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“how can a person be taken “CAPTIVE” BY THE WILL OF ANOTHER IF HIS WILL is truly “free””
Hi Gene,
It can’t; why, do you believe that one can capture and take captive another’s will?
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God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GODGene, why do you try to convince us there is no free will? Do you think we can freely choose to believe you? lol. It looks like your actions and beliefs are in conflict. Irony x 10. Your view says we cannot affect or change anything. Why do you bother. lol x 10.
Gene,
.your post does not deal with the issue of my post, how can a person will repentence if God give it, and how can a person be taken “CAPTIVE” BY THE WILL OF ANOTHER IF HIS WILL is truly “free”,
I answered what I thought you meant.
2 Timothy AV of the KJV
if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
This seems to be the part you desire to be addressed.
that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil
These words are about free choice and tell us that the righteous man is a captive of the devil because he has been ensnared by the devil. In short we are prisoners of sin because we, mankind, fell for Satan’s trap of our own free will.
if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth
This is harder to understand but we have a type is Scripture. Satan desire to oppress Job but he could not do so until God gave him permission. It is about God’s power. Not one worm would die or a though enter our head unless God allowed it to. God does have veto power over our options as he tests and proves our hearts and he also manipulates us in a righteous way.
In this case it is more about his manipulation as her want each and every human being to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4, and he brings them to times when they can perhaps “grope around for him and find him”, Acts 17:27. In short he attempts to bring them to repentance but he succeeds or fails according to their free choice.
how can a person be taken “CAPTIVE” BY THE WILL OF ANOTHER IF HIS WILL is truly “free”
I already answered this in this post and previously but I want to go into more detail. If you sin in just one way and are completely righteous in every other way you are still a slave to sin as you part of you willingly does the will of Satan. If you are a righteous man then another part of you desires to do the will of God and you are a captive who hopes to put the part that willing does the will of Satan to death.
The last I knew you did not believe Satan was a person so according to that belief Satan has no will and so a person cannot be subject to his will. I answered as I did because I believe Satan is a person.
And we all know that Gene will continue to choose to oppose the idea of free will. lol x 101.
101 represents the amount of pages so far in this pretty much useless topic.
101 also represents the amount of hours being wasted in replying to Gene who continues to freely choose to post here. Time better spent on the Kingdom. e.g., how many souls could be saved with 101 hours of preaching the gospel?
Ed,
It can’t; why, do you believe that one can capture and take captive another’s will?
The words “snare of the devil” in 2 Timothy 2:23-26.
T8,
Gene has flip flopped on the issue as he is not clear what free will means. He has been more of a soft determinist in the past. Now for some reason he is being a hard determinist in he seems to believe we only have an illusion but are truly puppets under the control of either Satan or God, That is strange since previously he has not admitted Satan was a person. Perhaps he will freely choose to clear up these issues so I know where he currently stands.
Kerwin……We did not fall into Satan’s trap by our own free wills, who would want to do that” no we were snared by him, through deception like the whole world is, through lusts of the flesh and lust of the eyes and pride of life, just as Eve was, Satan painted a picture to her that was “good to make one wise” and using her own “captivated” will, through deception, she excercised that captivated will of Her’s and desobeyed God. While she had liberty to do that, the will she used was certainly not free itself, but was held captive by the lust and desires working in Her. The same applies to all mankind who have not been set free. IMO
Let’s not forget as it appears T8 has, that I am not talking about our liberty or freedom to excercise our captivated wills but the will ITSELF.
peace and love to you and yours……………gene
Gene,
Sin has it’s short term rewards. The cost outweighs them but we like Eve discount those costs for one reason or another. That is all part of the snare.
We chose to sin for much the same reason as an addict chooses to start taking the drug of their choice and like the addict we find it a trap. In short we turn away from God and God turns us over to the god of our free choice. We suffer buyers remorse and struggle with the result of our free choice.
My desires are are a constraint on my choice but I still exercise my free will whether I give into my own evil desire or carry out the righteous desires of my mind. There are other limitations to my choices as I cannot choose to travel to the moon without having the means to actually do, nor can I breath water as by the nature of my body I am not designed to. Neither God or Satan make my choices for me.
If I have no free will then I have no reason to repent not have I ever sinned that I need to confess it. A rifle has no free will and even when it murders a person it has committed no sin. You are trying to argue I am the same as a rifle and I am not choosing to believe your argument.
Kerwin……yes but an additive person is far from being free now is he. He is held in captivity by his addiction. Now if scripture says no one is rightiousness no not even one, how doves that fit in with a will that is free to chose what right or wrong and if all chose what is not right then how are they made right, they must be CREATED unto rightiousness, just as scripture says, because they being evil will never chose it. Now if a creation process is need, that alone should tell you that a will can never achieve that, so why?, because our will are held in captivity to our lusts and desires that is why. And if that is true then how are they truly, FREE. Men do evil because they are posed with evil, they do good by the same possession, their wills are not free themselves to freely make choices, they only make choices by what’s influencing them the most working IN them. Nothing free about it.
Common sense should tell you if God wanted us to have free wills forever, he could never know what we would do next, seeing our will would always exist in a free state. How could he ever know if we will always chose what is right, how could scripture say those who are born of God can not sin?. That would be a impossible statement to make. Because being free means you would never know what a person would chose next to do. As I said before it would be just a crap shoot. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………..gene
Gene,
Men do evil because they are posed with evil, they do good by the same possession, their wills are not free themselves to freely make choices, they only make choices by the spirits working IN them
So you agree that human beings make choices. A hard determinist does not.
