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Kerwin….repent means to change you views which changes your ways, every error needs to be corrected, that is consistent with all scripture. There exists right, and there exists wrong, wrong need to be corrected. Jesus said “to him that overcomes” right?, but did he tell us how? Do you think its by our own so-called freewill choices?, or that he overcame by his own so-called freewill choices?, well, if you do you could not be further from the truth imo, Jesus overcame by the power of GOD, NOT HIS OWN WILL, HIS WILL HAD TO BE PUT TO DEATH,JUST AS OURS MUST ALSO. That is why he said “EVEN” AS, I HAVE OVERCOME, There is a way to overcome and it is not of the self, i assure you. If we could do it ourselves there would be no need for Jesus to be a propituation of our sins and not only ours, but the sins ofthe whole world. You have bought into one of Satans biggest lies, the lie of freewill salvation, that is exactly what Satan wants people to BELIEVE, so they will trust in “themselves” instead of GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS. HAVE YOU EVEN READ ALL THE SCRIPTURES I HAVE QUOTED OVER AND OVER HERE?, I am beginning to dought it.
peace and love to you and yours. …………gene
Gene,
I read the Scriptures that you quote and I research them as well. I just understand them different than you do.
You have not explained how a human being that has no free choice can repent for a sin since they are no more guilty of that sin than the gun a man uses to murder another man.
repent means to change you views which changes your ways, every error needs to be corrected, that is consistent with all scripture.
You are speaking of choosing to change their view. If they do not free choose to to change their view then they are not changing their view but rather something else is choosing whether or not to change their view.
Kerwin……You understand them differently ,because of your mind set, if you were open to the truth about this subject, you could easely see that those scriptures speak clearly against any, so-called free will, now notice i did not say againt a will, i said against a will, that itself is free, and therefore SOVERIGN in all things it choses.
Man is held accountable not because of a will that is supposedly free, but God requires judgement for all wrong, no matter who commits it, even if it is the result of a captivated will or not. GODS JUSCICE MUST RULE IN ALL THINGS, BOTH IN HEAVEN AND EARTH. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. …………….gene
Gene,
According to Scripture the soul who sins is the soul who dies. That is God’s judgement. The gun has no free will and so cannot sin. It is the freely chooses to use the gun to sin that judged guilty of that sin. The gun is unable to choose to do wrong as it has no free will.
You are telling man cannot choose to sin and so it follows they are not the one responsible for the sin they do as they are but instruments in the hand of the one that does choose to use them to sin.
No free choice does not hold up to Scripture as it means that a man can go before the Judge and say “Satan made me do it” or something of the like and so be judged innocent.
Kerwin……Man was not created as a gun, but man does do what is in him, if this is not the case then tell us why this scripture exists.
“FOR I WILL TAKE OUT OF THEM THE HEART OF STONE AND GIVE THEM A SOFT HEART, ANDI WILL WRITE MY LAWS IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE AND I THEIR GOD”.
Why would God have to even do that if we can of our own freewills chose too obey him?, Please answer the question. Who needs God to perform anything, after all you believe we by our own so-called freewill choices can choose to save ourselves right? God could not blind some, and open the eyes of others, because that simply would not be fair, God could not CREATE VESSELS OF wrath, and “CREATE” VESSELS OF MERCY, because that would not be fair either, after all this hip pocket God you’ve created for yourself, will only do what your so-called freewill allows, so he is not truly sovereign in your life after all, YOU ARE. You are not being CREATED UNTO GOOD WORKS, you are changing yourself unto good works, you chose not to be saved by GRACE, BUT BY YOUR own SO-CALLED “FREEWILL” choices. So tell us where does the grace of God fit into your picture or is it even there?
Why does the apostle John SAY? “ALL”, THAT IS IN THE WORLD, THE LUST OF THE EYES, THE LUST OF THE FLESH, THE PRIDE OF LIFE, ARE FROM THE WORLD, and the world is passing away and the lust with it. If it’s “ALL” a matter of freewill how can that statement be true.
Why would Jesus even say “NO” man “CAN”, come unto me unless the father draw/drag him”, and tell his deciples they did not chose him, he chose them.
You create all these senerio’s that have nothing to do with scriptures and try to force them into our textual conceptions, kerwin we are talking about the word of God here, not some philosophical reasonings. We are not guns here,but we are instruments in the hands of God, we are HIS WORKMANSHIP “CREATED” UNTO GOOD WORKS, NOT OUR WORKMANSHIP CREATED UNTO GOOD WORK,BY OUR OWN SO-CALLED freewill choices. GOD gets “ALL” the glory, not us. For we ARE SAVED by “GRACE”, AND THAT NOT OF OURSELVES, IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD. What part ofthat do you not understand Kerwin?.
peace and love to you and yours. ……………..gene
Gene,
Why would God have to even do that if we can of our own freewills chose too obey him?,
Without God it is impossible to choose to do all that is right. Our desires are in conflict with his. A man without the right equipment cannot breath vacuum no matter how much he freely chooses to do so, so a man without the Holy Spirit cannot choose to be like God in true righteousness and holiness no matter how much he choose to be so.
