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Good post Grasshopper, but I suspect that Gene will be too stubborn to accept your words and largely CHOOSE to ignore them. Much of the Bible wouldn’t make sense if Gene was right. We wouldn’t be set free, we wouldn’t bother with the gospel, we wouldn’t try to choose God each day in the decisions we make. Perhaps Gene believes his view because he is not free (by his own admission)? If he accepted the truth he could be set free and because Jesus is the truth, then Jesus is the one to set us free. But we choose whether to be free by choosing him. Choose you this day whom you will serve.
John 8:36
So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.Gene, why not ask God, for the son to set you free? Being free is liberating.
Gene,
1 Corinthians 1:26-31Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 that no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
A definition from Merriam-Webster online dictionary November 24,2014.
a strong inner impulse toward a particular course of action especially when accompanied by conviction of divine influence
A definition of inspire from Merriam-Websters online dictionary.
to influence, move, or guide by divine or supernatural
None of these deny free will and in fact Jonah ran away from his calling until convinced him not to rebel against it. It is also written:
Hebrews 3:15Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
15 while it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
So some choose to freely rebel even though they hear his voice while others freely choose to obey his voice. So it is clear that even though God chooses so do human beings.
From what I know God calls each and every one of us and chooses those that choose not to rebel in the likeness of those that chose to rebel in the Provocation.
Kerwin……you quoted those scriptures right, but then instead of excepting them as the are written, you changed the intent of wording to fit something completely different. Nowhere there does it even sujest GOD accepts man freewill choices as a means of salvatio or anything else, it clearly and precisely says, GOD CHOSES, not even a mention of a persons own free will chosing him, not even a hint of that. IMO
Please reread those scriptures and see if there is even a hint of a person chosing for themselves. Building a case against what scripture say is exactly what a person held captive by their own so-called “freewill” do, even though not a single scripture says we have wills that are free, that is just a human assumption. If a person had a will that was completely free he would not know if he were afoot or horseback, he would just be a complete idiot. The verywill itself means a determination of thought, and the is what makes a will, nothing about it being free Kerwin.
I have posted many many scriptures that proves what i am saying here, T8 KEEPS POSTING one, while ignoring all the m@ny scriptures i have over the years posted, he keeps quoting WHERE God told ISRAEL TO CHOSE THIS DAY WHO YOU WILL SERVE, what he negelected to tell is that none chose God They all rebelled against he, THEY ALLTOGETHER BECAME USELESS, he forgets where God said he held out his hand continuely to them, but they were stubbern ‘selfwilled” , rebellious and a desobedient people. He thinks people today chose God, and are not like those stiffneck people of those days, he believes people today have a different kind of freewill as they did i gess, he believes it all up to the individual to chose God on his own or not, this boasts his ego, giving himself the glory of his salvation, he thinks he is SOVERIGN IN HIS OWN LIFE TO LIVE JUST AS HE PLEASES. HE IS A GOD UNTO HIMSELF, JUST AS ALL WHO HANGE ON TO THE IDEA THEY ARE FREE TO DO WHAT EVER THEY WILL TO DO. SELF FREE WILLERS, ARE NOT “CREATED” UNTO RIGHTIOUSNESS, THEY ARE SELF WILL UNTO RIGHTIOUSNESS, BY THEIR OWN “SOVERIGN” WILLS WHICH THEY BELIEVE IS COMPLETELY FREE OF ALL INFLUENCE, OF GOD. They don’t need God to take out of them the stony hearts andgive them hearts of flesh, nor do the need God to write on their hearts his law in their inward parts, they can do it themselves.
That is not the gosple i read about, i know i did not chose myself, i can take no credit for my salvation, while so-called “freewillers” take ALL the credit. They leave no room for GOD’S GRACE, they think they do not need it, after all they will alway chose for themselves whats right and whats wrong who needs God theyare perfectely able to make itthemselves. Pure hogwash. IMO
peace andloveto you and yours…………….gene
Gene,
I was pointing out you were hearing what Satan wanted you to hear and then I used the meaning of English words to reveal that I heard a different message. A message of those that hear the voice of God and then choose to rebel against his call or to listen to it. I hear how God then chose the ones who did not harder their hearts.There is a reason that we are instructed by God to choose not to harden our hearts as they did in the Provocation. That clearly means we can either choose to disobey that instruction or choose to obey that instruction. If we are puppets under God’s control then those words that God spoke through the writer of Hebrews would be vain.
You have chosen a wrong path on this subject as we human beings are responsible for our actions even though they are made only because chooses to suffer us to make evil decisions as well as righteous ones.
