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I CHOOSE not to believe Gene and for good reason.
Why is he trying to convince me I do not have free will. I would need to CHOOSE his belief that we do not have free will.
This is the funniest part of this discussion. He relies on there being free will so we can CHOOSE to believe his view.
lol.
Gene.
We have free will.
If you choose the opposing view, then you demonstrate free will.
If you do not have the ability to freely choose the opposing view, then that means you believe that there is free will.
Either way, we have free will.
Checkmate!
T8…..Again you thinking i am saying we don’t have liberty to express our “INFLUENCED WILL” NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM WHAT I WAS SAYING. I HAVE SAID THAT AROUND A HUNDRED TIMES NOW, WHEN IS THAT GOING TO SINK INTO YOUR HARD HEAD? Tell us what do you do with these scriptures seening you believe a person choses his own salvation by his own so-called free will.
Rom 9:16…..So it is not of him the WILL’S, nor of him that RUNS, but of GOD that shows MERCY.
AND WHAT ABOUT JESUS, saying NO MAN “CAN” come unto me unless the Father draw (Greek drag) him. And again “for whom he foreknew he predestined to be conformed unto the image of his dear son”, now tell us, o wise one, how could God forknow anything if it all depended upon our so-called freewills, nothing could be predestened or prophsied to ever hapen if it is all up to a will that was totaly free “ITSELF”, a real crap shoot, COMMON SENSE 101. Hardly a checkmate, IF YOU ASK ME your not even in the ball park. LOL
peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Gene,
Yes, our free will comes from our desires and our intellect. I am not even sure it is possible or a good idea for a human being to make a decision free from all desires for the sum of the law is love.
The fruit I bear testifies about who I, as a soul and therefor a person, am. You can claim I am programmed because that is true but free will means that I act according to my self to bear those fruit which testify of who I am. To say my will is not free because I am subject to my own self is a contradiction as in order for my will to be free it must be subject to my own self.
Hi Kerwin,
I am replying to an earlier post of yours but I cannot find it, sorry.
No really. Those with RH negative blood are different. They do not have the Rhesus Monkey gene which most of the population do. You cannot CLONE an RHnegative’s blood, whereas you can any other blood type. An RHnegative body rejects an RHpositive fetus from the womb as if it is an alien or some other species. The only other example of this in nature is the horse with the donkey. Those with RHnegative blood feel they do not belong here, and search for the meaning in life and for God to somewhat of an obsession though they love humanity deeply. They have psychic visions and dreams. They have eyes that change color. They have an extra vertebrate. They are finally discovering all these similarities through the Internet. If there were any truth in this, then free will does not go out the window at all, but it would mean some are predestined, I guess you could say, for being different, and that would include spiritually? Just my thoughts Kerwin.. I don’t know.
I disagree with Gene that we do not have free will. It’s the common argument – God does not want pre-programmed muppets. God want’s us to come to Him! We have to do that willingly. We have to love and be loved by God through our own choice, and we have to WANT to obey him.
Camillia,
I have found no evidence such a study was actually done. There seems to be those who claim it is the blood of the gods.
Unless there is a direct correlation between a factor and a behavior associated with that factor it is not evidence to support the lack of free will. Even if there is it may not be evidence for the lack of free will, i.e. all those with the human genotype cannot breath water.
I believe my blood is positive and yet I am a fairly spiritual person.
Kerwin……Simple question, how could God predict any thing ABOUT ANY HUMAN BEING if it is up to that persons WILL THAT IS “FREE”. Can’t you see that there could be no predictible future for anyone ever. Everything would be just a crap shoot, without any determinate results for the future, because at any instant a person could chose to go a different way, so how could God determine anything for us, and we still retain wills that are totaly free. Of all the acriptures i have posted on this subject i do not recall anyone responding to any of them, scripture after scripture and no response, but just people maintaining there own non scriptural responses.
peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Gene,
God is who he is and so knows all thinks. He looks at all things as if they have already occurred. You can do a shadow of the same thing by looking backwards in time and predicted what happened at a certain time. Your knowledge of the past did not prevent those involved from having free will neither does God’s knowledge of the future, present, or past.
I am a soft determinist and so believe God not only knows but is living and active and so manipulates things so that the best outcome possible will happen. In doing so he considers free will as part of the equation.
Kerwin…..If God manipulates things, why would he do that, if he wanted us to freely chose on our own,and more how could he even predict human out comes, like king Cryus, Jeramiah the prophet, John the baptist, Jesus ,how could God foreknow what they would do, if they were to chose on only a freewill basis. God could not forknow a person and what they would do if everything was based on a will that was totally free.
Well, at least you realize there is some predetermination taking place, i agree with you that God does manipulate things for the best outcome possible. I have said all along i was not talking about our freedom to excercise our influenced wills. Forsome reason T8 fails to see that i was speaking of the will “itself” notthe freedom to excercise it.
peace and love to you and yours……………gene
Gene,
God knows what we will choose but he does not make the choice for us. He does put the choice before us(determinism).
This topic is now also the comment section for this blog post.
https://heavennet.net/free-will-means-i-exist/
I will repeat this blog post below for comment.
We cannot doubt of our existence while we doubt. The fact that we doubt proves there is a doubter. “I think therefore I am” as Socrates famously said.