Just like breathing air is alliance to a tuna so is doing all that God commands without him alien to a human being, or any other creature of his.
Gene,
I do not believe you lack knowledge of my answer. Human beings do not have the power to overcome the world and God chose that it is only through Jesus Christ that we would be given that power to move mountains.
Kerwin, yes and JESUS SAID “NO” MAN “CAN” COME UNTO HIM UNLESS GOD “DRAW/DRAG HIM.
DOES THIS NOT PROVE MY POINT, not even to mention the many many other scriptures that gack this up, scriptures like “IT IS NOT WITHIN A MAN TO DRECT HIS STEPS, and again, IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT “WILLS”, BUT OF GOD THAT SHOWS MERCY. And again FOR YOU ARE “CREATED” UNTO GOOD WORKS, and again, GOD “WORKS” IN US “BOTH” TO “WILL” AND DO OF “HIS” GOOD PLEASURE. and again, NOT MY WILL BUT “THY” WILL, BE DONE, Kerwin i could go on and on as i have over and over here but what good has it done, I believe none what so ever. It has become useless for me to continue.
Whosoever has eyes to see and ears to hear let him see and hear. I know full well in my heart there exists no such thing as a will that is “free” ITSELF, but all are held captive by the thoughts of their minds. Unless GOD THE FATHER BRINGS US CHRIST WHO SET us FREE from that captivity, and sends us the holy spirit of God which begins to captivate our minds and CAUSES US TO WALK IN GOD’S WAYS, HIS STATUES AND LAWS. We COULD NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS ON OUR OWN “CAPTIVATED” WILLS, CHOSE HIS WILL,it simply was never in us to, of ourselves, TO choose GOD’S WAY.
What really get me is why cant people understand this, it is simply amazing to me. I will admit, maybe i just didn’t explain it right,but i did the best i could, that is the reason i ask you all to go to the other sites i listed, hoping they could better explain it to you all. The biggest problem i believe is people think i am saying we don’t have freedom to excercise our “captivated” wills, but i never have said that.
peace and love to you and yours. …………….gene
Gene.
We have covered that verse before.
It is equivalent to saying blessed are they that hunger and thirst for righteousness for they will be filled. God gives what they want so of course they will be drawn to it. It is their choice that drags them. Those that do not want to come out into the light because they love darkness. They are not drawn because the lure has no lasting appeal to them.
Are you claiming God is the soul that sins and so he is the one that will die?
I am asking because your chosen interpretation accused God of being the one that sins. I do not see how you do not realize it so you seem to be denying that you accusing God of sin.
Is a human being guilty of his own sin?
If the answer is yes then it follows there is free will.
If the answer is no then it follows he does not have free will.Kerwin……i have never said God sinned,but he did show what sin was , SIN IS TO MISS THE MARK, THAT GOD HAS SET, SCRIPTURE ALSO SAY SIN IS THE TRANGRESSION OF THE LAW. And no man has not sinned except JESUS. SO all have missed the mark of the high calling, so-much for freewill right, none could chose what is right, at least thats what God the Father said, need scripture i can get them for you. But again what is the use i have posted them before and simply ignored, GOD SAID HE LOOKED FOR “ONE” RIGHTIOUS PERSON AND FOUND “NONE”, SO A MANS OWN PERSONAL CAPTIVATED WILL APPART FROM GOD NEVER PRODUCED any thing it appears.
You relate freewill choice as if the person themselves chose GODS WAY ON their own, which is comletely against scriptures and even what JESUS HIMSELF SAID. WHAT PART OF THIS SCRIPTURE YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND, JESUS SAID “NO” MAN “CAN” COME UNTO ME EXCEPT THE FATHER DRAW/DRAG HIM. But according to you that simply is not true so your calling Jesus a liar? Now if a man can’t come to JESUS,unless the FATHER DRAW/DRAG HIM, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK HE CAN BY HIS so-called personal freewill choices. Why didjesus tellhis deciples that apart fromhim they could do nothing, i mean surely it all about us haveing a freewill and choseing for our selves right?
peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Gene,
Did you not listen to Jesus when he said what is unclean comes from a person’s heart. It is missing the mark by free choosing to act act according to one’s own evil desires. If I am the one that chooses to miss the mark then I am the one that sins but if I do not have free will then I am not the one who makes the choice. In that case the one that makes the choice is the one that sins.
Who chooses?
Kerwin……lets listen to what the apostle PAUL SAID, please try to understand exactly what he is saying, as quoting these over and over is tiring.
