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KeRwin……it dosent matter who captivated the man he is still held in captivite rather by his flesh or by the spirit of God, or his own spirit, make no difference he still is does not have a will that is free, while he is not free. Again as i have said all along here, you guys are confusing GOD ALLOWING US TO EXCERCISE OUR “CAPTIVATED” WILLS with, THE WILL ITSEL BEING FREE, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH. Will’s are not FREE OR they SIMPLY WOULD NOT EVEN BE A WILL AT ALL, wills must becaptivatedby something in order for them to even be a WILL.. THE WORD WILL BY DEFINITION REQUIRES A “DESIRE”, of some form, or it cant be a will. Those desires in a person DRIVE his will and brings him into THEIR captivity. Why do you think it says he came to set the captives free, if they already had a “freewill”, then why say they were held captive, at all, because according to you they had a free choice, if that were true then how can we even beheld captive by sin or lust or any thing far as that goes. We would all be free to do what ever we want, at any time in our existence, both now and in the future. GOD COULD NEVER BESURE, What we would do, both now or in the future, there could be no determination about any thing, because who would know when a person would turn the other way, so Kaos and uncertanity would always exixt. After all our WILL’S MUST ALWAYSBE FREE RIGHT?
Kerwin, no we must be delievered from one state of captivity to another state of captivity by the spirit of the living GOD, MAN GETS “NO” CREDIT, GOD GETS ALL THE CREDIT . IMO
Good and evil always existed, we ourselves did not create them, GOD DID, IT IS ALL ABOUT WHAT WE ARE DOING Both now and in the future, and that is “DETERMINED” by what is WORKING in us, the lust of the flesh, the spirit of the world, the spirit of GOD, WHAT EVER IT IS, HAS ALWAYS EXISTED, WE are not creating it in our lives some how THROUGH OUR OWN SO-CALLED FREEWILL CHOICES , we are the one being created unto good works by GOD THE FATHER,HIMSELF WHO “CAUSES” THOSE CHOICES. That is wny it says GOD “WORKS” IN US “BOTH” TO “WILL” AND DO of HIS GOOD PLEASURE. All WILL’S ARE FORMED by forces outside of ourselves, our enviorments, helped form our will even our own bodies and spirits CAUSE US TO WILL a certain way. NOTHING FREE ABOUT IT. , our will’s just didn’t all the sudden pop up OUT OF THIN AIR. IMO
PEACE AND LOVE TO YOU AND YOURS…………….GENE
Our reality is not hard to discern. Everyday we make choices based upon certain options that are available to us. Yes it is true that there are things out of our control such as sin and things that others impose on us, but God makes a way out so he provides the choice. And even when we make the wrong choices, he is willing to forgive us, so long as we make an effort to choose better in future which is repentance.
Deny that and you might as well throw away the bible because the bible is full of examples of this, teachings on this, and advice on this.
But Gene will choose to deny this is true and waste more of his time on this. That is my guess on this matter.
So far Gene denies that Adam and Eve were freely able to eat of any tree in the Garden of Eden. He denies any free choice. But he seems to be the only one here with this view because others have chosen to believe scripture instead of his view.
Ironically Gene is free to continue this delusion of his. Up to him and him alone. His choice.
T8……This discussions is one of tne oldest in the world, over the last 2000 years, so i hardly think it is unimportant, why do you admit somethings i am saying, then turn against the other things. You only go so far to the understanding and then turn away.
Lets talk about your view of Adam and Eve and what you believe was a “freewill” choice. Frist let consider this question, Did Adam and Eve create themselves…..no., So they were created outside of themselves, CAN WE AT LEAST AGREE ON THIS?, NOW was there a propensity for sin in them …yes, there did exist that propensity, can we agree on that?, next what does that propensity mean to you, you believe it is what gives then a freewill, i believe it was a definite careated purpose by GOD, for exactly what he wanted to happen to them. He wanted man to experiance both, good and evil. Why?, to become more like him, “LOOK MAN HAS BECOME AS WE ARE TO “KNOWING” good and evil” he said. When did the “KNOWING” take place, wad it before or after they took to themselves TO KNOW. They were completely unaware of good or evil untill this process took place.
