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Carmillia…….i am not chosen because i chose God, he chose me, he created me this way i did not create myself. As far as knowing what we will do the next day goes, consider this scripture.
Job 33:15-17… In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep, falls upon men, in slumbering upon the bed; Then he (GOD) opens the ears of men, and seals, their instructions, that he (GOD) may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man, He (GOD) keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life fromperishing by the sword, he is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain……read it all shimmer, and espically
verses,29/30 ..Lo, all these things WORKS GOD oftentimes with man, to bringback his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.
Shimmer read the whole thing and ask your self where is man so-called freewill in that. Our GODLY CHOICES ARE all “CAUSED” by God himself. IMO.
REMEMBER WHEN JESUS SAID “labor not for meat that perishes, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the SON OF MAN, shall give unto you, for him HAS GOD SEALED.
Question, why would God “SEAL” Jesus, if it is all a matter of a so-called “freewill” choice, there would be no need to seal a person right?, for any purpose, after all, they could chose it and achieve for themselves, right?
peace and love to you and yours shimmer………….gene
Hi Gene.
I don’t see any problem with you believing as you do, though it is an interesting topic.
I still believe we have free will. I still believe God knows everything before it happens. I still have FAITH that GOD will LEAD US, and I know I love God because I choose to love God (Because God first loved us). And I also know that God is love.
We love, because He first loved us.(1 John 4:19)
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)
Choose for yourselves today whom you will serve. (Joshua 24:15)
Yes I know the scripture that you mention.
Peace and love to you and yours Gene.
Carmillia…..YES God did first love you and brought you to JESUS, inorder to forgive you your sins,. You were predestened by God , who works, “ALL THINGS”, according to the council of, “HIS WILL”, NOT OUR WILLS.
Haven’t you noticed how T8 and kerwin and others here, never address the actual scriptures as they are written about this subject, but add their ouwn thoughts into the text, to fit their perceptions. I have posted so many scriptures and they just avoid them as if they do not even exist in their bibles. The apostule Paulalso madeit clear that God alone decides the vessels of mercy and the vessels of wrath, he makes them the way they are. They can’t truly understand this one also, ‘FOR WHOM GOD KNEW HE ALSO “PREDESTINED” THEM TO BE “CONFORMED” UNTO THE IMAGE OF HIS DEAR SON.
I ASKTHEM TO GO AND READ WHAT L.RAY SMITH has said reguarding this subject, that maybe he could explained more clearly to them, lest they think i am just pushing my own belifes of on them. But to no avial, they believe they are in control of every facit of their live, THEY CAN SAVE THEMSELVES, BY THEIR OWN FREE WILL CHOICES, PURE HOG WASH.
T8, BROUGHT OUT where Josuha chose God’s way,but faild to tell us why, scripture says “BECAUSE THERE WAS A DIFFERENT SPIRIT IN HIM AND CALAB ASLO. BUT THEY WILL DO ANYTHING TO REMOVE GOD’S INFLUIENCING THEM BY HIS SPIRIT HE PUT IN THEM. Not een to mention the seventy elders he put his spirit into to help Moses rule Israel.
I showed them where predicted king Cyrus 200 years before his berth and even exactly what he would do. They can’t even explain how GOD COULD EVEN PREDICT any human being destiny, at all if itis all amatter of free self will. Scripture could neversay Gods will willbe done if we areto have our own freewills, because the future would be subject to constant change at any moment. Apsolutely no stibility could ever exi$t if a persons own so-called will was free to do what everthat person desired to do.
PEACE AND LOVE TO YOU AND YOURS SHIMMER……………….GENE
THAT’S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US, YOU WANT TO SELF ELCT YOURSELF, A COMPLETE Soverign being, MAKING ALL YOUR OWN CHOICES FREELY BY YOUR OWN SELF, WHO NEED God, you are able to achieve it all yoursel, I DO NOT WANT TO BE SOVERIGN IN ANYTHING, I HAVE SOMEONE THAT IS SOVERIGN AND IT SURE IS NOT ME OR “MY” WILL. I LIKE JESUS SAY, NOT MY WILL, BUT YOUR WILL BE DONE.
You need free will to chose God’s will. Once your will is no longer yours, then you are not choosing God, it is an automatic response.
