothing free about that.
IMO…….peace to you and yours………….gene
Mandy…….God didn't tell them to just Kill the animal, He said if they didn't want to (redeem) it to break its neck then. But the bible shows were God did kill lots of people at times for stubberness and rebellion. We have to remember there is both goodness and severity with God. God will always maintain His sovereignty no matter what we all think and in the end it will be His will that will be done no matter what we think. He is the Father and we the children and no matter what the children think the father's will will be done. We all know His Will is best for all of us and lest i Make him out to be a dictator i might add the Father wants us all to be free to choose our desires as long as it's not an abuse or hurting others and I know we all do that at times i know i have, but the father is able to bring us to the full stature of Christ in time. The Father made each of us unique in character positions of reasons are all acquired differently but we are to Him and should be to each other one big Family.
love to you and yours……………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 02 2008,13:15) Cato…..Evil is not in opposition it is just much part of life as good is, the tree in the garden was no just the tree of good but evil also and it was all (ONE) tree. GB
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (Gen 2:9)
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Gen 2:17)
These verses need no special interpretation.
It is the Tree of ”knowledge of good and evil”. Everything that God created he said it was “Good”. The tree had no inherent evil or good in itself.
The tree was placed there for man to “choose”.
Adam and eve had no outside influences that could have caused them to disobey because they were perfect and without sin.
If God causes both good and evil, that would be self defeating. The Lord said “thou shalt not eat of it:’ So if it was the Lords will for them to not to eat of it and Adam and Eve had no free choice, then they would have been “caused” to not eat of it simply because the Lord gave the commandment not to. The simple Idea of the tree of life and the tree of “knowledge of good and evil” are there simply for man to “Choose”.
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. (Josh 24:15)
Light does not dwell with darkness. To say that men have no “Free will to choose” is to make null and void words like “rebellion”, “disobedience”, and Sin.
How could man be accountable of any wrong doing if he has no free will?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 02 2008,13:15)
Not two separate trees one of good and one of evil. Evil has existed as long as good has they are (REQUIRED) to explain and give meaning to each other. You or no one else could possible (KNOW) good with out evil giving it meaning. No more than you could know up without down or north without south or left without right or cold without hot. Each of these opposites explain each other you couldn't know one without the other and that includes good and evil and God created it all He even said He created good and evil.Is there a scripture for this? I suppose then when the New Heavens and the New Earth comes there will have to be evil present to give meaning to all the good we shall share throughout eternity?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 02 2008,13:15)
Our subject is not good and evil, but (FREE WILLS) and I still contend that there is no such thing as Free Will all wills are the product of self and therefore are a function of what's in self and whats in self was put there from the outside, you weren't born the way you think, you became the way you think and that's what causes the choices a person makes and has nothing to do with (FREE) at all.I became the way I am by the “free will choices” I made from the knowledge and influences I heard or experienced from the outside as Cato has so well explained. Yes I am somewhat a product of my environment, however I made conscious choices as to what I would accept as truth or not.
All you have to do is watch a little baby grow and you will see without any outside influence the baby makes a conscious decision to not listen to its parent when it is told to not touch that glass lamp.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 02 2008,13:15)
We think it's free choices because it's coming from within us, but the facts are whats in us causes us to make the choices we make and has nothing to do with (FREE) at all and never did. We all are prisoners of our thinking, that's why Jesus came to set the prisoners Free. We are held captive by our thinking and there is nothing free about that.
IMO…….peace to you and yours………….geneDo what?
You say ”Jesus came to set us free”, but then you say, “We are held captive by our thinking and there is nothing free about that.” This makes no sense.
Being free means just that. There is a war going on in our minds. It is the war of the flesh and Spirit. I am tempted to look at porn. If I do, then God didn’t cause me to. But he does give me his Spirit so I can overcome that temptation by “yielding to him” and submitting “My Will” to his. It is my choice. Not God’s or the devils. This is what it means to have “Free will”.
Otherwise, why would Jesus say “keep my commandments, if I have no free will”?
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Neither *yield* ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but *yield yourselves unto God*, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Know ye not, that to whom ye *yield* yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but *ye have obeyed* from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.Paul found the balance, the key is yielding to the Holy Spirit and letting his Spirit have his way in our lives. It is our choice to be filled with the Holy Spirit and to be led by the Spirit, for we can grieve or quench the Holy Spirit.
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; (Eph 5:18)
Quench not the Spirit. (1 Thess 5:19)
And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Eph 4:20)
I can choose to serve him or I can choose not to, and either way there will be consequences.
That is the definition of “Free will”.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever *will*, let him take the water of life *freely*. (Rev 22:17)
The Old saying is “You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
God doesn’t want robots as not3 has pointed out!
Blessings!
Keith – EXCELLENT POST!
Great scriptures that you pointed out. I knew they were in there, I just didn't want to go and dig. Thanks for doing the work.
Mandy
.WJ……remember this if you say Freely chose God way then you have somewhat to boast, and you are one of the (few) who on your own chose Gods way, congratulation you have saved your self, all the rest of humanity with the exception of a very few will Just have to be thrown into the so called lake of Fire and be burned screaming out for all eternity, by a God called (LOVE). If you understood the true meaning of the word (GRACE) you would realize your so called Free Will had nothing to do with it, and please don't brand me as a Calvinist as martian did because I am not, I don't want to be even remotely associated with that murder who killed the Spain-yard Michel Servetus because he wrote a paper against the trinity doctrine, Calvin preached the trinity and kill people who didn't go along with the teaching. He was a whole hearted Trinitarian. However He did understand we are saved by Grace and that not of ourselves as free will would show, so even one of your own didn't be believe in your own free choices .
WJ…..Check out the meanning of Grace you might be suprised. It impys GOD Caused, if thats true where is Free will there. Plaese show the words FREE WILL in the scriptures, it's not there, i wonder why?.
IMO….gene
God offers salvation but we choose whether to accept it.
God doesn't force salvation on humanity. He allows them to reject him if they want.
Quote (t8 @ May 04 2008,00:11) God offers salvation but we choose whether to accept it. God doesn't force salvation on humanity. He allows them to reject him if they want.
Gene's ideas are that God “causes” us towards the acceptance of salvation. In essence, we are not in control of this “cause and effect” cycle. What do you think, t8?
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