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Hi Gene
Are you saying that no matter what choices we make, whether good or bad, that God has chosen us from the beginning no matter what?
Even if we made what appeared to be the wrong choice at the time and fell, whether through our own sin or not, regardless, we were led there and were guided there to fall, because the outcome took us into a different direction that led us to God or put us back on track?example, Moses killed the Egyptian which was wrong, and because of that, he fled and separated himself from the palace.
To God it didn’t matter, he was chosen anyway. The question is did God guide him to kill that Egyptian so that God’s plan could be carried out. I think yes.If this is what you mean, I agree, because I’ve been looking up some scriptures.
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
If we sin or fall, it’s part of the journey. If we are chosen, God will punish and correct us when we err, because everything works for the good for all those who love him, …and those choices we made were put there for the plan to work in our lives.
And some make bad choices, because their hearts are dark, and never learning. So it all depends on who is chosen and who is not.
God draws all men to himself, whom he chooses. Not all are chosen, but all get a chance to run the race. I think it depends on the heart, that God can see into the heart from the beginning before we are even born. There must be something in there that he likes, to draw that one to himself. What do you think? Remember God hated Esau? He saw something in him he didn’t like even before he was born.
I think I’m getting a little closer to understanding where you are coming from now…maybe?
Journey………You have it right, God know from our very beginning that we would seek him in our hearts, he created us that way, just as he said about Jacob AND Esau. Everything in creation works by cause and effect, rather physical things or spritural things. This is evident and seen in all of creation. Journey there are many, many, scriptures also back this up. Our God is “SOVERIGN” IN “ALL” things. We are “HIS” workmanship created for good works, we should all be humbled by knowing this. We give our HEAVENLY FATHER all the credit for our creation and salvation.
He chose us in the beginning for salvation, to be vessels of his mercy by forgiving us our transgresions, through JESUS who is the Christ, not accounting our sin against us. Therefore king David said, “blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered, blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputs not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guil. Those whobase there salvation on there own freewills have a hard time withthose scriptures.
The problem here is that many are seeing God allowing us to excercise our “captivated” wills as meaning the will itself is totally free, nothing could be further from the truth. I am glad you can understand this brother.
PEACE AND LOVE TO YOUAND YOURS……………GENE
Kerwin…..Correct, therefore the will itself is not free, it’s the liberty to EXCERCISE THOSE DRIVEN DESIRES that is free. You are not disagreeing with me brother. Your intelctual emotional desires, are what make up your will. What drives those is what forms our WILLS, be it from God or from the world. John said all that is in the world , the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes they pride of life are from the world, and all of this is passing away and the lust also with it.
Therefore it says “the Lord bless you and “KEEP” you, the LORD MAKE HIS face shine upon you and be GRACEIOUS unto you, the LORD lift up his countance upon you and GIVE YOU PEACE”.
Those being called by God are kept by him, and God know all along who he is going keeping to keep and who he is not, it is not our wills that will be done but his will. Therefore it says,…. “it is not of him that “willeth”, but of God, that showeth mercy”.
Now if we are found as vessels of his mercy, how blessed we are? Now where is boasting, it is elimitated by the effectual working of our HEAVENLY FATHER. No one will be able to get in Gods the Fathers face and say it was by my own so-called will that was free, that i was able to save myself, because my greate “freewill” choices.. Why because the FATHER HAS COMPLETLY ELIMINATED THAT PRIDE OF LIFE from man. He himself is the author and finisher of our salvation, just as he was for all the apostles, all saints, and yes even our brother the lord Jesus the christ “of” God….. “For we are SAVED by GRACE AND THAT NOT OF OURSELVES” IT IS A GIFT OF GOD” IMO.
peace andlove to you and yours…………….gene
Hi Gene
You are going in very very deep here but well explained.
I completely see where you are coming from now, and why every one has had their backs up, it was just a misunderstanding on our behalf of the message you were trying to convey.I agree with you.
Cammillia,
I believe that is just a different use of the word will. It seems to means desire in that sentence and choice when you are speaking of free will. I cannot be sure as desires and choice are linked.
Hi Kerwin. I have no idea.
Heb-6-4″ in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Were they led and then turned away through no choice of their own? Clearly not.
“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other
“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? “For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.”
So many other verses where God pleads for us to turn to Him. We are clearly given the choice. Just because God who knows everything can foresee into the future and knows all about us does not mean we have no choice, otherwise…. (more to say but i will leave it there as it gets too deep).
God is sovereign, and with that sovereignty he gave us sovereignty over our own destiny. Even when our oldest ancestor made it impossible for us to be with God, God found a way to restore us if we chose him.
With the angels, he did not spare those who sinned. They had perfection and rejected God. God honored their will.
It would be a vindictive God that destined anyone for Hell intentionally.
Rather, God is not willing that any should perish, but that all will be saved.
Give God some credit Gene. He made us free agents because love cannot exist when there is no choice.
If you do not choose of your own free will to love God, then you cannot love God. Yes God loved us first, but we choose to respond with acceptance of his love by reflecting that love back at him, or we reject him. This is our ultimate choice.
Choose you this day whom you will serve.
