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Gene,
Yes, we are saved by grace, it's a gift from our Father. He knows we are only dust. This miracle could not come from ourselves, nor can a baby save itself when there is a fire. But this doesn't mean that the baby will grow-up and eventually learn for himself that fire can hurt and to get the heck out of a burning building. Shoot, some have even opted to stay in the burning building and take their own lives.
It's their choice to make.
Grace causes us to have the opportunity to change, it doesn't make the decision to change for us. Anyway, that's how I see it.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 30 2008,06:50) To me, if Jesus didn't have a choice, his sacrifice means nothing to me. Nothing. Even as I type this there is a stinge of fear attached to the first sentence. But it's true nonetheless.
Mandy…..>remember Jesus was God's sacrifice for our sin's, He was the Lamb of God who God sacrificed for the Payment of ours sin. In this God takes full responsibility for all sin and pays the requiremen of His own Law with the blood of Jesus. For christ died for the sins of the (whole) world not just ours only, Just as it say's he did. Now because the eternal death penialty has be done away with that doesn't mean Judgements and desplines are done away with does it. We shall all stand before the judgement seat of God and be Judged, Not condemend to an everlating eternal lake of Fire, where people scream out into all eternity in pain. That would make God into the greatest failure and monster that ever lived.
No God is Love and loves all his creation and will deliver and save it all, because He is LOVE.God bless you and yours………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 30 2008,07:25) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 30 2008,06:50) To me, if Jesus didn't have a choice, his sacrifice means nothing to me. Nothing. Even as I type this there is a stinge of fear attached to the first sentence. But it's true nonetheless.
Mandy…..>remember Jesus was God's sacrifice for our sin's, He was the Lamb of God who God sacrificed for the Payment of ours sin. In this God takes full responsibility for all sin and pays the requiremen of His own Law with the blood of Jesus. For christ died for the sins of the (whole) world not just ours only, Just as it say's he did. Now because the eternal death penialty has be done away with that doesn't mean Judgements and desplines are done away with does it. We shall all stand before the judgement seat of God and be Judged, Not condemend to an everlating eternal lake of Fire, where people scream out into all eternity in pain. That would make God into the greatest failure and monster that ever lived.
No God is Love and loves all his creation and will deliver and save it all, because He is LOVE.God bless you and yours………………gene
I know how the story goes.But listen, if Jesus was just the sacrifice for our sins (born, raised and sacrificed), what makes him any different from cattle that are treated the same?
Do you expect to learn anything from cattle that are held for slaughter?
We are supposed to follow this man, Jesus. We are supposed to learn from him. We are supposed to imitate him (for Christ sake!). No irreverence intended, it just seemed appropriate.
How can we do any of this if he was just a lamb held for sacrifice? I don't get it. Maybe I'm too blonde after all.
Hello Everyone,
Mr 3:35 Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother.”
Lu 22:42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
I understand it as Yah's goal is to bring our will into unity with His. Yah has predestined certain people whom He will work His influence successfully so they can be leaders with Christ. Yah shows our will that it is inadequate, it cannot bring about the proper functioning that His Will can provide for us. Yah's genius planning brings our will into this realization.
So what is our will? Our will is free to do that which it desires. Yah worked His will in Yeshua and he overcame his will to follow his fleshly desires and he chose to follow the Spirit. Why did he choose to deny his will? Because Yah was successful in showing Yeshua's brain that man is extremely lacking in all things.
Man's will is drawn by his flesh, his weak flesh controls his will. Man's mind is ignorant and he lives like a wild beast serving his flesh until Yah gives His Spirit of understanding, changing that ignorance to wisdom. With that wisdom man can work against his fleshly desires and serve instead the Spirit of Yah. Man will not be freed completely from his own desires, his own will, until given immortality. The immortality will destroy all man's weaknesses, and completely unite man’s will with his Creators.
Yah’s Will is going to be done on earth as it is in Heaven, however, it is not because we are in anyway robots whom Yah controls, it is because we are predictable and highly influential creatures whom Yah knows how to work with. We MAKE THE CHOICE to serve Yah and follow in Yeshua’s footsteps, this is through Yah’s successful influence.