It was needfull for man to personally experience, both good and evil for themselves, inorder to become more like GOD, THE LORD KNEW That from the very beginning, Adam and Eve’s choice was preprogramed in them from the beginning, by that created propensity, GOD PLACED IN HIM. NOW the problem was when would this propensity kick in, it could have taken a millions years for it to emerge, so GOD USED A CATALIST, CALLED THE SERPENT or Satan TO PLANT INTO THEIR MINDS, THE SEED THAT BROUGHT ABOUT THAT REACTION HE HAD ALREADY PLANNED. SATAN WAS USED BY THE LORD OUR GOD TO Speed up that reaction, in science they call this a catalyst, God used Satan for a CATALIST, TO SPEED UP THE REACTION HE KNOW WOULD HAPPEN OVER TIME ANYWAY. IT was NOT a CHANCE THAT IT MIGHT HAPPEN, HE KNEW IT WOULD HAPPEN anyway, he just sped it up, that’s all.
It all had nothing to do with a so-called freewill choice, it was all a pre-designed plan of GOD FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. ALSO look at the word KNOWLEDGE it doesn’t just mean a told about something like reading in a book, it means to personally experience something. While GOD TOLD MAN ABOUT THE consequences of that choice, he also knew they would make that choice at some point in their existence, because he built that propensity in man.
You seem to think GOD let man be a soverign being, which is not true, GOD WANTED MAN TO EXPERIENCE BOTH GOOD AND EVIL to become more like him. He created us this way, because for us to asend to a higher level of existence, we needed to go through what he designed us to from the very beginning.
Your belief of our own soverignity is false, GOD JUDGES US for the choices we make, for our good, he is teaching us about life and the consequences of how it is lived. Common sense should tell you, if it was GOD’S WILL FOR US NOT TO HAVE SINNED, he would never allowed the tree of good and evil, to even be in the garden in the first place he would have only allowed good to be there, and he would have never allowed satan to tempted his created childern in the first place, if he did not want what took place to happen.
GOD ALONE IS SOVERIGN IN ALL HIS CREATION, we are being CREATED BY HIM, UNTO GOOD WORKS, THROUGH WHAT WE ARE EXPERIENCING through HIS WILL, NOT OURS. We are not soverign over nothing, it is GODS WILL THAT will be done not mans will, which is far from being free. GOD THE FATHER IS INCOMPLETE CONTROL, OF ALL HIS CREATION, ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL Be. I personally am glad it is that way. You on the other hand it apears, rather have your own will to be done, your own self righteousness, believing you are a freewill agent of somekind,being made perfect by your own seperate from GOD choices through you own so-called “freewill” which would only glorfy you not GOD THE FATHER, I do not see it that way T8.
peace and love to you and yours. …………………gene
KERWIN…..By what working in our mindes, be it BY THE SPIRIT of the world, or the spirit of the living GOD. But either way it is all A CAUSE AND EFFECT responce. IMO, NOTHING FREE ABOUT IT.
peace and love to you and yours……………gene
Every person that is born on this earth, God already knows his path, his choices in life.
Every one is born a free person with own choices to make.
All are made in the image of God, with free will.
Non are remote controlled by God, we are not created robots.
A person born in india will follow his parents religion.
But that is an adopted believe system, from parents.
However; that person has his own believe system deep in his heart; to be good or to be evil in life.
This counts for Christians also. It is the religion deep in his heart, not what he had adopted in his life,
because of circumstance. There are evil Christians, and there are good heathens.Christians have been given the true bread from heaven, not all will eat of that bread in truth.
The true believers will be the saints, will be born again in spirit form, in the first resurrection.
The rest of the good people of all adopted religions, will also be accepted as saints, but after the second judgement.
They will be judged by their good works. Not by faith in Christ, they are the sheep on the right.
Because they have never been able to know Christ, because of circumstance.
People make their own choices in life, God is watching, and guiding, and letting, or not letting.