Choice is our sovereign and that is why we are responsible for our choices.
but are held captive by what is driving them.
Your view on this is wrong. If it were right, then God is ultimately and intentionally sending people to Hell.
Far from it. He is not WILLING that any should perish. He cannot control our will then can he?
Jesus said, “not my will but your will”.
Also: And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment.
Why? Because his will is that none perish. If we perish then, it is because we chose outside of God’s will.
He has given us what we need to choose him. We have the gospel. Those who do not still have the law. The written law or the law written on the heart of every man. Some CHOOSE to sear that though.
Carmillia,
So many other verses where God pleads for us to turn to Him. We are clearly given the choice. Just because God who knows everything can foresee into the future and knows all about us does not mean we have no choice, otherwise…. (more to say but i will leave it there as it gets too deep).
It does seem to get complex and so hard to understand. I am not sure it is all that important unless your understanding makes God something he is not.
T8…..You couldn’t be more wrong, even if you tried to imo. On the one hand you say God is Soverign, and on the other you say we are soverign, you have no scripture that backs that up. T8 i see you did not read my post to you to study the scriptures i ask you to read did you? Rom 9:6-23 please do this and tell us what that means to you.
Another thing God told ISREAL TO CHOSE so what did they all chose, it was to desobey God, so their freewills wern’t working to good right? So will all of ISRAEL GO TO HELL THEN, if so why does it say “for all Israel SHALL BE SAVED”
Rom 11:25-27… For i would not, brethern that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in you own conciets; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26, And so “ALL” OF ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. 27, For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away th=ir sins.
T8 if we each have our oun sovergin freewills, how can scripture say “ALL OF ISREAL SHALL BESAVED” where is individual “SOVERGINTY” fit there.
Tell me T8, where does you so-called “freewill” doctrine fit in those scriptures? I wounder even if you are reading and thinking about those scriptures i have been quoting.Another thing, you tell me “Gene give God some credit”, fact is I give God “ALL” the credit, myself none, it is you who is only giving God “SOME” of the credit” by giving your own so-called freewill self the rest of the credit, IMO.
peace and love to you and yours………….gene
Gene,
Correct, therefore the will itself is not free, it’s the liberty to EXCERCISE THOSE DRIVEN DESIRES that is free.
When I say free will I do not mean it is free of my desires. According to Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary desire means among other things “ to long or hope for“. I would be a computer if I made choice that were not driven by my desires. I am not sure if I as a human being can even make a choice that is free from my own desires though I believe I can give the appearance of doing so because I am compelled by my desire to do so.
Ask T8, or anyone else if they believe their will is free of their own desires?
Carmilla……You quoted a good scripture that says we are to make ourselves a new spirit and change our hearts, right?,but who has done that? Can a Lepord changes it’s spots, can an Etheopin his skin, no they can’t, neither can we change by our hearts and spirits by ourown freewill choices. That is why God must do it for us.
Eze 36:23-32 read it all, it clearly shows it is God alone who CAUSES IT ALL,
VERSE 26, A new heart also will I (God) give you, and a new spirit will I (God) put within you: and I (God) will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and give you a heart of flesh (soft heart). 27, and I (God) will put my spirit within you, and “CAUSE” you to walk in my statues and you shall keep my judgements and do them.
Shimmer…..Notice who “CAUSES” IT ALL, is it not GOD?. You see it is all Cause and Effect, nothing free about it, from start to finish it is ALL a work of God, we are just the BLESSED RECEPIENTS OF HIS MERCY, GRACE, and LOVING KINDNESS. I like brother Paul have NO Comfidence in my FLESH, because, as he said, to “WILL” IS PRESENT and that will is far from being free it is held in a state of captivity, by the sin that dwells “in” my members. IT’S ALL A WORK OF GOD, FROM START TO FINISH, i have no confidence in me, but ALL CONFIDENCE IN MY GOD AND YOUR GOD, MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER,
PEACE AND LOVE TO YOU AND YOURS SHIMMER……………..gene
Kerwin…..Right i never said you could make a choice apart from you will, that impossible, what i am saying is that that choice is not a “free” one it is based on what is driving your mind and heart, and that is hardly free at all. What is influencing you is a CAUSE, AND THE “EFFECT” IS YOUR WILL, So the will ITSELF was not and is not free at alll. Remember Kerwin, i am not saying wedon’t have freedom to EXCERCISE our influenced and captivated Wills, i am only talking about the will themselves. I believe you understand that and do agree with what i have been saying, this is a very important subject to understand brother.IMO
peace and love to you and yours………gene
Gene,
Advocate for free will do not believe that random will is free will. That in itself means the will is directed. It is directed by the individual themselves. In my understanding one of the persons desires is directing their choice. Hypothetically of I was able to determine which desire was overriding at any one time and I knew all the factors involved in the choice to be made I could predict that choice. I have no way to test that as I have neither the information required not the intellect needed. I believe God has both. I am not sure he needs them as he may already know and so has no requirement to figure out anything.