In the Old Testament, YHWH says, I AM. I am is a way to say I exist. We also exist because we have free will and can choose independently. While the Universe provides a pool of options, we choose among options before us everyday.
These choices are the only thing that is real in the sense that all physical reality is a simulation or a broadcast via waves interpreted by electrical signals in the brain. Think of a TV picking up waves using an aerial and creating a picture or image. The only real thing that we own is our will. Our will is central to who we are.
Our destiny is determined by our choices. The saying “what you sow is what you reap” is true. We deserve the outcome of our decisions. If I steal something and go to prison, then that demonstrates that I am responsible for my own decisions. No excuses. We are not animals of pure instinct where we decide to do what feels the best. We may CHOOSE to act like that at times, but we have reason. We can look at the big picture and make decisions based on what is the best thing to do which may include sacrifices. If my decisions are mostly bad, then my reality will be bad too.
My will is free to choose my destiny, so I try to choose good whenever I can. I choose to align my life with God because he is good. Jesus said, “why call me good, no one is good except God”. He also said, “remove this cup from me, but not MY will, but YOUR will”.
Are we willing to sacrifice our own desired choice to live for ourselves and instead live unto God? Trust me when I say this. ‘God knows best’. Put your trust in him alone.
T8……wrong, our future is determind by God the Father, not by our so-called freewill choices. What part of this scripture you fail to understand, ” NO MAN “CAN” COME UNTO ME EXCEPT THE FATHER “DRAW” (Greek DRAG) HIM.”
T8…. YOU rant on, but never answer questions presented, how did God know Jesus would do what he did, or John the baptist, or king Cryus, or Jeramiah the prophet, and on and on it goes, if their wills were totaly Free, how could he foreknow what they would chose to do? I have posted many scriptures here that proves God is in total control of all his creation including man.
T8, Now instead of just ranting on, please answer these questions put to you for a change ok?
peace and love to you and yours……………..gene
Gene,
Even if God determines each of our future it does not mean that there is no free will. God is both intelligent enough and knowledgeable to determine our future without the having the to control us.
God proofs/tests hearts.
Kerwin…….My point is if God forknows about a person before he is even born, and predicts his future and the very things he will do, how does that figure in a freewill? To me that means it predetermined, no freewills governing our outcomes, again i am not saying we do not have liberty to excercise our influenced and captivated wills. The Spirit of God effects our minds and thus guides our outcomes, scripture cleary shows that.
FOR HE (GOD) WORKS IN US “BOTH” TO “WILL” AND DO OF “HIS” GOOD PLEASURE. If we are being kept by God then he is effecting our decisions and out comes to his own will. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Gene,
Foretelling does not take away the will of the participants in a future event than it does in a past event. When God is the one you are speaking of it is more like everything is already do and the future. It is a hard concept for us who exist within time to grasp but God created time or there would not have been a first night and day.
Hebrews 11:3Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)
3 by faith we understand the ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in regard to the things seen not having come out of things appearing;
Kerwin…….My point is if God forknows about a person before he is even born, and predicts his future and the very things he will do, how does that figure in a freewill? To me that means it predetermined, no freewills governing our outcomes, again i am not saying we do not have liberty to excercise our influenced and captivated wills. The Spirit of God effects our minds and thus guides our outcomes, scripture cleary shows that.
FOR HE (GOD) WORKS IN US “BOTH” TO “WILL” AND DO OF “HIS” GOOD PLEASURE. If we are being kept by God then he is effecting our decisions and out comes to his own will. IMO
Gene,
Imo, the choice is ours. We either submit to God and do God’s will, or we chose not to.
Whatever decision we make, God already knows the end. Example, over the past years, I prayed and prayed for one request, and had no results. One day I had had enough and really prayed that I had had enough (breaking point). My prayer was answered that night, remarkably. Regardless, do you think God can change the other persons heart? According to scripture, yes God can. But is it what God wanted? Does God know something I do not? See what I mean?
Once upon a time I prayed and prayed for a country house. (we were renting at the time). Unbelievably, a country house came up for rent, and we got it. In a way, I loved that experience… the views were breathtaking, rolling hills, peace and serenity. But, isolation, and an abusive partner, with no vehicle…. Well, I got what I begged for, and it wasn’t how I imagined in the end (and I couldn’t wait to get back to normal society), but still it built me up and made me stronger.
Point is: some prayer is answered, some is not. God knows what is best for us. But our own will sometimes gets in the way.
Do you agree?
Carmilla……..lets take a real close look at the scripture i posted. What does it say “clearly”?
It says, GOD “WORKS” IN US, “BOTH” TO “WILL” AND DO OF “HIS” GOOD PLEASURE.
Now if God works “in” us to “will” then who i causing our wills to do his good pleasure? Is it not God himself?
Now we also have scripture that says1John 4:4…. “YE ARE OF GOD LITTLE CHILDERN, AND HAVE OVERCOME THEM”: ( by our so-called freewill CHOICES, NO), “BECAUSE GREATER IS HE THAT IS IN YOU THEN HE THAT IS IN THE WORLD”.
Now if he that is “in” you is working “HIS WILL” in us to overcome the world, why do men think it is there will causing them to overcome the world, and steal glory from God the Father. Remember what Jesus said , “all that ever came befor me were liars and thieves”, why were they thieves, because they preach a salvation based on their own so-called freewill choices, even though no such thing as a will that is free even exists. IMO
peace and love toyou and yours………………gene
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