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True but our Bible especially the NT talks about the predestination and the influenced will which is not FREE as it is meant to be;
The theological doctrine of divine foreknowledge is often alleged to be in conflict with free will, particularly in Calvinistic circles: if God knows exactly what will happen (right down to every choice a person makes), it would seem that the “freedom” of these choices is called into question.
In the Bible
The biblical ground for free will lies in the fall into sin by Adam and Eve that occurred in their “willfully chosen” disobedience to God.“Freedom” and “free will” can be treated as one because the two terms are commonly used as synonyms. However, there are widespread disagreements in definitions of the two terms. Because of these disagreements, Mortimer Adler found that a delineation of three kinds of freedom is necessary for clarity on the subject, as follows:
(1) Circumstantial freedom is “freedom from coercion or restraint” that prevents acting as one wills.
In the Bible, circumstantial freedom was given to the Israelites in The Exodus from slavery in Egypt.
(2) Natural freedom (a.k.a. volitional freedom) is freedom to determine one’s own “decisions or plans.” Natural freedom is inherent in all people, in all circumstances, and “without regard to any state of mind or character which they may or may not acquire in the course of their lives.”
The Bible, paralleling Adler, views all humanity as naturally possessing the “free choice of the will.” If “free will” is taken to mean unconstrained and voluntary choice, the Bible assumes that all people, unregenerate and regenerate, possess it. For examples, “free will” is taught in Matthew 23:37 and Revelation 22:17.
(3) Acquired freedom is freedom “to live as [one] ought to live,” a freedom that requires a transformation whereby a person acquires a righteous, holy, healthy, etc. “state of mind or character.”
The Bible testifies to the need for acquired freedom because no one “is free for obedience and faith till he is freed from sin’s dominion.” People possess natural freedom but their “voluntary choices” serve sin until they acquire freedom from “sin’s dominion.” The New Bible Dictionary denotes this acquired freedom for “obedience and faith” as “free will” in a theological sense. Therefore, in biblical thinking, an acquired freedom from being “enslaved to sin” is needed “to live up to Jesus’ commandments to love God and love neighbor.”
Jesus told his hearers that they needed to be made “free indeed” (John 8:36). “Free indeed [ontós]” means “truly free” or “really free,” as it is in some translations. Being made “free indeed” means freedom from “bondage to sin.” This acquired freedom is “freedom to serve the Lord.” Being “free indeed” (i.e., true freedom) comes by “God’s changing our nature” to free us from being “slaves to sin.” and endowing us with “the freedom to choose to be righteous.”
The paradox of free will (Judaism)
In rabbinic literature, there is much discussion as to the apparent contradiction between God’s omniscience and free will. The representative view is that “Everything is foreseen; yet free will is given” (Pirkei Avot 3:15). Based on this understanding, the problem is formally described as a paradox, beyond our understanding.The Holy One, Blessed Be He, knows everything that will happen before it has happened. So does He know whether a particular person will be righteous or wicked, or not? If He does know, then it will be impossible for that person not to be righteous. If He knows that he will be righteous but that it is possible for him to be wicked, then He does not know everything that He has created. …[T]he Holy One, Blessed Be He, does not have any temperaments and is outside such realms, unlike people, whose selves and temperaments are two separate things. God and His temperaments are one, and God’s existence is beyond the comprehension of Man… [Thus] we do not have the capabilities to comprehend how the Holy One, Blessed Be He, knows all creations and events. [Nevertheless] know without doubt that people do what they want without the Holy One, Blessed Be He, forcing or decreeing upon them to do so… It has been said because of this that a man is judged according to all his actions.
The paradox is explained, but not resolved, by observing that God exists outside of time, and therefore, his knowledge of the future is exactly the same as his knowledge of the past and present. Just as his knowledge of the past does not interfere with man’s free will, neither does his knowledge of the future. This distinction, between foreknowledge and predestination, is in fact discussed by Abraham ibn Daud.One analogy here is that of time travel. The time traveller, having returned from the future, knows in advance what x will do, but while he knows what x will do, that knowledge does not cause x to do so: x had free will, even while the time traveller had foreknowledge. One objection raised against this analogy – and ibn Daud’s distinction – is that if x truly has free will, he may choose to act otherwise when the event in question comes to pass, and therefore the time traveller (or God) merely has knowledge of a possible event: even having seen the event, there is no way to know with certainty what x will do; see the view of Gersonides below. Further, the presence of the time traveller, may have had some chaotic effect on x’s circumstances and choice, absent when the event comes to pass in the present.)
Yep, I still agree with Gene, there is no such thing as having a “free will”.
Gene said, “Your WILL is what your mind “produces”, therefore it is held “captive” by what’s going on “in” your mind.”
Exactly!!
… and what’s going on in your mind is the result of your past experiences, your current state of knowledge/wisdom/understanding, even your genetic makeup that impacts your temperament.
It’s absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to have a free will, unless you have absolute control over your entire life, you chose your genes, you chose every word that was ever spoken to you since you were born, you chose everything that you saw, etc…
Being handed a choice gives you an opportunity to USE your will, your are given the freedom to USE your will, but your will itself is not free, it is a product of a countless number of factors to which you had no control over.
It’s absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to have a free will, unless you have absolute control over your entire life, you chose your genes, you chose every word that was ever spoken to you since you were born, you chose everything that you saw, etc…
Thank you Jodi for sharing your views on this special thread on “Myth of Free Will”. Yes I agree with your above statement on Free Will. We are having Will to make choices but it’s not fully FREE from influences and bias.
Adam……Thats right, the term “freewill ” is an “OXYMORON “, there exists no such thing as a “freewill”. No Will is “free” from what’s influencing it. Therefore it is written, ” God WORKS in us “BOTH” to “WILL” and do of “HIS” good pleasure.
peace and love to you and yours Adam………gene
Hey Gene.
Do you choose to believe that there is free will or no free will?
What do you freely choose to believe on this topic?
Checkmate!
Yep, I still agree with Gene, there is no such thing as having a “free will”.
If you do not have free will, then how can we trust your statement.
You were going to say that statement regardless of being right or wrong according to your view.
So that means we cannot trust that your statement is correct because you have no freedom to choose the truth according to your own doctrine.
Checkmate!
The sort of brain that feels it must kill people must be locked away. Because we don’t want that brain killing people. However, what this does change is how we feel about that person. We should feel about them the same as we feel about the person who got a brain tumour and became a killer. He is a victim of his brain. A victim of biology. We all have metaphorical brain tumours.
how do we feel about the grizzly bear that kills someone? Perhaps that bear must be put to death or at least stopped. But it doesn’t mean we hate the bear or feel malice towards the bear. The bear is also a victim of biology. It’s also not making choices in the way we think about choices.It is in the grizzly’s nature. But he is not judged by God because he has not been endowed with the reason that man has. Yes, our nature is fallen, so we are victims of our own nature. But God gave us free will so that we could love him, reason, and choose good. Without free will to choose love and love for God, then love is not real. Instead, there is this thing that looks like love, but is really just a robotic command. Do you really believe that love is not real or not the greatest?
I have a friend with a tumor on her brain. She has never killed anyone. I have a friend who is an alcoholic and another friend who drank a lot when his wife left him. He got over it and is a sober man today. He had the tendencies, but that didn’t condemn him to be an alcoholic. I know another person who could be a drug addict and was a hopeless drug addict. But he chose God and is drug free and has been for decades.
You go on as if people are condemned to become murders etc. What a load of hogwash. People become murderers because they chose freely to do evil for a long time. One evil act after another. This like anything you nurture will grow. And that person who killed another because of one moment of anger. That person still had a choice. A choice to let the anger lead to sin or to something constructive. Because anger is not evil. It calls you to action. To rectify the situation. Unfortunately, some choose to sin. But that is still your choice.
