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Kerwin…… no will does not mean choice, choice is the result of a formed will. Let me see if i can better explaine it, i first am in my mind caused by veryious things (ie spirits) working in me to desire something, this drives or forms my will, and Then i chose it and them i make the move or action.
While i am free to make the action, which most see as a “freewill”, that is not the true case of the will “itself”, because the will itself is “formed”, by what is causing it, it’s source. A will is the byproduct of the spirits working in us, and as a resul is alway under constant influince, this applies to our minds as well as our bodies.
That is why We have such a difficult time with things working in us , as the apostle Paul relates to us, you know , “with my mind i serve the laws of God ,but with my body the law of sin and death, o “wretched man that i am”, he says, this is true with us all, while the spirits in our mind wants (or wills) one thing , the carnal flesh because of sin is held in captivity and therefore wants (or wills) another, we also as a result live in a wrethed state. We also thank God, that through JESUS WE WILL BE DELIEVERED. WE ARE LOOKING FORWRD FOR THAT REDEMPTION TO COME AT THE RETURN OF JESUS, WHEN WE WILL BE DELIEVERED FROM THIS STATE OF CAPTIVIE “wretchedness” we are held in. Thats our hope brother.
peace and love to you and yours. …………….gene
Terricca…….why get all upset because you can’ have your own way, look all of us have a right here to believe and express our beliefs, even you also, but when you don’t get your way , you start criticizing and then labeling us, accusing us of being liars, devils, etc. All the time not understanding that is exactly what satan himself does, doesent scriptures say that “SATAN IS THE ACCUSOR OF THE BRETHERN”?
YOU ARE NOT APPROCHING US WITH A HUMBLE HEART, BUT AN AROGANT AND ACCUSATORY SPIRIT. YOU WERE THAT WAY FROM THE VERY START HERE, I REMEMBER TELLING YOU THAY MANY TIME HERE, AND OTHERS HAVE ALSO. SORRY TO SEE YOUR ATITUDE IS AS IT IS, BUT LIFE WILL GO ON WITH YOU OR WITHOUT YOU, AND THAT GOES FOR ME and OTHERS HERE ALSO .
peace and love to you and yours. ………………gene
Gene,
The argument is whether we are free to choose for ourselves or whether our choice is made by God or fate.
Kerwin,i have never said we couldn’t choose for ourselves, that is no the question i was dealing woth, it is what drives or created that choice. If you wanted to jump of the empire state building you could or drive your car to the store, or shoot someone, or be a sucide bomber. I understand that completely. But i was never talking about our freedom in life to do such things.
What i and talking about is what is causing that action to take place anthat is not the product of any kind of a free will,but aposesed will. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours. …………..gene
Gene,
My point is that you are misunderstand what free will means.
You instead are basically saying our choices have causes which I doubt anyone here is disagreeing with.
Kerwin……that is all i have ever said. And if the choice is Caused, then the will is also caused, the only thing that is not Caused by us, is the freedom to express our Caused wills. My point is and was the Term a freewill, is an Oxymoron,why?, because there exists no such thing as a will that “ITSELF” is “FREE”, REMEMBER I SAID OVER AND OVER I WAS NEVER TALKING About our liberty OR FREEDOM to express our captive wills.
God himself does not have a will that is free either, remember WHAT IS SAYS , “GOD DOES ALL THINGS AFTER THE “COUNCIL” OF HIS WILL”. Now what does that mean? It simply is telling us GOD EXCERCISE A COUNCILED WILL, NOTHIN FREE ABOUT HIS WILL EITHER. His will is CONCILLED BY HIS SEVEN SPIRITS. Our wills are also formed by the spirit council of our minds, by whats working in them, Apsolutely nothing “FREE” about them.
Now if a person says we have freedom to express our captivated wills that is true, i have no problem with that never did Kerwin, but to use a term as a will that is free impling that the will “itself” is free , as the term “freewill” implys i completely disagree with that. I know most are referencing our usage of our captivated will, then we should say it that way. Like for instance , the man was free to excersise his influenced will, you see that does not put any infericenses or bearing on the will “ITSELF”.