Anyone with the spirit of Christ in him, will simply follow that spirit. This is his own decision.
He can also fall away if he wants to, but he will be guided that he should not fall away. Not by force, but by love.
All are judged by own choices made in life.
No one can say; I had no choice but to do evil, therefore I am not guilty.wakeup.
Every person that is born on this earth, God already knows his path, his choices in life.
Every one is born a free person with own choices to make.
All are made in the image of God, with free will.
Non are remote controlled by God, we are not created robots.
A person born in india will follow his parents religion.
But that is an adopted believe system, from parents.
However; that person has his own believe system deep in his heart; to be good or to be evil in life.
This counts for Christians also. It is the religion deep in his heart, not what he had adopted in his life,
because of circumstance. There are evil Christians, and there are good heathens.Christians have been given the true bread from heaven, not all will eat of that bread in truth.
The true believers will be the saints, will be born again in spirit form, in the first resurrection.
The rest of the good people of all adopted religions, will also be accepted as saints, but after the second judgement.
They will be judged by their good works. Not by faith in Christ, they are the sheep on the right.
Because they have never been able to know Christ, because of circumstance.
People make their own choices in life, God is watching, and guiding, and letting, or not letting.
Anyone with the spirit of Christ in him, will simply follow that spirit. This is his own decision.
He can also fall away if he wants to, but he will be guided that he should not fall away. Not by force, but by love.
All are judged by own choices made in life.
No one can say; I had no choice, but to do evil, therefore I am not guilty.wakeup.
Gene,
KERWIN…..By what working in our mindes, be it BY THE SPIRIT of the world, or the spirit of the living GOD. But either way it is all A CAUSE AND EFFECT responce. IMO, NOTHING FREE ABOUT IT.
I am not speaking of a causal chain as a causal chain and free will are not in opposition.
I am asking if you believe God or fate controls are actions. In other words are we puppets and God or fate the puppet master?
Lets talk about your view of Adam and Eve and what you believe was a “freewill” choice. Frist let consider this question, Did Adam and Eve create themselves…..no., So they were created outside of themselves, CAN WE AT LEAST AGREE ON THIS?, NOW was there a propensity for sin in them …yes, there did exist that propensity, can we agree on that?, next what does that propensity mean to you, you believe it is what gives then a freewill, i believe it was a definite careated purpose by GOD, for exactly what he wanted to happen to them. He wanted man to experiance both, good and evil. Why?, to become more like him, “LOOK MAN HAS BECOME AS WE ARE TO “KNOWING” good and evil” he said. When did the “KNOWING” take place, wad it before or after they took to themselves TO KNOW. They were completely unaware of good or evil untill this process took place.
Gene, I see you chose to post again.
Adam and Eve did not create themselves. But that has nothing to do with free will. God creates us, and then we CHOOSE whether we will live or die.
Free will does not negate that there are things you cannot do. It simply says that we are free to choose among an allowable range.
And praise be to God that he has not abandoned us to die. He has given us everything that can make us live forever.
Your choice and you have God to thank for that.
If you do not believe that, then notice that you are FREE to not believe it.
Case closed Gene. What else is there to discuss. lol.
I am free to believe in free will and you are free to not believe in free will.
The craziest part to your teaching here is that you need to have free will to even choose to believe your view.
You have lost this debate 1000 times over Gene. Even now, we have both chosen differently.
And you act as if free will exist by even trying to convince us of your view.
Very funny Gene. Really. You are relying on the very thing you say does not exist.
That is like saying, “I do not believe in words”.
You are a laugh a minute.
T8,
I am not sure if Gene is communicating his ideas correctly. He seems to believe that the fact there is a cause for our choices means we do not have free will. He has not been clear when I ask him if he believes God or fate controls our actions instead of us. He seems instead to believe we are responsible for our own actions.
To all……> Sorry kerwin, but A CAUSAL chain, and a will that is free, are totally oppsites. One demands a CAUSE THAT CAUSES THE RESPONCE, THE OTHER IF “FREE” HAS TO BE FREE, FROM ALL CAUSES, ONE IS AN “INFLUENCED” WILL, THE OTHER IS A “NON” INFLUENCED WILL. SIMPLE AS THAT, You can’t have it both ways.