In time Yah will be successful in bringing all of mankind into righteousness. This is His honor and His glory that He has desired and has willed since the beginning. We were made in His image and we to desire glory and honor and accomplishment within ourselves. Thank goodness we are not robots. Robots do not feel respect for Yah's work, robots cannot take in a sense of accomplishment which I believe Yah desires us to have.
Just how I see it,
Peace and love, Jodi
Mandy…..I am not questining choices we make throusands of them every day, thats, not the issue. The issue is what causes those choices was it our so called (free wills) , or was it somthing in us (causing the choises) i contend that there is somethin causeing them and the have nothing to do with (free will) but cause and effect only. You will pick what is influencing your thinking and what is influencing your thinking has already be put their and thats the cause that drives your choices.
peace and love to youand your……………………..gene
Jodi…….good to hear from you hope everything is OK and the little ones are doing alright. The issue is (FREE)WILL and the and according to Socrates and science and psychologist and others as well as myself their is no such thin as free will because all will are influenced by what is in a person they have proven that a people do what was already learned behavior, and that influences their choices, all through there lives. So cause in at the core of what people choose. They call that causality and i tend to agree with them and unless God causes the change we simply would not. It first must be installed in us, i know this sounds much like a computer, but we are far,far,far, more advanced then any computer, but in a way God is in control of our minds as He has proven thought History or how could He change and transform our thinking if He isn't causing it to come about.
this subject is very important to understand. Once I began to understand the extent of God's control over and in our lives, it brought great peace. I have more hope for everyone then I ever had before, because i can see how God will save everyone he created and how our salvation does not depend on us but on God. There is a great future for everyone who ever existed because the whole creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption, and not by their free will, but by the power of a loving God, who loves all and will save all,
“YET AS BY FIRE” or judgements. Because our God is the consumming Fire that will cleans all. IMO.Peace and love to you and yours …………….gene
Hello Gene,
I am still just a little confused. Let me just talk some stuff out here….We have a will and Yah has a will. My will is not free, it is controlled by the input stored in my brain. Yah's will has allowed mankind's will to store input based on it's own observations and not solely on the truth of Yah. Yah however, has appointed different times to different people of when He will give His input into our brain. I am not free, I am a product of my environment of which Yah has complete control over.
Quote (Jodi @ April 30 2008,08:51) I am not free, I am a product of my environment of which Yah has complete control over.
Hey sis,Can you elaborate on this idea?
Being a “product of your environment” can be true when you are talking about how you were raised and so on. But I have a feeling you mean something else? Thanks.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 29 2008,16:53) Quote (Jodi @ April 30 2008,08:51) I am not free, I am a product of my environment of which Yah has complete control over.
Hey sis,Can you elaborate on this idea?
Being a “product of your environment” can be true when you are talking about how you were raised and so on. But I have a feeling you mean something else? Thanks.
Actually Mandy, I meant to put a question mark at the end of that sentence.We all know that we make choices according to the input we have received since we were born. So, by this very fact, do we not truly then have free will? At the very least isn't are free will limited?
Yah did indeed limit us by making death a reality. He put our mind in chains, for because we desire life we are consumed with doing that which is necessary to survive.
to all…..the key is the definition of (FREE) Will. The definition i heard was to choose something without (any influence) of any kind whether past experiences or teachings of any kind, it is to pick or choose without causality being presnt. To me that is impossible, so Free Will can't exist IMO. I believe thats why you doin't see the word (FREE WILL) in the scriptures no where, because God has put purpose in all things, so cause has to be present in all things. And another interesting thought is if God is Creating us into his Image then he must be influencing us and that is causing us to clone or copy Him. When He said be you perfect for I am perfect and Be ye Holy for i am Holy, well how could we by our “free will” perfome that, when it say's the carnel mind is emimity to God ( that means the natural minds we are born with is a eneny of God,),” and is not subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be.” So whats this saying isn't it that a natural minds would never choose (by it's own so called free will) to serve God, we have to have something put in Us to cause us to choose God's ways. And that would be cause and the effect would be we would Walk in God's ways. For we are (created) unto good works and God works in us (Both) to will and do His good pleasure. The will of man must be put to death and replaced by God's Will. In the kingdom of God only One will, will be done, Jesus said thy kingdom come thy WILL be done. Man does not have the ability to choose right He must be guided or caused to make the right choices, and that what God does in who ever He indwells.
peace to you all……………………….gene
Quote I believe thats why you doin't see the word (FREE WILL) in the scriptures no where, because God has put purpose in all things, so cause has to be present in all things.