THAT IS AND WAS MY POINT , NOTHING MORE OR NOTHING LESS. Kerwin i truly believe you both understand what i am saying a most likely agree with it. IMO
peace and love to you and yours ……………….gene
Gene,
As have said, you misunderstand what the words free will me in this discussion.
That stops the discussion until we agree on what they mean.
He is in error to think the case of free will is closed.
He is in error to think that here are just two choices. There is at three being free will, hard determinism, and soft determinism.Perhaps he is just saying that there is either free will or not. That is two choices. And we choose which one. Ironic that we can choose which to believe. And for those who believe in no free-will. That is their choice. lol.
T8….choice has nothing to do with it, what is driving that choice does have everything to do with it though.
Anyon can take a side and find all kinds of people to quote in favor of their views. That video proved nothing reguarding the subject of “FREEWILL” IT only showed his biases i don’t recall him even using hardly any scriptures to prove his point. Just quoting what other past church leaders say is hardly a ligimate stance. I think You going around looking for people who agree with your view while using hardly no scripture support is not a very conviencing to anyone T8.
peace and love to you and yours……….gene
He quotes scriptures aplenty, where are your scriptures?
And yes most of the quotes are from disciples of the disciples and so on. But it is a long video, so you probably couldn’t quote solely from the Bible and make the video that length. Further, there is nothing wrong with voting other Believers, especially those who were disciples of John and Paul.
The video certainly doesn’t paint your view in good light, I can say that much and he reiterates the point that God cannot judge or reward a good or bad person if they had no control over their own character. Personally, I think you need to throw away most of the New Testament if you view is correct. Perhaps you hold this view because you cannot shake off a sin or something else that you feel you have no control over. Perhaps fear is what is driving you to this view?
peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Do I have a choice? Seriously if we cannot choose, then why do we discuss anything at all. We are all just playing out some preset story and are forced to be the characters.
T8…..Where did i ever say we do not have choices? You misrepresent what i have said. What i said was those chosices are the result of enfluences working in us. On the other hand You have not yet shown any scripture that says “a man has a will that is “Free”. I have never said we don’t “have” a WILL, NOW HAVE I, that is not even in question. Neither have i ever said we do not have “freedom” to express those influenced WILLS OF OURS EITHER, NOW HAVE I?
You say he quoted scriptures aplenty, i don’t recall a single scripture he quoted. What he did was try to make a case for his belief by quoting others, and not using scriptures for his views, but what others have said, and most of those who he was quotibg also believed JESUS WAS A GOD THEMSELVES, and were part of their present doctrinal teaching of their times, which included the trinitarian doctrines and ect.
Why not try to be more truthfull about what you i believe , i have given many many scriptures that back up what i believe about the doctrine of “free” wills. EDJ, PRESENTED A VIDEO THAT WAS JUST THE OPPSITE OF YOU VIDEO PRESENTATION. SO WHO ARE WE TO BELIEVE YOURS OR HIS, ANYONE CAN MAKE A CASE FOR ANYTHING THAT WAY T8.
T8 if you want to believe your will is completely free of any influences that your right to. I chose to believe our wills are definetly influenced by whats around us as well as SPIRITS, OF GOD OR OTHER KINDS OF SPIRITS.
Like scripture says “have you faith, have it unto yourself”, that is good enough for me.
peace and love to you and yours………gene
There are no choices if you do not have the will to choose. There are only perceived options with one outcome.
Choose you this day who you will serve because you are CAN choose.
T8….You got it backwards, there is no “will” unless your desires are caused by something. The influence is the cause, the will is the effect the act is the result. Satan words was the cause that worked in Eve making her “will” to eat of that which was forbidden,the effect was they ate of it. GOD GAVE THEM “liberty” to excercise their “influenced” wills. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours……..gene
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