Again understand we are not talking about a just a will “only”, if we were the case, then what you say can make sense, but we are talking about a will that is “FREE”, THAT MEANS NOTHING CAN BE “INFLUENCING” IT IN “ANY” WAY OR IT WOULD NOT BE “TRULY” free, now would it?
I tell you, NO WILL IS ITSELF FREE, NOT EVEN GOD’S WILL IS FREE, EVERYTHING WE DO IS PREDETERMIND BY spirits working in us, we would make the same choice a million times if the same spirit that is in us remained the same. GOD HIMSELF DOES “ALL” THINGS AFTER THE “COUNCIL” OF HIS WILL, WHY, BECAUSE HIS WILL IS A “COUNCILED” WILL ,thats why. THERE ARE SEVEN SPIRITS (destinct intellects) OF GOD THAT COUNCIL HIM IN ALL HE DOES, NOTHING FREE ABOUT IT.
As i have said before there exists no such thing as, a will that itself is free, the term freewill reguarding the will itself, is an OXYMORON, if the will was itself free you could not even make up your mind about anything. You would be simply a free radical bouncing from one thing to another, this way then that way, no one ever knowing what you would do next, no one not even GOD. BUT THANKS BE TO GOD HE DID NOT CREATE US THAT WAY, HE installed into us the ability summon our knowledge and make rational decisions, by drawing what was already in us, and hereby forging our wills, absolutely nothing free about it, we are “CAUSED” BY WHAT IS WORKING IN US TO MAKE THE CHOICES WE MAKE, JUST THAT SIMPLE. If GOD WANTS US TO CHOSE HIS way of doing things he simply gives us his spirit and we will begin to think as he does, in this way GOD IS LIVING IN US DIRECTING AND GUIDING ALL OUR CHOICES, by inducing HIS THOUGHTS INTO US, we, (converted christians), have only one problem as PAUL SAID, HE FOUND IN HIS MEMBERS A WILL WORKING UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE LAW OF SIN, THAT DWELT IN HIS MEMBERS, you see it continued to effect his will, bringing him into the bondage of death. Then GOD ALLOWED HIM TO SEE, HIS PROBLEM WAS HIS OWN WILL WORKING IN HIS FLESH. HE saw it as truly a state of wrethedness, that he could do nothing about, so he was wanting to be set free from his body, which he called this body of death. Saying to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD. He figured that would be better then the present state he existed in.
HE THANKED GOD that through JESUS HE “WOULD” BE DELIVERED, SET FREE FROM HIS BODY OF DEATH, HE NEVER SAID he COULD be set free, by his own capticated will, now did he?, no it was accomplished by GOD THE FATHER THROUGH THE SACRIFICE OF JESUS THE CHRIST, even planned before he was born for him. Had nothing to do with our own so-called “freewill” choices. IMO
SIMPLY PUT” WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE AND THAT “NOT” OF OUR SELVES. IT HAS NOTNING TO DO WITH ANY SO-CALLED “FREEWILL” CHOICES comming from WITHIN ourselves. THAT WOULD ONLY GENDER TO BOASTING.
People who believe their own freewill choices brought or leads them to salvation, are delusional, they are only decieving themselves. We are saved despite ourselves, it is a gift from GOD, NOT of ONE’S SELF. JUST AS IT SAYS, “God has concluded “ALL” UNDER ( being controlled by) SIN, THAT “HE” MIGHT HAVE MERCY ON “ALL”
“O” THE RICHNESS OF HIS MERCY, AND THE LOVING KINDNESS, OF OUR HEAVENLY FATHER, TO HIM BE GLORY AND HONOR FOR EVER AND EVER, TO WORLD WITHOUT END. “O” HOW BLESSED WE ARE TO HAVE A LOVING FATHER LIKE OUR GOD, REJOICE, I SAY, REJOICE, AND BE GLAD, TO HIM WHO DOES NOT ACCOUNT OUR SINS “AGAINST” US, AS King David said, BLESSED is he IN WHOM the LORD will NOT IMPUTE INIQUITIE, WHOSE SINS HE HAS COVERED.