No, we don't see “free will” but we do see, as Jodi pointed out, Jesus saying things like, “….not my will but yours….”. This is saying that he doesn't necessarily want to do the thing, but OK, I'll submit to what you want Father. In other words, he had a choice. The beautiful part of the gospel, to me, is that Jesus had a choice and he chose obedience. That also encourages me to be obedient.Quote When He said be you perfect for I am perfect and Be ye Holy for i am Holy, well how could we by our “free will” perfome that,
It's like telling your children something like, “Be good because I am good.” But we are not expecting that they will be as good as we know how to be, for instance. After all, they are only kids. It's more like a goal we want them to strive for. I believe God is also saying this – hey kids be holy as I am holy! Of course we know that no one is good except God, right? So then it's a goal that we strive for. We press on towards the prize. Some translations use the word, “perfect”. It reads, “Be perfect as I am perfect.” Well, we know we cannot be perfect and God probably wouldn't make us perfect because then he wouldn't be any better than us.Quote Man does not have the ability to choose right He must be guided or caused to make the right choices, and that what God does in who ever He indwells.
This doesn't sound right to me at all. It almost sounds like God set his creation up to fail from the jump. If Adam didn't have what it took to choose right, then God really screwed things up by putting that tree in the garden.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 30 2008,16:52) to all…..the key is the definition of (FREE) Will. The definition i heard was to choose something without (any influence) of any kind whether past experiences or teachings of any kind, it is to pick or choose without causality being presnt. To me that is impossible, so Free Will can't exist IMO. I believe thats why you doin't see the word (FREE WILL) in the scriptures no where, because God has put purpose in all things, so cause has to be present in all things. And another interesting thought is if God is Creating us into his Image then he must be influencing us and that is causing us to clone or copy Him. When He said be you perfect for I am perfect and Be ye Holy for i am Holy, well how could we by our “free will” perfome that, when it say's the carnel mind is emimity to God ( that means the natural minds we are born with is a eneny of God,),” and is not subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be.” So whats this saying isn't it that a natural minds would never choose (by it's own so called free will) to serve God, we have to have something put in Us to cause us to choose God's ways. And that would be cause and the effect would be we would Walk in God's ways. For we are (created) unto good works and God works in us (Both) to will and do His good pleasure. The will of man must be put to death and replaced by God's Will. In the kingdom of God only One will, will be done, Jesus said thy kingdom come thy WILL be done. Man does not have the ability to choose right He must be guided or caused to make the right choices, and that what God does in who ever He indwells. peace to you all……………………….gene
Free Will: proceeding from the will or from one's own choice or consent, unconstrained by interference, self-determining
done by design or intention of, relating to, subject to, or regulated by the will. Note: this does not imply free from influence or experience (that is absurd no one exists in a vacuum), it implies freedom from compulsion.Yes God has a purpose for us all, but he does not compel us to meet them, if he did would the world be as it is? Influence is not compulsion, yes I believe God given conscience influences us in a direction yet so does temptation. The idea that the carnal mind is an enemy of God is likewise fallacious, the, what you call carnal mind, was and is necessary for our survival, it was designed and created by God for our protection as a species, what it needs is training and discipline where the body and animal sides of our nature are trained to serve the spirit rather then the reverse as often seems to be the case in those of a more primitive bearing.
Yes God's will is law, but it seems to me his will is that we develop wills of our own and train them to come onto harmony with the divine, in our own time and manner of choosing rather then bending such to his command, if that were indeed the means it would have already been done.