Kerwin……you say if we chose not to harden our hearts as if we are in control of our hearts, right?,then why did God, say this then?
Eze 11:18-19…And I WILL GIVE them one heart, and I WILL PUT A NEW SPIRIT WITHIN YOU; AND I will take the STONY HEART, out of there flesh, and give them a heart of flesh. WHY? For what reason will he do this?, V 19…THAT THEY MAY WALK IN MY STATUES AND KEEP MY ORDANIENCES, AND DO THEM, and I WILL BE THEIR GOD.
Eze 36:26-27…..A new heart also will I GIVE YOU, and a new spirit will I PUT WITHIN YOU: and I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART out of YOUR FLESH, and I WILL GIVE YOU a heart of flesh. V 27..and I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND “CAUSE” YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUES, AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS, AND DO THEM.
Now WHO IS “CAUSING” IT ALL, IS IT OUR OWN SO-CALLED “FREEWILL”, OR IS IT GOD “CAUSING IT ALL TO HAPPEN FROM START TO FINISH. SHOW ME WERE, A FREEWILL CHOICE IS IN ANY OF THOSE SCRIPTURES?
SO WHO IS FOLLOWING SATAN , AND WHO IS FOLLOWING THE WORD OF GOD? NOW GIVE ME YOUR RENDITION OF THOSE SCRIPTURES IN YOUR WAY OF VIEWING THEM KERWIN. SEE IF YOU CAN CHANGE THEN TO MEET YOUR VIEW OF A FREEWILL. I DON’T EVEN HAVE TO COMMIT ON THEM THEY ARE CLEARLY WRITTEN AS THEY ARE, I DON’T NEED TO TRY TO GO TO A DICTIONARY TO TRY TO DERIVE A DIFFERENT MEANING FROM WHAT THEY CLEARLY SAY. BUT YOU AND ALL SO-FREEWILLER WILL HAVE TO DO ONE OF TWO THING JUST COMPLETELY IGNORE THEM AS IF THE WERE NOT EVEN WRITTEN, OR START TO CHANGE WHAT THEY CLEARLY SAY RIGHT?
I have posted these along with many others but the response to them is forted by simple CARNEL WORLDLY REASONING. AND THEN SAYING BECAUSE I BELIEVE WHAT IS WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURE CLEARLY, AND TRUTHFUL, I AM FOLLOWING SATAN.
peace and love to you and yours…………..gene
Gene, I see your captivated will has led you post here again. Same with my captivated will. There is nothing we can do about it and cannot come to agreement because we cannot be free from our captivated will. Dang our captivated wills, how can we ever be free? lol.
peace and love to you and yours…………..gene
You cannot really mean this because this is your captivated will speaking. If you were free to say it, then you might genuinely mean it.
T8……NOW YOU FINDLY HAVE TOLD THE TRUTH, ABOUT YOUR AND MY WILLS. YOU MAY NOT WANT TO BECOME FREE FROM YOUR SELF DRIVEN WILL, THAT YOU MISTAKINLY THINK IS FREE, I ON THE OTHER HAND BY THE EFFECTUAL WORKING OF GOD’S SPIRIT, WANT TO BE EVEN MORE CAPTIVATED BY MY GOD AND HIS WILL, EVEN TO THE POINT THAT I COULD DO EVERY THING THE WAY HE WOULD, I DESIRE TO PUT MY OWN WILL TO DEATH, AND LET HIS WILL BE DONE IN EVERY FACET OF MY LIFE.
THAT’S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US, YOU WANT TO SELF ELCT YOURSELF, A COMPLETE Soverign being, MAKING ALL YOUR OWN CHOICES FREELY BY YOUR OWN SELF, WHO NEED God, you are able to achieve it all yoursel, I DO NOT WANT TO BE SOVERIGN IN ANYTHING, I HAVE SOMEONE THAT IS SOVERIGN AND IT SURE IS NOT ME OR “MY” WILL. I LIKE JESUS SAY, NOT MY WILL, BUT YOUR WILL BE DONE.
peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
T8……THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD ABIDING IN ME LEADS ME TO DO IT. BUT YOU PROBELY DON’T UNDERSTAND THAT. YOU SAY IT IS NOT GENUINELY, BUT THE LOVE OF GOD THAT HAS BEEN SPREAD AROUND IN MY HEART SAYS DIFFERENTLY. NOW HAVE BECOME A JUDGE OF MY HEART ALSO T8? MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOU,
peace and love to you and yours……………gene
There is not one mention of any one “so-called “freewill” chosing God, in any of those scriptures in fact just the oppisite, it is God who is doing the chosing not us. We should rejoice in knowing this, that GOD so loved us he chose us from the very foundations of the world to be saved through his MERCY AND GRACE AND LOVING KINDNESS, JUST AS IT SAYS “FOR WHOM HE FORKNEW HE ALSO PREDESTINED” .