The fact that God can both predict the future and knows in advance the future that will be does not mean their is no free choice as God is not doing anything to control his creations. He does manipulate events and people by using his knowledge to obtain the results he desires but in doing so he does not control the person but instead uses his knowledge of what they would do in each and every turn to bring them to times and locations where they can freely choose to reach out to him.
My choices are driven by my desires but I am the one that chooses what desire drives my choices. In this way Jesus also freely chose to deny his own beastly desires and do God’s desired because he desired to be like God in true righteousness and holiness in all he did and said.
In short we need to get together on what the words “free will” mean.
It does seem to get complex and so hard to understand. I am not sure it is all that important unless your understanding makes God something he is not.
I used to have a problem with those who said God would punish people forever in eternal conscious torment, simply because they decided not to follow him. Their belief contradicted a God who is love, and a God who forgives, and a God who teaches us to do the same. To me, they were describing a different god.
God is obviously fair and gives us the choice. If we turn away from God, that is our choice. Alternatively, if we go to God, that is our choice. If we go to God because we love him, not because we fear punishment or similar, that is what God desires – worship in spirit and TRUTH. imo.
Carmilla……You quoted a good scripture that says we are to make ourselves a new spirit and change our hearts, right?,but who has done that? Can a Lepord changes it’s spots, can an Etheopin his skin, no they can’t, neither can we change by our hearts and spirits by ourown freewill choices. That is why God must do it for us.
Gene. I agree with you on that. God causes our minds to search out for him, and our hearts are healed and changed also by him. We could never do it on our own, amen.
Ezek 36-25 “I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Shimmer…..Notice who “CAUSES” IT ALL, is it not GOD?.
Yes, Gene.
Shimmer…..Notice who “CAUSES” IT ALL, is it not GOD?. You see it is all Cause and Effect, nothing free about it, from start to finish it is ALL a work of God, we are just the BLESSED RECEPIENTS OF HIS MERCY, GRACE, and LOVING KINDNESS. I like brother Paul have NO Comfidence in my FLESH, because, as he said, to “WILL” IS PRESENT and that will is far from being free it is held in a state of captivity, by the sin that dwells “in” my members. IT’S ALL A WORK OF GOD, FROM START TO FINISH, i have no confidence in me, but ALL CONFIDENCE IN MY GOD AND YOUR GOD, MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER,
I agree with you there, that we are the blessed recipients of Father’s mercy, love, and forgiveness. Also, that it is all God’s work from the start to the finish. And, our confidence is in Him only. But….. that does not mean to say that we had not free will before God caused all of that to happen.
The fact that God can both predict the future and knows in advance the future that will be does not mean their is no free choice as God is not doing anything to control his creations. He does manipulate events and people by using his knowledge to obtain the results he desires but in doing so he does not control the person but instead uses his knowledge of what they would do in each and every turn to bring them to times and locations where they can freely choose to reach out to him
Completely agree, Kerwin.
Camillia,
Thank you accept is was supposed to say “at each and every turn” instead of “in each and every turn “. My error 🙂
Kerwin and Camillia…..Do me a favor, go back and reread CAREFULLY Eze 36:27, please notice what God said that, “he” would “CAUSE” us to walk in his statues, and keep his judgements. Now where does our so-called “free” will choices, CAUSED by us fit in ,if it is God “CAUSING” IT ALL TO HAPPEN?,
Again lets be clear i am not saying we do not have liberty to express our “influenced” and “captivated” WILL’S, but those wills will never chose Gods way unless he “CAUSES” IT TO HAPPEN.THEY WILL “only” chose there own way so, We are saved inspite of ourselves, it is the Will of God that CAUSES him to CAUSE US TO SEEK HIM, BY CAUSING US TO DO, HIS WILL. MAN wants a WILL competely seperate of Gods, BECAUSE he wants to be SOVERIGN HIMSELF, IN DETERMINING HIS OWN FUTURE, A GOD UNTO HIMSELF. That is the nature and driving force in the mind of carnal men, that was the mindset of Adam and Eve and ever one sense. They do not want to obey God unless it comes from the self, by a suposed will that is ‘free’ but all wills are held captive by what is CAUSING THEM TO WILL IN THE FIRST PLACE, the word freewill is an Oxymoron, because no WILL THAT IS FREE “ITSELF” EXISTS, ONLY THE FREEDOM TO “EXCERCISE” ITSEL IS FREE. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………..gene
Gene wrote:
Again lets be clear i am not saying we do not have liberty to express our “influenced” and “captivated” WILL’S, but those wills will never chose Gods way unless he “CAUSES” IT TO HAPPEN.THEY WILL “only” chose there own way so, We are saved inspite of ourselves, it is the Will of God that CAUSES him to CAUSE US TO SEEK HIM, BY CAUSING US TO DO, HIS WILL.
OK then, Gene…if what you think is the absolute truth is indeed the absolute truth…why is it, then, that God doesn’t “cause” ALL to seek Him and ALL to do His Will? Why would God cause MY no good heart to seek Him and not the poor slob next to me, who has the same kind of no good heart as I have, to NOT seek Him? If what you think is the truth IS the truth, that only means one thing…which is that God DOES will some to be condemned, even though scripture says He does not wish anyone to perish. Do you care to explain?
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Grasshopper
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