Quote (Cato @ April 30 2008,23:53) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 30 2008,16:52) to all…..the key is the definition of (FREE) Will. The definition i heard was to choose something without (any influence) of any kind whether past experiences or teachings of any kind, it is to pick or choose without causality being presnt. To me that is impossible, so Free Will can't exist IMO. I believe thats why you doin't see the word (FREE WILL) in the scriptures no where, because God has put purpose in all things, so cause has to be present in all things. And another interesting thought is if God is Creating us into his Image then he must be influencing us and that is causing us to clone or copy Him. When He said be you perfect for I am perfect and Be ye Holy for i am Holy, well how could we by our “free will” perfome that, when it say's the carnel mind is emimity to God ( that means the natural minds we are born with is a eneny of God,),” and is not subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be.” So whats this saying isn't it that a natural minds would never choose (by it's own so called free will) to serve God, we have to have something put in Us to cause us to choose God's ways. And that would be cause and the effect would be we would Walk in God's ways. For we are (created) unto good works and God works in us (Both) to will and do His good pleasure. The will of man must be put to death and replaced by God's Will. In the kingdom of God only One will, will be done, Jesus said thy kingdom come thy WILL be done. Man does not have the ability to choose right He must be guided or caused to make the right choices, and that what God does in who ever He indwells. peace to you all……………………….gene
Free Will: proceeding from the will or from one's own choice or consent, unconstrained by interference, self-determining
done by design or intention of, relating to, subject to, or regulated by the will. Note: this does not imply free from influence or experience (that is absurd no one exists in a vacuum), it implies freedom from compulsion.Yes God has a purpose for us all, but he does not compel us to meet them, if he did would the world be as it is? Influence is not compulsion, yes I believe God given conscience influences us in a direction yet so does temptation. The idea that the carnal mind is an enemy of God is likewise fallacious, the, what you call carnal mind, was and is necessary for our survival, it was designed and created by God for our protection as a species, what it needs is training and discipline where the body and animal sides of our nature are trained to serve the spirit rather then the reverse as often seems to be the case in those of a more primitive bearing.
Yes God's will is law, but it seems to me his will is that we develop wills of our own and train them to come onto harmony with the divine, in our own time and manner of choosing rather then bending such to his command, if that were indeed the means it would have already been done.
Good points —Quote (Cato @ April 30 2008,04:53) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 30 2008,16:52) to all…..the key is the definition of (FREE) Will. The definition i heard was to choose something without (any influence) of any kind whether past experiences or teachings of any kind, it is to pick or choose without causality being presnt. To me that is impossible, so Free Will can't exist IMO. I believe thats why you doin't see the word (FREE WILL) in the scriptures no where, because God has put purpose in all things, so cause has to be present in all things. And another interesting thought is if God is Creating us into his Image then he must be influencing us and that is causing us to clone or copy Him. When He said be you perfect for I am perfect and Be ye Holy for i am Holy, well how could we by our “free will” perfome that, when it say's the carnel mind is emimity to God ( that means the natural minds we are born with is a eneny of God,),” and is not subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be.” So whats this saying isn't it that a natural minds would never choose (by it's own so called free will) to serve God, we have to have something put in Us to cause us to choose God's ways. And that would be cause and the effect would be we would Walk in God's ways. For we are (created) unto good works and God works in us (Both) to will and do His good pleasure. The will of man must be put to death and replaced by God's Will. In the kingdom of God only One will, will be done, Jesus said thy kingdom come thy WILL be done. Man does not have the ability to choose right He must be guided or caused to make the right choices, and that what God does in who ever He indwells. peace to you all……………………….gene
Free Will: proceeding from the will or from one's own choice or consent, unconstrained by interference, self-determining
done by design or intention of, relating to, subject to, or regulated by the will. Note: this does not imply free from influence or experience (that is absurd no one exists in a vacuum), it implies freedom from compulsion.Yes God has a purpose for us all, but he does not compel us to meet them, if he did would the world be as it is? Influence is not compulsion, yes I believe God given conscience influences us in a direction yet so does temptation. The idea that the carnal mind is an enemy of God is likewise fallacious, the, what you call carnal mind, was and is necessary for our survival, it was designed and created by God for our protection as a species, what it needs is training and discipline where the body and animal sides of our nature are trained to serve the spirit rather then the reverse as often seems to be the case in those of a more primitive bearing.