Rom 7 :14-25..> for we know that the law is spritual; but i am carnal,sold under sin.
Do you understand that Kerwin, sold under sin means he is held captive to sin.
Verse 15….> for that which I DO I allow not: for what I WOULD (WILL TO DO) that do I NOT; but that which i hate , that do I.
Kerwin look up the word would it means his will, and he said he did not do it. So how is his will free if he could not do what he wanted to do?
Verse 17…> NOW then, it is no more i that it, but sin that dwells in me.
KERWIN where is a will that is “FREE” there? Seems Paul could not do what he wanted to so how was he even free to chose. He was being held captive by his captivated will, nothibg free about it.
Verse 18…..> for i know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwells “NO” good thing: (why) because to WILL is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
So PAUL ADMITS HE IS BEING HELD CAPTIVE BY HIS captivated will. Why was not PAUL able TO PERFORM THAT WHICH WAS GOOD. BECAUSE HE WAS BEING HELD CAPTIVE BY HIS WILL THAT WAS IN HIM. It can’t get more clearer then that. Paul sure did not think he was free to chose whats good at all, because of his captivated will under the say of sin that dwelt in him.
Read all the rest of those scriptures and see if you can some how put them together and understand the is no such thing as a will that gives a anykind of freedom to a man, we are all held captive by our will which brings us into bondage of sin. There is nothing free about it.
I am tired of going around and around about this subject here, just believe what ever your so-called freewill drives you to believe. I have come to believe everone here will only believe what their captivated will wants them to believe, and there is apsolutly nothing free about it. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
Geme,
You are not addressing the point I made. Instead you are trying to convince me with passages I choose to interpret differently than you. Repeating them is not going to convince me your chosen interpretation is true.
Are we a captive to sin of we do not have the Spirit? Yes, as it is impossible to truly be spiritual without the Spirit. Abraham is an example of the best that can be done without the Spirit and he was just credited with righteousness for his faith. It is like a man attempting to breath water without a means to do so. I am positive you can understand this analogy I am using. Free will does not mean a human can be spiritual without the Spirit just like it does not mean a human being can breath water without gills.
In other words you are putting lack of free will where it does not exist.
Free will exists in the fact that a human being is responsible for their sins as without free will they cannot be responsible.
Kerwin……Again you are addressing a will, that not the point here, we indeed are held responsible for our choices, i never said we weren’t. But those choices have nothing to do with a will that is Free, But a will that is held captive by whats working AND “CAUSING” THOSE CHOICES. The reason you do not acknowledge what PAUL CLEARLY ILLISTRATED, is because you don’t grasp what he is saying properly. He said clearly he could not do what he wanted to, why? Because to “WILL” was present. He surely did not think him or his will was FREE to do what he wanted to do that is obvious in his wording. He clearly portrayed himself as being held captive by his captivated will. HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT? IT’S OBVIOUS THAT’S WHAT HE WAS TELLING US.
THAT IS WHY I HAVE TO KEEPING BACK TO THOSE SCRIPTURES OVER AND OVER HERE, BECAUSE YOU PEOPLE ARE NOT GETTING IT, NO MATTER HOW CLEAR IT IS PUT.
peace and love to you and yours. …………….gene
Gene,
Free will and free choice are linked as the definition of free will according to Merriam-Webster is “the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God”.
But a will that is held captive by whats working AND “CAUSING” THOSE CHOICES.
It seems you are speaking of why I choose what I choose and not an issue of free choice vs no free choice.
Kerwn…..I HAVE SAID THAT FROM THE BEGINNING that i was not talking about our liberty to express or excercise our “CAPTIVATED” WILLS. I AM SPEAKING OF WHAT MAKES UP THE WILL ITSELF, OF A PERSON , and that it is far from being FREE, it never was and it will never be either.
I can’t understand why you AND OTHERS would not have known that brother,I KEPT SAYING THAT OVER AND OVER, AND PRODUCE scripture after scripture to prove my points. Our WILL are made up of the forces that are working in us andthat alone proves the WILL ITSELF IS NOT “ITSELF” FREE. Againt it has nothing to do with the liberty we have to EXCERCISE THOSE “CAPTIVATED” WILL’S, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT brother.
AS far as the dictionary goes they are addressing the freedom of expressing our will, not the will itself also, IMO. AS far as dictionaries go i am cautious about there definitions, because of abridging they use changing meanings as time goes,i believe a UNIBRIDGED Dictionary is in most cases better,but not alway,dependes how far back it goes. Take the word FAITH, our present dictionaries completely miss the bibles definition of the word, if a dictionary gives a definition different then the scriptures, i will always go with the scriptures as being most accurate. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. …………….gene
Gene,
Previously I stated:
Free will and free choice are linked as the definition of free will according to Merriam-Webster is “the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God”.