Gene, yes, so we know God has foreknowledge and sees all things and knew whom would be saved from the foundation of the world, so, where is the problem? God sees all thing which happen before they happen. Have you ever had a de javu experience, Gene? What caused that? How did you see some situation before hand? I believe God knows EVERYTHING, God knows what you will do when you wake up in the morning, even what clothes you will put on, and who you bump into in the day. So, before you were born, God KNEW YOU! God knew every day of you life. Isn’t that amazing. God KNEW you would choose Him! Praise God for that. However, Gene… YOU made those choices! And when you made the choices God knew you would make….. Then God helped you (as scripture attests, which you post yourself)……
Therefore, you are chosen, because YOU chose God (:
Carmillia…….i am not chosen because i chose God, he chose me, he created me this way i did not create myself. As far as knowing what we will do the next day goes, consider this scripture.
Job 33:15-17… In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep, falls upon men, in slumbering upon the bed; Then he (GOD) opens the ears of men, and seals, their instructions, that he (GOD) may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man, He (GOD) keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life fromperishing by the sword, he is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain……read it all shimmer, and espically
verses,29/30 ..Lo, all these things WORKS GOD oftentimes with man, to bringback his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.
Shimmer read the whole thing and ask your self where is man so-called freewill in that. Our GODLY CHOICES ARE all “CAUSED” by God himself. IMO.
REMEMBER WHEN JESUS SAID “labor not for meat that perishes, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the SON OF MAN, shall give unto you, for him HAS GOD SEALED.
Question, why would God “SEAL” Jesus, if it is all a matter of a so-called “freewill” choice, there would be no need to seal a person right?, for any purpose, after all, they could chose it and achieve for themselves, right?
peace and love to you and yours shimmer………….gene
Gene,
Eze 11:18-19…And I WILL GIVE them one heart, and I WILL PUT A NEW SPIRIT WITHIN YOU; AND I will take the STONY HEART, out of there flesh, and give them a heart of flesh.
We already have discussed this since it is clear that the change in a person comes by choosing to live by the Spirit and the Spirit can only be received and lived by using faith.
A man believes because he wants to believe the message while another does not believe because he does not want to believe the message.
You can follow the cause and effect chain back to God who started it by creating us. Some he created as noble vessels and some he created as common vessels.
Free choice mean that a human being acts of themselves but God created the human being.
I am responsible for my own actions.
I accept the guilt for my sins and seek to overcome them by faith in Jesus Christ.
Kerwin……. Jesus plainly said “NO” MAN “CAN”, come unto me “EXCEPT THE FATHER DRAW (Greek DRAG) him, so HOW does a person OWN CHOICE fit into that scripture.
Kerwin, what you are not truly excepting scriptures as they are written, but adding your own personal thoughts into the text. Please let the texts as they are written, be excepted, they speak clearly for themselves. And must be excepted as they are written. THE TEXT CLEARLY SHOWS IT IS NOT A HUMAN BEIGN ACTING OUT OF his OWN WILL, BUT GOD WHO IS ACTING BY HIMSELF and performing his actions on us that “CAUSE” THE RESPONSES HE DESIRES FROM US. How many scriptures must be posted that clearly show this to be true.
peace and love to you and yoyrs……………..gene
Gene,
We have already discussed this. God drags/draws by their own desires which is why it is written than blessed be they that hunger and to be like God in true righteousness and holiness as they achieve their desire and why it is said of those that are not drawn by God is that they do not want to come into the light. We are instructed that God sets up a place and time for each man to choose to reach out for him or not. My will is not free of my desires, it is the result of my desires.
Jesus calls all men to choose to repent less they perish. He would have no need to do that if there were not free will. Human beings are not puppets but instead choose their own path.
Kerwin……your adding to scriptures all kinds of things which they do not specifically say. No where does scripture say we chose God or JESUS BY THE ACT OF OWR OWN FREEWILLS. I HAVE POSTED SCRIPTURE AFTER SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS WE ARE “CAUSED” TO CHOSE GOD AND HIS WAYS. EVEN THE WHOLE HISTORY OF MAN PROVES THAT POINT. There could not be a single prophesy fullfiled if was a matter of freewill of man. Apsolutely no person could be predicted to do anything , if what you believe is true. God could not formulate any plan for anyone, not now nor in the future , because he would never know what a person would do next, not now or in the future, if we are governed by our own so-called freewills.