Yes God's will is law, but it seems to me his will is that we develop wills of our own and train them to come onto harmony with the divine, in our own time and manner of choosing rather then bending such to his command, if that were indeed the means it would have already been done.
Yes, good points.I think it all comes down to how we define free will and we are not defining it as Gene is. I can see where Gene is coming from, but I don't feel that it is Yah's control over us, it is His influence that will eventually have complete success over all of humanity. Like I said before we are predictable and highly influential creatures. I don't see it as control, it is successful influence.
One problem with your post though, the bible does indeed say that our carnal mind is at enmity with Yah.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Yah put this enmity in place when he made our conscience aware of death. This is the symbolism given to us in the serpents punishment way back in Genesis.
Genesis 3:14 So the Lord God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life.
Romans 16:18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.
Philippians 3:18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.
Psalms 44:25 For bowed to the dust hath our soul, Cleaved to the earth hath our belly.
Here we see that the belly is represented as being our soul and that it cleaves to the dust or to the earth.
Psalms 119:25 Cleaved to the dust hath my soul, Quicken me according to Thy word.
Micah 7:17 They lick dust as a serpent, as fearful things of earth, They tremble from their enclosures, Of Jehovah our God they are afraid, Yea, they are afraid of Thee.
Eph 2:3 All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else.
Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”
The carnal mind is at enmity with Yah, because it is weak to serve the flesh. Thank goodness however, even though we were cursed above the animals by being given in our brain the knowledge of death, our brain also has the capacity through time and experience to take in and understand Yah's plan for us, and that He can lift the burden we carry. Yah can override our fears of death, he can take the serpent mind out of us, which was necessary for us to survive but against us making us selfish and barbaric.
This is something I wrote awhile ago after researching the human brain.
The latest discoveries within the make-up of the human brain can shed more light on our free will, and why it seems we naturally cling to our self will over that of Yah's. Scientists who study animal and human brains, have discovered there are three types of brains. There is a reptilian brain which controls body functions that are required for sustaining life. This brain does not reflect free will in any sort of way. Animals with this brain live solely on their instincts, where responses are automatic and behavior is set and controlled by instincts alone and where the saying might is right exists. The other type of brain is called the mammalian brain and within this brain lies the reptilian brain with a few major features added, such as memory. This brain is less rigidly controlled by instincts and holds within itself feelings such as attachment, anger and fear, and where care, fight or flight comes from.
The makeup of the human brain consists of the mammalian brain, with many more complexities added. As a matter of fact 85 % of the mass of the human brain contains this added makeup, which is called the neocortex and makes up the outer layers of the brain. The prefrontal lobe, part of the neocortex, is the part of the brain that controls planning, ideas, decision making and stores information like past rewards, likes and dislikes. Social interaction is a huge part of the prefrontal lobe giving us social emotions such as empathy, guilt, and trust, as well as behavioral control, keeping us from doing inappropriate things. It
is just behind the forehead, where the prefrontal lobe exists, which over time, through proper experiences and true knowledge, do we find the ability to control our reptilian brain and follow the will of Yah.The great evil in the world is NOT some TALL TAIL story about supernatural beings hating us and breeding with us, the truth is quite simple. The knowledge of death has inner feared with the proper development of our neocortexes. An infant that is improperly cared for, not given proper nutrition, not loved, abused, basically has had negative information given to their neocortex ends up being even more evil then their parents. This person then goes on to have children and here we see a pattern and why the world is the way it is.
Knowing the makeup of our brain and how it works and comparing it to scripture, I believe it is clear who our enemy is. Our will struggles because our neocortex is aware of death and it fears it, thus it is drawn to follow it's reptilian brain, instead of following Yah. Our will is chained to our fleshly desires, however when Yah works His influence on our neocortex we can deny those fleshly desires and reflect more of His character.
Jodi,
I'm a bit confused (no surprise), um, we do not have “reptilian” brains. Can you explain where you got your information from? Thanks.