You are speaking of ‘“CAPTIVATED” WILLS’ which means wills that are captivated by fate or God. Is that what you are trying to say?
T8…..O REALLY, ….Paul sure did not think that, read Rom 7:14-24 solwely this time and think clearly about what he is saying, he sure did not think his will was FREE at all, but bound by lusts and desires working in him bringing him into a state of captivity, he was harhly free nor was his will it self free either.
peace and love to you and yours………………gene
Gene read the whole of Romans to see his conclusion. He concludes that those who live by the flesh will die and those by the Spirit will live.
Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,He further teaches this to the Galatians:
Galatians 5:17
For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.Galatians 5:16
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.There is your answer Gene.
Yes his flesh was keeping him captivated to its desires, but God was also leading him and God gives strength. So here are the options. Follow the spirit or serve the flesh. If we are compelled to both, but can only do one at a time, then obviously it is us who choose when we serve God or when we succumb to the flesh.
God always gives a way out Gene and never allows us to be tested beyond what we can endure.
But know this, when we sin (and we all do), we have a covenant with God and we can confess our sins to him and he is just and able to forgive us our sins.
Look at the choices that are before us each day:
- Flesh or Spirit
- Kingdom of God or the world
- God or Satan
- Light or Darkness
- Love or Hate
- Give and receive or bribe and steal
Ultimately we are judged on which side of these we land on in life.
God has not abandoned us to the negative of these things. He has made it so we can choose this day whom and what we will serve by help with his Spirit.
Have you read anything in the Bible. It is full of such examples. Why let some silly pet doctrine negate half the verses in the Bible?
Call on God today and he will help you.
T8……i have called on God many times and he has helped me many times, you don’t get it, you admit it is The spirit, to you just gives us the options, that is where you are wrong, it is tbe SPIRIT OF GOD THAT “CAUSES” US TO WILL AND DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE. YOU are so concienced it is yourself that saves you, you can’t see it is GOD ALONE THAT SAVES YOU. You put all the cards in your own hands, you are the captain of your salvation, a God unto yourself, after all who NEEDS, a forgiving God because you can just save yourself, by your own so-called freewill choices.
You simply throw out the parts of what Paul clearly said, and go on as if he never said or meant what he said, in other scriptures. Pauls conclusion was not what you are saying by scrambling different scriptures, what he said was that there was no good in him because to WILL WAS PRESENT IN HIS FLESH, and when he would do good he found another LAW (forced compliance working in his members) that brought him into captivity, so he could not do what he wanted to do. He saw his SPRITUAL MIND AT WAR WITH HIS FLESH, AND HIS FLESH WON , THEREFORE HE SAID “O” WRETCHED MAN THAT I AM, WHO CAN DELIVER ME FROM THIS “BODY” OF DEATH”, he thanked GOD through JESUS CHRIST HECOULD BE DELIVERED. BUT YOU ON THE OTHER HAND SAY YOU CAN DELIEVER YOURSELF BY YOUR OWN SO-CALLED FREEWILL CHOICES. Interesting you say one thing, and The apostle PAUL SAYS ANOTHER.
T8…YOU CAN NOT change yoursel, nor deliver yourself by any of your own captivated wills choices, you must be set free from ONE captivated state and captivated by another, in your mind to even desire to do GODS WILL, and that takes GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF TO “CAUSE” THAT TO HAPPEN, by his SPIRIT WORKING IN you. Therefore it says,
“For he (God the Father) WORKS “IN US” BOTH TO “WILL” AND DO OF “HIS” GOOD PLEASURE”.
A mansowed seed in his field and went about his business and soon the seed brought forth first a shaft then beganto grow,the man did no tknow how it did it because the earth brings forth of it self from that which is sown in it. T8, EVEN SO THE SPIRIT BRINGS FORTH OF ITSELF IN THE HEART OF MAN, THAT WHICH IS SOWN IN IT. Jesus sows the seed (spirit) and our hearts are the field, all created by God just as the earth is, and if our hearts are good ground prepared by God beforehand then the seed (spirit) will take root and begin to grow.
It is all of God from start to finish, it is not by the captivated will of man, IMO
peace and love to you and yours……. ……….gene
Gene,
You have not addressed the post from which this comes.
You are speaking of ‘“CAPTIVATED” WILLS’ which means wills that are captivated by fate or God. Is that what you are trying to say?
Did you follow my reasoning in that post since it is based on the definition for free will I quoted and your own words.
It seems to me you believe in free will but believe that people have reasons for the choices that they make.
For example a man that does not have the Spirit cannot live by the Spirit so then they must live by the flesh. That man can be said to be a captive of flesh because he has no other choice but to live by it. You can also say he is a slave to sin because the fruit of the flesh is sin. Nerveless that man’s will is not captivated by fate or God.
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