Love is always a choice.
How did Satan become Satan? He must have chosen it at some point, even though he was perfect in his ways.
I have said all along that you are just wasting time. God gave Adam and Eve the ability to choose to eat from any tree and to choose not to eat from one tree. Choice and he gave it freely. Today, we have the same choice. Choice to serve God, or serve the world/money/self/Satan.
When Jesus said, not my will but yours, he chose that Gene. He could have chosen his own will because he was free to do so. But he chose to let God’s will supercede his own. And this is love in action. When we choose this, we do it because we love and trust God. Yes we should do the same, but the point is, we have the ability to not do that too if we want.
lol. Admit it Gene. To be captivated by God, you need to be able to choose that. This does not deny free will, it proves it. Further, you can still choose not God even after that. We all fall from time to time, surely you know that.
Be brave Gene. A good man can admit his mistakes. A proud man will stubbornly not admit them.
T8…..tell us what was the difference between the first ADAM, AND THE SECOND ADAM JESUS, WAS IT JUST A FREEWILL CHOICE, OR GOD HIMSELF BEING IN THE SECOND Adam Jesus, how could God predict exacrly what he would do, if it’s all up to a freewill, and how could God ever be sure Jesus would never turn against him, after all according to you he will alway have a will that is totally free right?. And i would apricate you sticking to scriptures to prove your points, instead of just ridiculing me as if i don’t have scripturial support. Just answer the scriptures i quote just as i answer yours, about JOSHUA AND THE OTHER SCRIPTURES. TELL US WHY SCRIPTURE SAY JOSHUA AND CALEB HAD A DIFFERENT SPIRIT IN THEM, THE SPIRIT OF GOD, AND THAT IS WHY THEY CHOSE TO TAKE THE LAND AND THE OTHERS WHO DID NOT HAVE CHOSE NOT TO. IT HAD NOTNING TO DO WITH A WILL THAT WAS FREE, BUT A WILLS THAT WERE BEING GUIDED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD. WAS IT A FREEWILL THAT CAUSED JOHNA TO GO AND PREACH TO NENAVAH.? WHY WAS HIS so-called freewill not heed by God, seening according to you God wants us all to just chose to obey by our own freewills.
You haven’t addressed a single scripture i have posted or even commited on,them, why is that T8 ?, but blurt out a bounch nonsense and then say things like a good man just admits his mistakes, so why don’t you just admit it then. Instead of using your trash talk against me as if i don’t know what im talking about, who gave you the right to try to belittle me or anyone else here. If you chose not to be in this discussion, because it is foolish or stupid to you then just bow out. I do not need you talking down to me about what i say or the scriptures i have quoted to try to prove my points here. So please just use scriptures as i am doing OK.
peace and love to you and yours……………..gene
Gene,
How can a man that has no free choice be responsible for their sin?
How can a human repent for sin they are not responsible for?Kerwin……first ofall i never said a manmake a choice,what i said wasthatchoice was notbasedonawillthat was FREE, YOUR CONFUSINGTHE ISSUE.
ALL WRONG HAS A JUST RECOMPENSE,NO MATTER WHO CHOSES IT. JUST AS ALL RIGHT CHOICES ALSO HAS A JUST RECOMPENSE, QUSTION IS WHAT IS DETERMINING THAT CHOICE IS IT THE PERSON HIMSELF OR WHAT IS INFLUENCING HIS MIBD, IS IT A CLEAN SPIRIT OR ANUNCLEAN SPIRIT, IS LUST HE RECIEVED FROM THE WORLD,OR PRIDE HE RECIEVED FROM LIFE IN THIS WORLD, all sin has a “CAUSE” and the effect is what we EXPERIENCE. IF the fear of those consequences is working in you it will “CAUSE” you to respond a certain way. Nothing free about it, just a WILL CAUSED by whats working in the mind of a man. If the spirit ofthe living GOD IS WORKING IN YOU YOU WILL CHOSE HIS WAYS, BECAUSE IT WILL “CAUSE” YOU TO. NOTHIBG FREE ABOUT IT. Haven’t you read where God said about man kind, “they have ALL TOGETHER BECOME USELESS OR WORTHLESS, THERE IS NON THAT SEEKS GOD.