Jodi……You are right and every thing you showed is what causes the things in our live, so cause and effect is the thing. what ever we do is tied to a cause of some kind. So Free has nothing to do with it as you have shown. Both physiologist, and scientist, have never disproved the cause and effect operation in all things, and that includes man kind.
Whats interesting to me is why are people so adamant about their so called (FREE WILLS), what's the driving reason man kind thinks this way, I believe it's the I GOD within, people want to act as if they are in control of their destinys. Remember it says's, the man of sin sit's in the temple of God showing Himself as a GOD, and also it says WE are the temple of God. Interesting i think this thing on (free will's ) is far more important then we may have thought.
Jodi…love and peace to you and yours…………………gene
Quote (Cato @ April 30 2008,23:53) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 30 2008,16:52) to all…..the key is the definition of (FREE) Will. The definition i heard was to choose something without (any influence) of any kind whether past experiences or teachings of any kind, it is to pick or choose without causality being presnt. To me that is impossible, so Free Will can't exist IMO. I believe thats why you doin't see the word (FREE WILL) in the scriptures no where, because God has put purpose in all things, so cause has to be present in all things. And another interesting thought is if God is Creating us into his Image then he must be influencing us and that is causing us to clone or copy Him. When He said be you perfect for I am perfect and Be ye Holy for i am Holy, well how could we by our “free will” perfome that, when it say's the carnel mind is emimity to God ( that means the natural minds we are born with is a eneny of God,),” and is not subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be.” So whats this saying isn't it that a natural minds would never choose (by it's own so called free will) to serve God, we have to have something put in Us to cause us to choose God's ways. And that would be cause and the effect would be we would Walk in God's ways. For we are (created) unto good works and God works in us (Both) to will and do His good pleasure. The will of man must be put to death and replaced by God's Will. In the kingdom of God only One will, will be done, Jesus said thy kingdom come thy WILL be done. Man does not have the ability to choose right He must be guided or caused to make the right choices, and that what God does in who ever He indwells. peace to you all……………………….gene
Free Will: proceeding from the will or from one's own choice or consent, unconstrained by interference, self-determining
done by design or intention of, relating to, subject to, or regulated by the will. Note: this does not imply free from influence or experience (that is absurd no one exists in a vacuum), it implies freedom from compulsion.Yes God has a purpose for us all, but he does not compel us to meet them, if he did would the world be as it is? Influence is not compulsion, yes I believe God given conscience influences us in a direction yet so does temptation. The idea that the carnal mind is an enemy of God is likewise fallacious, the, what you call carnal mind, was and is necessary for our survival, it was designed and created by God for our protection as a species, what it needs is training and discipline where the body and animal sides of our nature are trained to serve the spirit rather then the reverse as often seems to be the case in those of a more primitive bearing.
Yes God's will is law, but it seems to me his will is that we develop wills of our own and train them to come onto harmony with the divine, in our own time and manner of choosing rather then bending such to his command, if that were indeed the means it would have already been done.
OK, I'll admit it, I'm an official Cato “groupie”.
If you ever put a book out, I would plunk down $28.99 in a hearbeat! Excellent points here, bro.
As Jodi pointed out, the carnal mindset is against God and cannot be for him, but as you pointed out, the carnal mind was perhaps placed within by design. I agree with this. So either scripture has it wrong (which has been a theme lately), or God designed us with something that cannot be reconciled to him naturally. I would wonder why he did this?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 01 2008,04:57) Whats interesting to me is why are people so adamant about their so called (FREE WILLS), what's the driving reason man kind thinks this way, I believe it's the I GOD within, people want to act as if they are in control of their destinys.
Good morning bro, Gene!It's interesting you would use the phrase, “I God” to describe our possible reason for control. Have you ever seen the movie, “I-Robot”?
If we are not in control of our destiny (to some degree), then why even try? Why educate ourselves to make good and different choices? Why pray at all if God is already going to will us in a certain direction. Instead of petitions and prayers, we can just say, “Your will be done.” But of course all kinds of prayers are offered for what we want. I think the reason that is – is because we think we can plead our case before God. Perhaps God will change his mind on something for our lives. Perhaps we can persuade him in some way to see it our way?