ABOVE ALL THINGS LETS BE THANKFULL BROTHERS AND SISTERS.
peace and love to you all and yours……………..gene
Gene,
I choose to eat strawberries of my own free will. The cause is that I find strawberries to be good tasting. The effect that I choose to eat them.
That is a simplified causal chain and free will is part of the element.
You are using another definition of free will than the one I quoted from Merriam-Webster online.
the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God
I control by the choices I make which is why Jesus called each of us to repent or perish. My fate does not control me. I do have motives for my choice or I would not have free will even of it is choosing because I have to. Those motive are causes.
Kerwin……IT’S NOT A MATTER OF WE HAVE TO, IT’S JUST THAT’S, WHAT AND WHO WE ARE. IF YOUR WILL IS “CAUSED” IT IS NOT “FREE”, NOTHING CAUSED IS FREE. IF I PUT THE BREAKS ON IN MY CAR, AND THE CAR STOPTED, DID THE CAR CAUSE ITSELF TO STOP OR I CAUSED IT TO STOP. YOU SAID YOU CHOOSE STRAWBERRIES BE-CAUSE, YOU LIKED THEM, THEN THAT WAS THE “CAUSE” THAT MADE YOU “WILL” TO EAT THEM, SIMPLE AS THAT, NOTHING FREE ABOUT IT, EXCEPT THE LIBERTY GIVEN YOU TO DO IT. You seem to be agreeing with me in one sense and disagreeing in another sense, you flip floping and that is why this subject is so hard for you AND OTHERS to understand, From ONE point of view you could be right, from another you are wrong.
YOUR STILL AT TIMES ARE THINKING I AM DISAGREEING ABOUT THE FREEDOM WE HAVE TO EXPRESS OUR “CAPTIVATED” WILL’S, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT, YOUR MOVING BACK AND FORTH ON THIS, LIKE T8 and others are doing, HAVE I NOT SAID ALL ALONG WE “ARE” GIVEN LIBERTY TO EXCERCISE OUR “CAPTIVATED” WILL’S?,
I believe you do agree with me on this Kerwin, it’s just a matter of keeping exactly what we are talking about straight.
peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Gene,
Kerwin……IT’S NOT A MATTER OF WE HAVE TO, IT’S JUST THAT’S, WHAT AND WHO WE ARE. IF YOUR WILL IS “CAUSED” IT IS NOT “FREE”,
Motivation is necessary for an excise of will to be free.
Why did I make the choice I did?
I have a reason for doing it, including I felt like it.
I have no reason for doing it.At least some of the time the first is correct and therefore there is a cause for my choice. The second one in basically a random choice. even though I am not sure I, or any human can actually make a true random choice.
You are essentially arguing because I have a motive for making a choice my will is not free. I on the other hand am saying motivation is necessary for free will to exist.
@T8,
I am not sure if Gene is communicating his ideas correctly. He seems to believe that the fact there is a cause for our choices means we do not have free will. He has not been clear when I ask him if he believes God or fate controls our actions instead of us. He seems instead to believe we are responsible for our own actions.
KERWIN,……FOR THE HUNDREDTH TIME ” THE “CAUSE” IS WHAT MAKES UP THE WILL” SO A WILL IS NOT FREE “OF ITSELF”, WHY BECAUSE IT IS “CAUSED” TO BE WHAT IT IS. WHY CAN’T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? THE WILL IS THE EFFECT OF WHAT “CAUSED” IT. GOD HAS GRANTED US FREEDOM TO EXCERCISE OUR “CAUSED” WILL. BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE OUR WILLS “THEMSELVES” FREE FROM WHAT IS “CAUSING” IT, TO EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE”. WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT?
PEACE AND LOVE TO YOU AND YOURS. ………….gene
Thanks for your post Kerwin. Whatever he says about the will of man, scripture says that man was FREE to eat from any tree in the garden. He clearly opposes this in order to preserve one of his pet doctrines.