If there was no ability to freely choose good from evil, then God could not judge you. Just like God will not judge that grizzly bear. But if you freely choose to love and serve God over evil, then you will escape judgement.
David. Choose good. Reject evil. Choose love. Reject hate. Choose faith. Reject fear. This determines what manner of man you choose to be.
In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2 Cor 13:1 (KJV)13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites,
in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
Ezra 7:12-13 (KJV)26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins
Heb 10:26 (KJV)Conclusion:
EVERYONE has “FreeWill” except of course GeneGod bless………….. Ed J
@t8
Proclaimer
Participant
Hey Gene.Do you choose to believe that there is free will or no free will?
What do you freely choose to believe on this topic?
Checkmate!
CHECKMATE!
EDj……No , such thing exists as a Will that is free, All Will are driven, just as your above statement shows. You were driven to say what you said, nothing free about it. The only thing free about it was your freedom to say it here, but those statements came from a driven Will, held captive by the thoughts of your mind. “Free Will”, is an OXYMORON, BECAUSE, NON EXISTS.
NO ONE IS FREE , WE ARE “ALL”, HELD CAPTIVE BY OUR THOUGHTS. The better question is what’s driving your thoughts, is it a “freewill” or just you opinions driven by your heart or mind?
The proper understanding of the scripture you quoted is, He who voluntarily “wants to”, but that “want to” comes from a “influenced” mind. Nothing free about that either. Good to hear from you Edj.
peace and love to you and yours Edj……….gene
13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites,
in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
Ezra 7:12-13 (KJV)The bible says “Free Will” does exist
Free will is like giving away sovereignty. When this happens, you have self-rule and the giver takes a risk because the choices that the new entity makes may not necessarily line up with the will of the one who gave the free will or self-rule in the first place.
But as the saying goes, “if you love something, set it free”.
God gave us the ability to chose for ourselves because he loves us. Love without choice is not love. Love needs choice.
This is why God gave the first man and woman the Tree of Life and the Tree of Good & Evil.
This was about giving us choice and as long as we chose to eat from the Tree of Life, we were choosing God.
God is love, and since He is love, He gave the first couple the free will or power to choose, to be dependent or independent with respect to God… But it cost God an infinite price: the gift of His ONLY SON and the gift of His Son was “at the risk of eternal perdition” (for the Son) For the Son, it was not won in advance because it was necessary to defeat Satan being in “the flesh “…
And the whole lot of suffering for the Father and the Son and humanity…It is he who in the days of his flesh, having presented with loud cries and with tears prayers and supplications to him who could save him from death, and having been heard because of his piety, 8 learned, though he was a Son, obedience through the things he suffered,…(Hebrews 5:7)
To all…….We must “ALL” put our wills to death, exactly like Jesus did or we simply will not be in the kingdom of God. We must all “overcome” our own wills, even as Jesus overcame his own, will.
The way Jesus did it is the “exact” way we must also, by puttingour wills to death to. Or haven’t you people ever read what Jesus said (not me), “the Son of man came not to do “his” will , but the will of him who sent him”, and again. “thy” kingdom come, “thy” WILL be done, on earth as it is in heaven, and again, those who have put on Christ have “died” with him, yes those who have put their own will’s to death “exactly” as Jesus did” his will, will live with him. We must carry our own cross, HOW?, by (putting ourselves to death), like Jesus did his own Will and died on the cross , we must also .
Let’s not kid ourselves into thinking we can just believe that Jesus came and died for our sins and there is nothing more we must do, as so many false churches teach. We must all be born again , with a new will given by the Spirit of God, that is driving us. JUST as it is written, “for it is “GOD” who works “IN” us, “BOTH”, to “WILL”, and do of , “HIS” , good pleasure.” One God, One will, “in all and through all”.