It worked for Abraham.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 30 2008,09:54) Jodi, I'm a bit confused (no surprise), um, we do not have “reptilian” brains. Can you explain where you got your information from? Thanks.
Hi Mandy,This is a subject I really like. Something told me awhile back that the serpent did not indeed represent a fallen angel. I started to investigate what might the serpent represent. Knowing that Genesis was written after the Israelites fled Egypt and recalling Egyptians use of the serpent for symbolic reasons I started my investigation there with the Egyptians and their snakes thinking that the author of Genesis might use a symbol from Egypt that the Israelites would have been familiar with. I discovered that the Egyptians made a connection between the serpent and the human mind, so I did a word search of the two and found that not only do scientists refer to part of our brain as a reptilian brain, but it is also shaped inside our brain like a serpent. I was very ecstatic when I read all this to say the least.
Here are some links you might find interesting
Chapter 9 in
http://www.vernonjohns.org/nonracists/dvhbrain.htmlhttp://www.primatesociety.com/Into/survival/timeline/textEvol.html
http://www.atam.org/SerpentBrain.html
Let me say that I am not a believer that man evolved from primitive life forms, but that our Creator used the same building blocks to create us as he did other animals.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 30 2008,10:02) Quote (Cato @ April 30 2008,23:53) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 30 2008,16:52) to all…..the key is the definition of (FREE) Will. The definition i heard was to choose something without (any influence) of any kind whether past experiences or teachings of any kind, it is to pick or choose without causality being presnt. To me that is impossible, so Free Will can't exist IMO. I believe thats why you doin't see the word (FREE WILL) in the scriptures no where, because God has put purpose in all things, so cause has to be present in all things. And another interesting thought is if God is Creating us into his Image then he must be influencing us and that is causing us to clone or copy Him. When He said be you perfect for I am perfect and Be ye Holy for i am Holy, well how could we by our “free will” perfome that, when it say's the carnel mind is emimity to God ( that means the natural minds we are born with is a eneny of God,),” and is not subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be.” So whats this saying isn't it that a natural minds would never choose (by it's own so called free will) to serve God, we have to have something put in Us to cause us to choose God's ways. And that would be cause and the effect would be we would Walk in God's ways. For we are (created) unto good works and God works in us (Both) to will and do His good pleasure. The will of man must be put to death and replaced by God's Will. In the kingdom of God only One will, will be done, Jesus said thy kingdom come thy WILL be done. Man does not have the ability to choose right He must be guided or caused to make the right choices, and that what God does in who ever He indwells. peace to you all……………………….gene
Free Will: proceeding from the will or from one's own choice or consent, unconstrained by interference, self-determining
done by design or intention of, relating to, subject to, or regulated by the will. Note: this does not imply free from influence or experience (that is absurd no one exists in a vacuum), it implies freedom from compulsion.Yes God has a purpose for us all, but he does not compel us to meet them, if he did would the world be as it is? Influence is not compulsion, yes I believe God given conscience influences us in a direction yet so does temptation. The idea that the carnal mind is an enemy of God is likewise fallacious, the, what you call carnal mind, was and is necessary for our survival, it was designed and created by God for our protection as a species, what it needs is training and discipline where the body and animal sides of our nature are trained to serve the spirit rather then the reverse as often seems to be the case in those of a more primitive bearing.
Yes God's will is law, but it seems to me his will is that we develop wills of our own and train them to come onto harmony with the divine, in our own time and manner of choosing rather then bending such to his command, if that were indeed the means it would have already been done.
OK, I'll admit it, I'm an official Cato “groupie”. If you ever put a book out, I would plunk down $28.99 in a hearbeat! Excellent points here, bro.
As Jodi pointed out, the carnal mindset is against God and cannot be for him, but as you pointed out, the carnal mind was perhaps placed within by design. I agree with this. So either scripture has it wrong (which has been a theme lately), or God designed us with something that cannot be reconciled to him naturally. I would wonder why he did this?
The carnal mind is at enmity with Yah, when it is left on it's own. However, when Yah gives His influence to the carnal mind it can grow away from enmity and into unity.
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