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It says, GOD “WORKS” IN US, “BOTH” TO “WILL” AND DO OF “HIS” GOOD PLEASURE.
this is only true if you put god’s word in your heart first ;and that is what we have to do to have the results you showed
Gene,
T has it correct as God working in you is the Spirit in is role of Councilor teaching an immersed believer. For God to work in you, you have to choose to live according to the Spirit and so not according to the flesh.
God does not make my choices for me though he does know beforehand what I will choose and he puts the choice there for me to make.
Carmilla……..lets take a real close look at the scripture i posted. What does it say “clearly”?
It says, GOD “WORKS” IN US, “BOTH” TO “WILL” AND DO OF “HIS” GOOD PLEASURE.
Now if God works “in” us to “will” then who i causing our wills to do his good pleasure? Is it not God himself?
Now we also have scripture that says1John 4:4…. “YE ARE OF GOD LITTLE CHILDERN, AND HAVE OVERCOME THEM”: ( by our so-called freewill CHOICES, NO), “BECAUSE GREATER IS HE THAT IS IN YOU THEN HE THAT IS IN THE WORLD”.
Now if he that is “in” you is working “HIS WILL” in us to overcome the world, why do men think it is there will causing them to overcome the world, and steal glory from God the Father. Remember what Jesus said , “all that ever came befor me were liars and thieves”, why were they thieves, because they preach a salvation based on their own so-called freewill choices, even though no such thing as a will that is free even exists. IMO
peace and love toyou and yours………………gene
Hi Gene,
If we have no free wills, then why would God choose for us to sin? In the past, I have followed God and felt God in my life leading me completely, but then I CHOSE to sin. How does that figure if we have no free will? See what I mean. God did not chose for me to sin. I chose sin (temporarily)? Jesus had the choice as well.
Could Jesus have sinned?
God does not make my choices for me though he does know beforehand what I will choose and he puts the choice there for me to make.
Exactly Kerwin.
God knows what choices we will make beforehand. God also knows if we will make it in the end, despite our wrong choices. God can also intervene, imo.
Kerwin and camillia……..what ever “CAUSED” YOU to chose God in the first place was from God, he drawed us to JESUS, WE DID NOT CHOSE HIM ON OUR OWN, JUST AS JESUS SAID HE DID, that is why you desire or will to make those choices. If this were not true, then how could God ever predict what a person would do before their berth and exactly what they would do in their life. The bible is full of these things, like king Cryus who was prophesied by name to be born 200 years before he was born and even more exactly what he would do, God even called him his servant. Lets also look at the prophet JERIMIAH.
Jer 1:5…..Before I formed you in the belly, I knew you, and before you came forth out of the womb i santified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations.
Now lets deal with this scripture please, where does a freewill fit in that scripture, then we can go on to JOHN THE BAPTIST, JESUS, MOSES, even concerning Jacob and Esau, where God said, Jacob have I LOVED and Esau have I hated. How could that be if it is all about our own so-called freewill choices that predict our futures. This is only the tip of the iceburg of scriptures that show the apsolute SOVERINTY OF GOD in all things.
Again i must reinerate i am not saying we do not have liberty to excercise our driven or influenced minds which make up our wills, I Am talking about the will itself and the causeality forming that will. Every thing is based on cause and effect, any scientist will tell you that , i am saying our wills work the same way, all wills are the product of cause and effect. Nothing “FREE” about them.
We did not chose to save ourselves God chose us for salvation, by a revelation process in our minds about who Jesus was and is. It is God himself working in our mindes that draws us to JESUS, JESUS will not and can not reject amyone God the Fathers brings to him. He will in no wise cast them out, because that would be going against the Father who brings us to him.
Mat16:17-18……And Jesus answered and said unto him, blessed are you Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood has not revealed it unto you (not even Jesus because he was flesh and blood also) but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto you, that you are Peter, and upon “THIS ROCK” ( the power of God to get into the mind of a person) I will build the church, and the gates of hell (grave) shall not prevail against it.
Now if the church is built on the reavealed knowledge from God into our minds, how it it a “freewill” choice choses us to go to JESUS the Christ on our own. Also remember Jesus told his apostles they did “NOT CHOSE” him, but he chose them ,and even later said that God the Father gave them to him, so it was God all along who workeding the minds of the apostles and Jesus, to cause them to do the things they did. Where does a so-called will, that is totally “free”, fit in these scriptures plus many other scriptures i have mentioned over and over here for years and years. If God is “SOVERIGN”, over his creation, then he works all thing to conform to “HIS WILL” NOT OUR WILLS or anyone eleses either. IMO
peace and love to you both and yours……………….gene
Carmilla……The reason that we still sin is as Paul said sin dwells in our members, he recon this present state as a wretched state we now live in, because to will is present in our flesh, that is why he said, ” the good that he would (or willed to do) that he did not do, but that evil he would (willed not to do) that he did, and because of that state of existence, he concedered himself a wretched man and he went on to say because to will was present in him. Hardly sounds like a will that was totally “FREE” IF YOU ASK ME, Paul was telling us he was being held captive by his will which was working in his members, he was hardly free to do the good that he wanted to do because of this evil will working in his members, that same thing applies to us also. We are in a battle between our minds will or desire and our fleshly will or desires, hardly a “free” state of existence , but in the end we will win, but not be ause of our will, butbecause of God the Father and who he is and his will being done in and through all of us.IMO
peace and love to you and yours?…………….gene
K
God does not make my choices for me though he does know beforehand what I will choose and he puts the choice there for me to make.