We must all learn to put our wills, to death, just as Jesus did his Will. We must become exactly like Jesus is, in order to be his brother, in the kingdom of God. Jesus said (not me) “to him that “overcomes” will i grant to sit with me in my kingdom, even as I Have “overcame”, and now sit, in my Fathers kingdom. There is no difference in what Jesus did , then what we must do also. He is the way, to eternal life, you must become another human being “exactlt like”, Jesus Christ yourself.
Put your “will” to death by the Spirit of God, and do the will of God, and you shall live. That is the overall message of God the Father and Jesus Christ our brother.
Peace and love to you all and yours……….gene
Even if our will is placed on the side of God in Christ, it does not mean that we do not/no longer have free choice, because “not me but Christ” is a spiritual process….through which God works in us to make us ONE IN CHRIST AS CHRIST IS ONE WITH THE FATHER.
WITHOUT FREE WILL MAN WOULD NOT EVEN NEED TO GIVE UP HIMSELF, BEING A ROBOT…God is love, and since He is love, He gave the first couple the free will or power to choose, to be dependent or independent with respect to God…
Yes, love requires free will. Otherwise we are robots.
There were two trees in the garden. They represented choice. At that time, God instructed man to eat from one tree. Man disobeyed when he chose to eat from the tree of good and evil.
Proclaimer…….Love does not require a, ” FREE WILL,”, God the Father didn’t tell Adam it’s ok, if you want, to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because of some kind of so-called free Will “love”, fact is He “commanded” them not to eat of it. They chose to “break”, his “comandment” to them. EVE chose to out of being decieved by the serpent, as i recall. When a person is “commanded” , to do something , that has nothing to do with a, so-called “freewill” choice. as you supose.
Consider this , right and wrong itself has “nothing” to do with your choice or my choice, whats right will alway be right , what is wrong will always be wrong, it not a matter of CHOICE, IT A MATTER OF WHATS RIGHT AND WHATS WRONG.
So if you want to say it’s all a matter of some kind of Choice of wills, then you also must say , it a matter of what causing that will, and believe me, it’s a will that is “far from being “FREE” it a Will, “captivated” by what is most “INFLUENCING IT”.
You saying it would makes us nothing more then a robot, you may be closer then you think, are they, (the robots,) not being “created”, to act a certan way, and what do you think we are being created to do? , Are we not being tranformed by the “renewing”of or mind? , (reprogramed) by God.
Does it not say…..old things are passed away, and behold all things are new? and again, God says (not me) ….”I will take out of them the stony heart (hard heart) and give them a (soft heart), and I (God) , Will put my law in their inward parts”, …..then they will be his people and he their God.
So who is really controlling “ALL” our destinies, is it your “captivated”, so-called, “free will”, or The Will And purposes of One Creater of “all” things?, God the Father ?
A SO-CALLED “FREEWILL”, IS AN OXYMORON, because there exist no such thing as a will that is “FREE”. All wills are driven by what holds them in captivity, you must be set free from your own Will , by putting it to death, like Jesus did his, and do the will of God, and that takes both , “love” for, and “faith” in, GOD the Father , just like Jesus had, When (he) said, “not, “MY””WILL” but “THY” Will be done.” IT’S all about will, but not our wills, but God the father Will. .
Peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer……….gene
If Adam and Eve had been created as robots that we control, they would not have disobeyed God. But they were created IN THE IMAGE OF GOD, which suggests that God has free will and therefore CONSTANTLY MAKES CHOICES.
PART OF THE PURPOSE OF GOD’S PLAN OF SALVATION IN CHRIST AND TO SET MANKIND FREE FROM SIN. BY CHOOSING TO LEARN TO LOVE JUSTICE AND HATE INEQUITY, WE EXERCISE OUR FREE WILL IN THE RIGHT WAY. BY RESISTING GOD’S CALLS TO BELIEVE IN HIS SON, WE EXERCISE OUR FREE WILL IN THE WRONG WAY.I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: ,(Deut.30:19)
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