Rom 3:10…..AS it is written there is NONE righteous, no NOT ONE; There is NONE that understans, there is NONE that seeks after GOD. They are ALL gone oyt ofthe way, they are ALTOGETHER become unprofitable.
Read all the way down to verse 18 , then come back and tell me how aney of us could chose GOD BY OUR OWN FREEWILLS. WITH GOD HIMSELF “CAUSING” US TO CHOSE HIM WE COULD NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS CHOSE HIM, WHY BECAUSE IT SIMPLY IS NOT IN MAN TO CHOSE GOD OR HIS WAYS. or haven’t you also read “IT IS NOT “WITHIN THE HEART OFMAN TO DIRECT HIS WAY., AND AGAIN “THE HEART IS DESPERATELY WICKED WHO CAN KNOW IT, I the LORD SEARCH THE HEART TO GIVE UNTO EACH ACCORDING TO HIS WAYS. THAT IS WHY KERWIN, GOD SAYS, I WILL TAHE OUT OF YOU THE STONEY HEART AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH (soft heart) I WILL WRITE MY LAWS IN YOUR INWARD PARTS, AND that is WHAT “CAUSES” A PERSON TO BE RIGHT WITH GOD, YOU OR MY PERSONAL WILLS THAT ARE FAR FROM BEING FREE, ARE CAUSED BY GOD TO CHOSE HIM. Sorry no credit goes to the self, but all credit goes the God the Father. We ONLY CHOSE WHAT IS WORKING IN US AND IT, ITSELF IS NEVER FREE, ONLY GIVEN LIBERTY TO EXCERCISE IT WHAT IS GOING ON IN US. NOTHING FREE ABOUT IT.
peace andlove to you and yours………….gene
Gene,
I am not understanding your answer but you seem to be saying a human being makes a choice and is responsible for the choice they make.
I am not sure how you believe someone that does not have free choice is responsible for their actions.
Perhaps a more brief answer would be more clear.
Kerwin…… no a man makes a decision by whats influencing him the most, before he even makes that choice, and if it is evil the natural consequences is what happens to him. That consequence takes place with good he does or evil, when mankind chose, by the “INFLUENCING of Satan to experience (know) good and evil, it tied his life to the results of those choices. But the Cause, of those choices are not from any freewill, because if that were the case there would be no CAUSE WORKING IN HIM TO MAKE “ANY” CHOICE of disobeying God, if the will was truly free now would there? Mans will was forged by Satan to make that decision, they did not do it on their own it was an influenced decision that caused them to sin. Nothing free about it. There minds were brought into captivity by Satan’s lies.
Jer 10:23….O LORD, I know that THE WAY of man is not in himself: it is not in a man that walks to direct his steps.
But you people BELIEVE THE WAY OF MAN IS WITHIN HIMSELF, and he is able to by his own will that you believe is competely free to direct his own steps. Scriptures disagrees with that point of view though.
Kerwin why are you not reading the scriptures i am posting here and at least concidering them? Even if you don’t understand, me read those scriptures i post and ask you to read. Haven’t you noticed not one person has quoted a single scripture that even say a man has a will that is”FREE” IN HIM, why?, because it’s not in scriptures, You would think that alone would cause you and others to at least question your assumption of a will that was FREE. The term “freewill” is a OXYMORON. BECAUSE THERE EXIST NO WILL THAT IS FREE ITSELF. ALL WILLS ARE BEING INFLUENCED CONTINUALLY by something.
peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Gene,
I read the passages you have quoted but as I have repeatedly pointed out what I hear from them is not what you hear.
Kerwin…… no a man makes a decision by whats influencing him the most, before he even makes that choice, and if it is evil the natural consequences is what happens to him.
Are you claiming a person’s will is influenced by their own desires?
Kerwin……yes, that is what i am saying, and those personal desires are a result of the spirit or spirits that are working in our minds. Rather it is of God or the world, and that is what forges our wills, NOTHING FREE ABOUT IT. People get mixed up by thinking because we have “LIBERTY” to excercise those working forces within us, means that the will “ITSELF” IS FREE, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.
peace and love to you and yours………..gene
Gene,
It seem you are claiming that a person’s will is not free because that person controls it in one way or another.