You believe Free will is a synonym of self control with the exception that according to you a person that is self controlled is not free because they control themselves.
If my desires control me, as in the case of an addict, it is still my will. If my intellect controls my desires then it is still my will. In both cases the control is of me though it is a different part of me.
Since I am exhibiting my will and not the will of someone outside of me then it follows I have free will. Since I have free will I am responsible for my actions even though I of myself am powerless to completely control my own will to do what is sinful.
Kerwin……Please explain what you believe makes up a Will, simple question, what is a will based on? Is Gods WILL a counciled Will or a FREE WILL? Again remember I am not talking about freedom to excercise those will but the wills themselves. Please try to be specific.
peace and love to you and yours………………gene
I was on “Experience Project” the other night and found this. Might interest someone. 🙂
“I Have Rh Negative Blood.
Free Will….may Not Be As Free As We Think. Because of information I have found, explaining several traits associated with people having rh- blood, it has made me begin to question the idea of free will. For example: According to the articles I have read, people with rh- blood are more prone to be searching for more in life concerning spiritual life, alien life. They are more prone to be aware of the paranormal, and so are more interested in the meta physical side of life. We tend to be searchers for answers, but answeres concerning other realms. I always just assumed it was a special curiosity of mine, not a curiosity of mine genetically driven, like a homing pigeon..
And so, i am not so sure what to assume is my choice, and what to assume is part of my nature due to genetics. We breathe, because that is a part of what we do to live.. We think because our brain allows us to, and so I assumed the topics we decide to think about were our choice, but now I am not so sure..
I have believed in a higher power since a very young child, but not in organized religion. I was in kindergarten, when i was butting heads with the nuns over the religious rules. I always felt that the religion we were a part of, had it wrong, and so my search for truth began. My parents were very strong believers in their faith, so I did not get my ideas from listening to them. And so my questioning, and my search has continued. I always assumed it was just something i was very interested in, was just due to my need to understand. Now, i think it is way more than that..This inner drive is actually a part of me, and it is a drive that is always there, always bubbling to the surface,and always directed to allow for the unknown. It allows possibility beyond the so called normal. And I think this inner drive is due to genetics, and not my free choice.”
Soruce: http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Have-Rh-Negative-Blood/2062195
Camillia,
If you have the words “more prone” it leads to the idea that it is more opportune for Satan to tempt them in that area or they are stronger is resisting Satan depending on whether the associated belief is godly or not.
The fact that anyone who posts here CHOOSES to post here means the debate is over.
Gene, please choose one of the following:
Will you CHOOSE to:
- continue the debate because you believe we don’t have free will
- continue the debate even though deep down you know you have lost, but keep the appearance that your point is valid
- move on and count your losses.
What will he CHOOSE to do. What CHOICE among these options will he go for. Regardless of what he chooses, he will have to exercise the ability to choose. The ability to freely choose. If he does not, then these options do not exist.
The entertainment continues.
T8…….Three pieces of pie , one cherry, one apple, one black berry.
To all, which will T8 chose?, and if he makes a choice, why did he make it, was it because he had a “freewill” or because something in him “Caused” him to make “that” paticular choice? Now if something “caused” him to “will” to make that choice, then how is it he believes his will was truly free. Liberty to excercise a influenced will hardly makes the will itself “free”.
Yes T8, the entertainment goes on and you are as big apart of it as anyone else is. IMO
peace and love to you and your T8……………..gene
Hi Gene,
What if T8 uses his “FreeWill” and passes on you trying to captivate his will?
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God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GODGene,
Will means choice, desire, inclination, wish, and the like.
Scripture speaks of conflicting desires within us but that does not mean we have no free will as they are the will.
Yet not my will but yours be done.”
Use the word desire instead of will and it becomes “yet not my desire but your desire be done.”
James 4:1New English Translation (NET Bible)
4 Where do the conflicts and where do the quarrels among you come from? Is it not from this, from your passions that battle inside you?
It is not only evil desires that war against each other but the Spirit wars against evil desires.
I think free will means the ability to choose without outside control. Some allow for outside influence such as being tempted by Satan or his agents.
Then there are those who willpower is weak. It is the weak willpower of a man without Christ that causes him to be subject to sin. The power comes through trough the Holy Spirit from God and the Spirit is given to those that truly make Jesus Christ the Lord of their life by obeying all of his teachings.
Kerwin…..you are saying the same thing I am, our desires are made upby what is influencing us. All of those influences are the Cause and the will is the effect. Nothing free about it, I believe you do understand this, it is what I have been saying all along. Remember I have said over and over here , I was not talking about our liberty to excercise our wants and desires or WILLS, but what makes up those WILLS themselves. EVERTHING is the result of CAUSILITY, cause and effect,the same applies to ALL WILLS. If we are going to chose what is right God must Casuse it, therefore HE says, ” I WILL REMOVE THE HEART OF STONE! AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH! AND WRITE MY LAW IN YOU INWARD PARTS! AND YOU SHALL BE MY PEOPLE AND I WILL BE YOUR GOD”. Nothing is free it is all caused and that includes all that exists. So if we are saved who gets the credit us or our God who causes it?.
Kerwin I think you understand what I have been saying brother.
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
T8…….Three pieces of pie , one cherry, one apple, one black berry.
To all, which will T8 chose?, and if he makes a choice, why did he make it, was it because he had a “freewill” or because something in him “Caused” him to make “that” paticular choice? