- This topic has 3,825 replies, 73 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 4 months ago by
.
- Posts
Maybe it was the apostle Paul himself who changed the” truth of God” into a lie since he worshiped the creature called Christ and spread that to the whole world.
AndrewAD,
What definition do you chose for “evil” and “good” when you hear created evil and good?
The sentence sounds plausible with more than one definition but it does not mean that it is true for every one of those plausible definitions. I go with God creates both calamities and godsends. I do not go with “God creates moral wickedness and moral righteous as I do not believe either is created. They are instead actions.
It is true God could ban evil and so deprive humans and angels privilege of choice in the matter but he chooses not to. The fact he allows the privilege of choice is evidence of free choice.
AndrewAD….I NEVER SAID JESUS “HIMSELF” WAS A MAN OF SIN, WHAT I SAID WAS THE “FALSE IMAGE” OD HIM BEING A GOD WAS. THE TRUE JESUS IS NOT A MAN OF SIN, ONLY THE “IMAGE” OF HIM CREATED BY THE FALLEN CHURCH IS.
But the post you gave to kerwin 807169 is correct. I see it that way also. GOD is soverign in all thing that have been created. If it were a matter of a persons own will that was “free” and apart from God ,then why would God say, “i will take out of them the stony heart and give them a heart off flesh and i will write my law in their inward parts. If it is all a matter of a so-called freewill, and that’s the way God wants it to be , then why would he even need to change anything?
God the Father has to keep us or we could never maintain rightiousness for ever if left alone. The whole creation is an apsolute proof of that. It is clearly written in scripture ” for GOD WORKS “in” us “BOTH” TO WILL, and do of “HIS” good pleasure. How clear and yet some want to hang on to their own “freewills” to obtain salvation and a rightiousness from the “self” a rightiousness that comes from their own wills they assume are free. There is no such thing a will that is free or it simply would not even be a will at all if it is not being influenced by something. Common sense should tell us that. A will is a desire and no desire is without influence of somekind.
We have liberty to excercise our “influenced ” wills, but the will itselfis far from being free “itself”.
Peace and love to you and yours ………gene
AndrewAD,
Paul spoke but ignorant and corrupt humans misinterpreted his words just as Peter claims. This is done with the words of John and other passages of Scripture as well. It is for us to learn not to spread those untruths we have learned nor to invent others.
AndrewAD,
Jesus teaches us moral evil comes from our hearts and so it is our hearts that chooses. Because it comes from our hearts it is not a created thing but instead an action. If anything God came up with the concept of moral evil but as an author can come up with such a concept and yet be distanced from its reality. He also creates those who will choose to do evil but he does not choose for them.
Kerwin….WHAT ABOUT Pharaoh did he chose out of his own heart or did God cause him to harden his heart, scripture say that God hardened his heart. As far as what a man will being forth out of his heart goes, he will not bring forth what is not already in there will he? And what is in there has to come from somewhere or how could it be there.
Kerwin….CAUSE AND EFFECT, nothing “Free about it. There is no WILL, that is “FREE” the will is CAUSED and the EFFECT is what is done.
peace and love to you and yours ………gene
Gene,
The Pharaoh freely chose his actions based on the circumstances of the choice that he was presented with. The evil of his choice came from his own heart.
Just as God 7preappointed times and the boundaries of where each of us dwell he also predetermines the circumstances and choices that will come up in during our lives. God appointed the Pharaoh’s time and place because he foreknew that the Pharaoh’s heard would be hardened by the choices circumstances.. If those circumstances were different then perhaps the Pharaoh would have chosen to let them leave but that would not have served the cause of righteousness. God could have chosen man to be Pharaoh at that time; even one that never was.
Acts 17:26-27New King James Version (NKJV)
26 And He has made from one blood[a] every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
Kerwin…. scripture say cleary that it was God himself that hardened Pharaoh’s heart, “CAUSING” him not to let them go.
Proof text Exo 7:3 .. And I (God), will harden Pharaohs heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
More Proof texts Exo 14:4, Exo 14:17,
how is it you seem to reject those scriptures by saying Pharaoh freely chose to do that, but scripture clearly say God hardened his so he wouldn’t let them go.
you present the case that GOD HAS NOTHING to do with our choices or our hearts, but scripture say different more proof,
Eze 36:26….A NEW HEART also will I (GOD) give you, and a New SPIRIT will I (GOD) put within you: and I (GOD) will take away the stony heart OUT OF YOUR FLESH, and I (GOD) will give you an HEART OF FLESH.
kerwin why does GOD EVEN have to do that for us in the first place if what we already have is sufficent with our own so- called “free” wills, does it say we will perform this by our so-called freewill choices or does it say the LORD OUR GOD WILL?, well so much for us doing it out of our own wills choices.
peace and love to you and yours ……gene
Gene,
I explained how God hardened the Pharaoh’s heart instead of denying he did.
You already know free will is not random will and so it can be predicted how a person will react under any circumstances by the one being that knows and controls all circumstances. God controlled the circumstances so that the Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, which is to say he hardened the Pharaoh’s heart.