Gene, when God said to man, “You can freely eat from any tree in the garden”, was he not telling us the truth. And by denying that we are not free to choose, then you are correcting God. You are basically saying, “excuse me God, we are not free to eat from any tree, our wills are captive., and we cannot choose freely”.
That is right, you are correcting God.
Simple question Gene:
When God said man could eat FREELY from any tree, then how exactly was he wrong?
T8…..first of all GOD DID NOT SAY MAN WAS FREE TO EAT OF “ANY” TREE, HE Commanded the not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, least they die. That is when man sinned by disobeying GOD’S COMMAND NOT TO EAT OF the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But you are right they did eat of it any way and all have,and all have died also.
My point is not that they could not freely chose to eat from it OR NOT, it is what made them WILL TO EAT OF IT, was it just some desire freely floating around in their head, that sudenly became their will, or was it THERE A “CAUSE” THAT “CAUSED” THEM TO “WILL” TO EAT OF IT?
You maintain it was just a free radical in there mind, that you somehow call a will, that was completely free and it happened on it’s own by it’s “free existence” to chose to eat. I on the other hand put forth that they were first tempted, and that “FORMED THERE WILL” which caused them to disobey GOD.
THEN YOU JUMP TO THE FACT THEY HAD FREEDOM TO EXPRESS THEIR “CAPTIVE” WILLS AS MEANING THE WILL ITSELF, BEING FREE, AS FREE would meanNING free from “ANY” INFLUENCES. I on the other hand say their wills were being made up of what was working in their mind.
You are still thinking i am saying they could not freely express or excercise their captivated will’s , i have never said that. I am talking about how the will itsel is formed not how it is CAUSED. NOT DESCUSSING THE FREEDOM TO EXCERCISE IT, THAT IS WHERE YOU ARE GETTING MIXED UP. IMO
T8…..first of all GOD DID NOT SAY MAN WAS FREE TO EAT OF “ANY” TREE, HE Commanded the not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, least they die. That is when man sinned by disobeying GOD’S COMMAND NOT TO EAT OF the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But you are right they did eat of it any way and all have,and all have died also.
And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
Man could eat from any tree means he was FREE to choose to eat from any of the trees. That is free will.
Yes there was one exception.
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat,
The latter is also free will because all though God commanded this, man went against what God commanded. Man chose to break that command because he was able to choose to do so.
So the choice that man was freely able to do was: to listen and believe the serpent, or to listen and trust in what God had said.
Free will in action Gene. The ability to choose among the available options.
My point is not that they could not freely chose to eat from it OR NOT, it is what made them WILL TO EAT OF IT, was it just some desire freely floating around in their head, that sudenly became their will, or was it THERE A “CAUSE” THAT “CAUSED” THEM TO “WILL” TO EAT OF IT?
Gene, let me translate your following sentence for you as you cannot see it obviously.
You said: My point is not that they could not freely chose to eat from it OR NOT
Means: You deny saying that man could not FREELY CHOOSE.
Sorry this is exactly what you are denying. Look at the subject title of this thread and the countless times you have said, “there is no free will”.
See that Gene. A contradiction and whether you realise it or not. I squeezed the truth right out of you so that you admitted that there is free will by saying that you have not denied saying that man could not choose freely.
Next, you say that “it is what made them WILL TO EAT OF IT“.
That is another subject Gene. You have admitted they had free will. So what you should be arguing for is what free will actually is. Not that it exists. Clearly it exists.
Please start up a new topic called “What exactly is free will” and humbly admit defeat with this topic. Do it for truth’s sake. Leave your own reputation out of it. Don’t let the pain of defeat make you proud and resistant. And an apology for all the time you have made people spend debating this when all the time, you really meant to argue what free will really is rather than denying its existence. I mean it about the apology. 113 pages amounts to a lot of precious time.
Think about what I am saying Gene.
It is better to heed the rebuke of a wise person than to listen to the song of fools.
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