Kerwin…….whats working in the mind of that person is what is controlling his wants and desires, so his will is never free of what is effecting his mind. The will is the product of his mind so it “itself” is not free, as many assume.
We are CAUSED TO WILL, what we will, by the thoughts of our minds. Those thoughts are put there from the spirits working in our minds. Rather the spirit of the world or from the spirit of God . Spirits drives tbe will, the will does not drive the spirit. So our wills are CAUSED TO WILL AS THEY DO.
peace andlove to you and yours……………gene
Gene,
I agree that a person controls their actions with their mind but that along with other ways of controlling our actions is what free will is all about. Free will is not free of my control though it may be free of my mental control.
Kerwin. …..your will is the product of you minds thinking, and what is in your mind has been placed there by you thoughts comming from the spirits working in you, nothing free about it. A will is the after product of that process, so how could it be actually free itself, again i am not saying we do not have liberty to express our captivated wills.
I was just reading the other day, about a neuroscience experiment on freewills and in the experment they comcluded that the decision of a person was formed about 4-7 seconds before he ever became consciously aware of it, and to express his will, he was already predesposed to make that decision, which they are saying is proof that a freewill does not truly exist. This also i believe backs up the scriptures i have quoted here over and over. I am not a nerosecientist but what they are saying is this could completely destory the long existing philosophical argument that a WILL, THAT IS FREE even exists. There are other university studies that also now seen to back this up also. You can read it for yourself, i just typed in freewill on the internet.
Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene
Gene,
So what you are saying is that we are not conscious of our choice. 4-7 seconds is too long as there are situations when I have less than a second to respond. 4-7 fractions of a second perhaps. Our mind works fast and out perception depends on our focus.
It is not matter has either you have free will and are accountable for your choice or you do not have free choice and so are not accountable for your choice. The fact I am not aware of that choice in at least some cases does not mean I did not choose it according to the desires of my heart.
Kerwin……we keep going around in circles. Here is another site that you go to …God’s Golden Knight…maybe T8 CAN CHECK IT OUT ALSO, SEENING IT IS FROM New Zealand.
The nerosecientist who made the findings said it proves there is no freewills taking place because tbe mind was already predesposed to make that decision it makes, and therefore proves no will that was free exist in people. THERE IS SELF-WILL BUT THAT IS FAR FROM a WILL THAT IS FREE ITSELF. CHECK IT OUT. Not only doesscripture show our wills are not free, but modern science is also beginning to prove it.
peace and love to you and yours………..gene
I assume you speaking of the same article Gary Gutting is opining on at the New York Times Opininator blogs. If what he says is true scientists have ways of predicting an answer based on the thought processes that go into the choice. There prediction rate is only 60 to 80 percent. The only thing they prove is that humans are not always conscious of their thought processes used to arrive at a choice.
It is not a surprise as I can be trained to react to a situation quicker than I can consciously analyze it. The neuroscientist in question seems to be testing the unconscious thought “theory”. Wikipedia has an article on it.
The bottom line is if we have free will the we are accountable for our sins but if we do not have free will we are not accountable for our sins.
Kerwin……being accountable for sin, would mean no sin could ever be forgiven, but God has concluded ALL UNDER sin, that he may have mercy unto ALL. Were all being held accountble for sin, is because we all have sinned, and come short ofthe glory of GOD. SIN IS A STATE OF CAPTIVITY OF THE MIND, NOTHING FREE ABOUT IT, we must be delievered from that state of captivity by God, and that has nothing to do with our falsely assumed freewills, but the WILL OF GOD, brought about by HIS personal intervention into our lives.
Freewillers try to deal GOD OUT OF THE PICTURE, by thinking they themselv3s chose by their own so-called freewills to repent and change, which gives them all the glory of their salvation.
WHY CAN’T YOU ANSWER SCRIPTURES THAT PLAINLY SAY THAT GOD MAKES OUT OF THE SAME LUMP VESSELS OF MERCY and also vessels of wrath. How does a freewill fit into that in your reasoning process.
The blog you site was notthe report of the nerosecientist i was talking about, but it istrue rhat more and more scienrest are by more accurate expermentation comming to understand our will are not themselves free but are formed long before we ever come to the decisiobs we make , proving a will that is itself free is a false assumption. Which i also agree with., but my convection is based on scriptures i have over and over quoted here.
peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
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