You say we have already discussed those scriptures, right, and your conclusions were wrong, in fact they were completely wrong as well as others here, also, reguarding those scriptures i have posted, you all force the texts to say what they are not saying, nor even hinting at. Go back and read them just as they are written, this time only read what is written, without adding to them some kind of forumla to force them to meet your preconcieved suppositions about your will being free.
I say and scripture proves we are CAUSED TO CHOSE WHAT EVER WE CHOSE NOTHING FREE ABOUT IT, not now or ever has been.
As far as light goes it is God that enlightens us himself to see and understand as he does, giving yourself the credit of self choice that comes from self, only lessen God, and magnifies the self, that is what Satan wants people to think, and being that the whole world lies in deception, the idea of a will that is itself free, is one of his biggest deceptions, it works to “seperate” God from the person, and his life, making a persons life and salvation all about themselves. It is just another Satanic “DOCTRIN OF SEPERATION”, a ploy he uses to fool people to thinking their destiny and life is all in their own hands. It is just another of his deception to exclude God in the decision process of our lives, HOW?, by excluding him from having power over our wills to “CAUSE” his personal desires for us be fullfiled and become a reality in our lifes. Freewill self salvation by our own so-called freewill is an apsolute lie.
pea e and love to you and yours…………….gene
Gene,
In your post, you are in essence admitting that we can do something other than what God’s Will for us is. You continue to say that God causes us to walk in His Way(clearly YOUR understanding of the word ’cause’ in scripture means “to force”), but then you say Satan has the power to deceive us and keep us from walking in God’s Way because we fall for his ploys. Why do you warn against being deceived by Satan if God will MAKE US walk straight and righteously, regardless of Satan’s attempts? Are you afraid that we might somehow choose to do evil instead of doing good? Do you see how you continually contradict yourself and your theory, Gene?
~~~~~~~~~
GrasshopperGene,
Luke 13:3Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Should I explain English to you who I believe should know it?
I tell you Jesus is telling all that hear him that except they choose to repent that they will perish.
Why do you choose to deny it?2 Peter 3:9Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
We are told God desires that each and every person choose to come to repentance.
It is clear he does not control that choice as then we would already all have repented and done all that is right.A definition of repent from Merriam-Websters online dictionary
to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one’s life
No one that is not responsible for their own actions can do this. In order to turn away from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one’s life you must have free will.
If God was the one causing me to sin then he would have to turn away from his sin and dedicate himself to the amendment of his life. I having no free will would be guilty of nothing and so would have nothing to repent.
To claim you are without free will is makes the whole message of salvation of no effect and according to you Jesus Christ lived and died in vain.
If no one has free will, then we are at the mercy of a being who has written a book and we are merely the written characters. This means that Satan did not freely choose to rebel. His rebellion and subsequent suffering to other beings was part of the book. There is nothing that no one can do. Such is the dismal view of reality that Gene is trying to teach here. Even I cannot help writing this post in his view.
Gene,
Gentiles were separate from God for it is written:
Ephesians 2:12-13Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
12 that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Sinners in general are separate from him.
Isaiah 59:2Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
2 but your iniquities have separated between you and your God,
and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.He sent Jesus Christ that we might be brought close. Even before Jesus Christ came people could reach out to him though their sins still separated them from him.
Acts 17:27Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
27 that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
He desires that each of us choose to feel after him.
Joshua 24:15Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
This is the choice that Joshua told the people of Israel to make so long ago.
Gene, did God lie when he said:
Genesis 2:15-17
Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”First thing is God said they could FREELY eat. Secondly, he said “you shall NOT eat”, yet somehow they chose to eat because they were able to FREELY CHOOSE right. Further, he said this at the beginning, so man was given free choice at the beginning.
There it is Gene. God freely let them choose. ‘Freely’ is the word that you are disputing, yet God said it himself. Is God a liar? If we are to believe you, then we have to disbelieve what God said. So think about it. Do you really think we would believe you over God?
Give it up Gene. Wisdom is to know when you are wrong. Accept you error and consider it a benefit that you have learned something new. Let me freely take a guess though. You will continue to CHOOSE to be stubbornly wrong. Am I right in my prediction? Feel FREE to reply. lol.
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