Jesus teaches us that evil behaviors come from the heart. The Pharaoh freely choose to do evil for the action came from his heart. In short he hardened his heart. God allowed him despite the circumstances of the choice and the inclination of the Pharaoh’s heart God could have still chosen to veto his actions.
The Pharaoh’s choice was predestined but it is also free.
Interpreting God’s action in hardening the Pharaoh’s heart as evidence of hard determinism is fast but short sighted action as it does not consider the context of other Scripture. God does not want us to me lazy minded but instead to live by the sweat of our brow.
Gene,
Eze 36:26….A NEW HEART also will I (GOD) give you, and a New SPIRIT will I (GOD) put within you: and I (GOD) will take away the stony heart OUT OF YOUR FLESH, and I (GOD) will give you an HEART OF FLESH.
He has to give us a new heart and a new Spirit because those not in the new covenant can only live according the the flesh and it is testifies that the greatest righteousness of those that live according to the flesh are but dirty rags in the sight of God.
As I pointed out before a human can not freely choose to breathe water because the circumstances ban that choice so too a man without the Spirit cannot choose to walk according to it. A human being can freely choose among those choices presented to them by the circumstances, which is to say by God.
God gives those that believe the Spirit, and that Spirit writes the law of God on the hearts of believers. In this way the people of God are given a new Spirit and their stony heart is exchanged for one of flesh.
kerwin… God gave those he “CAUSED” TO BELIEVE brother. Kerwin are we both saying the same thing, but perhaps explaining it a little different?
peace and love to you and yours ……..gene
Gene,
I hold that God has the power to determine the circumstances of humanity’s free choices but he uses that power for the good of those that love him. (Romans 8:28)
TO ALL…..I HAVE a request to you all, please go to, Bible-truths .com then go to and cleck on The Myth of “freewill Exposed , and come back tell me what you all think. Ray Smith has done an excellent job of covering this myth of a “freewill”. IMO
peace and love to you all and yours ……..gene
Gene,
In every case Scripture shows that it is God Who is behind the scene of all circumstances that influence and cause a man to make the one and only choice possible under any given circumstance.
This is has nothing do with free will and yet it is one of the premises Ray Smith uses.
Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Minimally, to say that an agent has free will is to say that the agent has the capacity to choose his or her course of action.
According to this definition there is nothing about being free of the circumstances of the choice.
In short determinism versus free choice is a false dilemma as both can and are true.
KERWIN….I HAS EVERY THING TO DO WITH IT, if Go is behind the choice then that choice is caused, AND IF IT IS”CAUSED” THEN IT IS OBVIOUSLY NOT A “FREE” choice now is it? remember we RE NOT talking about the liberty to excercise the will but what up the will, is influences so what the will itself decides is not free at all, but GOD does give usfreedom to excercise those captivated will. Ray Smith was right on as far as i am concerned.
Peace and love to you and yours …….gene
Gene,
It sounds like you are confusing random choice with free choice. Random choice is that when a human comes to an intersection in the road (s)he has a chance of choosing either one while free choice means (s)he will choice based on his/her own judgement.
Of course you cannot predict what that human will choose unless you know their mindset.
The evidence is that some human choose one route while others choose a second route. Both groups choose for their own reasons based on the circumstances of their choice.
Judas chose to betray Jesus because he had the opportunity and he was Judas. There are others that had the inclination but not the opportunity and eleven that had the opportunity but not inclination.
Do humans have judgement, inclinations, and mindsets?
Humans are not puppets but rather are both soulish and spiritual in nature. Animals are soulish and also have free will but puppets are physical and have none.
Gene,
The choice is made based on circumstance of the case not caused. The line when a human, animal, or angel is involved is cause-choice-effect unless you consider choice part of the cause. For example, opportunity to betray Jesus – choice to betray Jesus – effect of betraying Jesus. If the choice is removed the the cause falls apart.
If you want to look as it as the choice causing the chooser to make the choice they did then that is of the argument of abusers that their victim caused them to abuse. It does not work as people in general understand the abuser choice to abuse the victim. If a human goes before God and defends his/her inequity by claiming (s)he did it because (s)he had the opportunity do so it will not be a successful defense.
Choice is always involved and that choice is made from within the chooser; which is the definition of free choice.
kerwin … The circumstance “is” the cause. ALL THE APOSTLES SAID THEY WOULD DIE RATHER THEN DENY JESUS, Mark 14:31… “But he spake the more vehemently, if i should die with you, I will not deny you in any way, likewise also said they ALL”.
Now that was what they “willed” to do, but when the circumstance changed, so do their wills, they chose to deny him, what happened to their so-called freewill’s CHOICES. it became captivated by their circumstances and changed when they realized they would actually die right? So their WILL’S, wern’t so “FREE” after all right?
RAY SMITH, BROUGHT ALL THAT OUT IN HIS ARTICLE ON Freewill, you must not have actually read it or studied it.
peace and love to you and yours……..gene
EDJ…..HAVE YOU READ THE MATERIAL on the myth of the “freewill” written by Ray Smith? whats your take on that?
Peace and love to you and yours ……..gene
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