could you get in more details on this ;for I cannot make my understanding grip this ;based on the experience of the history with israel nation and its people
so please explain
gene
Kerwin and camillia……..what ever “CAUSED” YOU to chose God in the first place was from God,
so if I understand you well, then the wickedness in the wicked is also from God right ?for if the good is from God that put it in us ,then the wickedness must be the same :put in by God “?
did I misunderstood you ?
Gene,
Kerwin and camillia……..what ever “CAUSED” YOU to chose God in the first place was from God, he drawed us to JESUS,
True believers are drawn to Jesus by God because they hunger and thirst for righteousness. A fisherman draws a fish to the hook with a lure. A man in the parks draws pigeons to him by spreading bread crumbs.
Kerwin…..But who put that will in them in the first place, God did, nothing free about it, the desire for that food was put their by God. So the fish and the pigions were only following what was all ready preexisting in them placed there by God. Same with us, we are driven by the forces working in our hearts, some desires are stronger then others and those desires drive our wills, our minds are being counciled by those preexisting thoughts all the time , nothing FREE about it. Remember we are not talking about an ordinary influenced Will’S, but a WILL’S THAT IS TOTALLY “FREE”.
YOUR EXAMPLE even further proves the point, why, because all pigions and fish act the same way all the time. Because the same forces causing their actions is working in them all the same way, just a simple matter of cause and effect. The only one that can change it is God himself, and that is also true with human beings, if that were not true then why does this scripture exist.
Ezk 11:19-20….AND I WILL GIVE THEM ONE HEART, AND PUT A NEW SPIRIT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE THE STONY HEART OUT OF THEIR FLESH, AND WILL GIVE THEM A HEART OF FLESH (soft heart). “WHY” ?, THAT THEY MAY WALK IN MY STATUES, AND KEEP MY ORDINANCES AND DO THEM: AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE AND I WILL BE THIER GOD.
KERWIN, God knew all along we would never chose him by our own “captivated” wills, he has to change our hearts and that causes a change in our HEARTS and MINDS which effects our wills, we are delivered from one captivity to another.
One is of the flesh, the other is of God by a NEW SPIRIT, HE PLACES WITHIN US, A so-called freewill has nothing to do with it IMO, no one ever chose God by their own so-called free wills, He chose us and WORKS IN US BOTH TO “WILL” AND DO OF “HIS” GOOD PLEASURE. That is why it say we are CREATED UNTO RIGHTIOUSNESS, A CREATION IS NOT A FREE WILL CHOICE OR WORK, IT IS A CAUSE AND EFFET ACTION, CAUSED BY GOD ALONE. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………..gene
Kerwin and camillia……..what ever “CAUSED” YOU to chose God in the first place was from God, he drawed us to JESUS, WE DID NOT CHOSE HIM ON OUR OWN, JUST AS JESUS SAID HE DID, that is why you desire or will to make those choices. If this were not true, then how could God ever predict what a person would do before their berth and exactly what they would do in their life. The bible is full of these things, like king Cryus who was prophesied by name to be born 200 years before he was born and even more exactly what he would do, God even called him his servant. Lets also look at the prophet JERIMIAH.
Jer 1:5…..Before I formed you in the belly, I knew you, and before you came forth out of the womb i santified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations.
Hi Gene.
So, you believe that because God could foresee the future of people such as king Cyrus or Jeremiah – God must have manipulated their life or will so it would work to plan. Is that what you mean.
Perhaps, God could foresee, and hence foreknew, each one of us before our existence and therefore did not need to manipulate any wills as such.
Humans have a limited foreknowledge. Example, we know that cigarette smoking, methamphetamine, and gluttony can make us sick. Furthermore, we know that if a child wanders onto a busy road, it could get hit by a car – we know that before it happens. Similarly, could you try to imagine God’s foreknowledge which is obviously much greater than ours, and outside of time.
We did not chose to save ourselves God chose us for salvation, by a revelation process in our minds about who Jesus was and is. It is God himself working in our mindes that draws us to JESUS
Agree. But, there must have been some quality there for God to choose some people. That personal quality, such as hungering and thirsting for righteousness was caused by the persons free will. God would have foreknown this?
Also, let’s look at smoking which can kill. Scripture says “If any man destroys the temple of God (the body), God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.” I want to quit smoking, but I need a very strong will to do that?
Gene,
..But who put that will in them in the first place, God did, nothing free about it,
God is our create and he gave us a will. The fact he gave us a will does not free. A man whose will is to hunger and thirst for righteousness is free to exercise it even God created him with a will that hungers and thirsts for righteousness.
Personally, my will is in conflict though I hope at heart I do hunger and thirst for righteousness. Jesus the Anointed of God is the only one that can save me from that conflict. I cannot save myself. Does that mean I do not have free will? You might as well claim that I lack free will because God did not give me gills to breath water without equipment.
I agree that is the closest Scripture comes to say we do not have free will and the bottom line is God created us and our will is not randomly determined.
CAMILLIA……God not only predicts the future he causes it TO HAPPEN. Our futures are not a “spin the wheel Vana” THING, if that were the case God could never be sure of what anyone would do, ever, because to let a person exist in a freewill state means, you have no control of him, much less over him. God could not actually be SOVERGIN if that were true, WE WOULD BE THE ONES WHO WOULD BE SOVERIGN OVER OUR LIVES and futures.
Again you must understand i am not saying we do not have Will’s, that we can FREELY EXCERCISE, i am talking about the Will’s themselves. Our WILL’S themselves are driven by what is working in our hearts and minds and that is what determins our wants and desires, nothing free about it, there is no such thing as a WILL that is FREE, if that were the case them a will would not even exist at all. Because a will had council from past, AND present EXISTING conditions before it ever became a WILL.
THAT IS TRUE EVEN WITH GOD THE FATHER, remenber what it says, “FOR GOD DOES “ALL” THINGS BY THE COUNCIL OF HIS WILL. There are SEVEN SPIRITS OFGOD, and these Spirits (COUNCIL HIS WILL) so you see even Gods Will is not free, it is a COUNCILED WILL, OUR WILLS ALSO FUNCTION THAT WAY. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Shimmer, i still love that name…………..gene
Kerwin……Remember i have said all along, i am not saying we do not have liberty to excercise our influenced and captivated wills, i am talking about what is forming those wills and so the WILL’S themselves are not free at all, but are held captive by what is driving them. That is my point brother.
PS….Not to change the subject ,but you brought out something very interesting a few posts back, about how God heard you prayers before, and speedely answered them in your past. That was what i was hopeing people would bring up in the post i started about Faith, and how God does actually give us the EVIDENCE that he ACTUALLY exists and that should build up our FAITH in HIM. Anyway just thought i would mention it.
peace and love to you and yours…………gene
“what you sow is what you reap”
People who do not believe that we have free will do not believe this scripture.
Instead they should rewrite the scripture to say:
what destiny sows for you, is what you are destined to experience. You have no choice in the matter.
There are many scriptures that would need to be rewritten such as:
“Choose whom you will serve this day”
becomes:
Destiny will choose whom you will serve. You have no choice in this matter.
At the end of the day, some people believe scripture, others refuse to believe it, and still others say they believe it, but don’t really.
Gene,
Our will is captivated by our desires but that means what. I do what I desire means I exercise my free will. When I am captivated by my own evil desire which I desire to be free from I am still exercising my free will.
God created my will but it is my will and I am the one that excises it not God.
I am the one that chooses whether to come out into the light or remain in darkness not God.
God just puts the opportunity in front of me.
T8….at the end of the day, what part of these scriptures you believe or belive not. Read them and get back to me on this OK?
Rom 9:16,…….SO THEN IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, NOR OF HIM THAT RUNNETH, BUT OF GOD THAT SHOWS MERCY.
And while your at it, read these also,
Rom 9:6-23……., And please study it and see how it fits you dogmas of our own uncontrolled, so-called, freewill choices. Make sure you read it all a diejest it all, and then come back and tell us what you find in those scriptures. Let us know how you put that into your views of a will that is totally and completely free.
peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Hi Gene. I think the only times our will is not as free is when we ‘choose’ to do God’s will!
I understand where you are coming from, and fair enough… see your point of view. But for this moment at least, I chose to believe that we have free will, though doing God’s will is something to aim for.
Cammillia,
I believe that is just a different use of the word will. It seems to means desire in that sentence and choice when you are speaking of free will. I cannot be sure as desires and choice are linked.
Kerwin……desires and wills are certainly linked, without a desire there would be no will and in that case the will would be truly free, but no such case exists in man. IMO
Still waiting for T8 TO RESPOND TO THE SCRIPTURES I ASK HIM TO READ AND THIS TIME STUDY THEM. Iwould good for all involved in this descusion to really read the and see how they fit in with free will teachings. In the final end it all boils down to who is the truly SOVERIGN ONE, MAN OR GOD.IMO
peace and love to you and yours………..gene
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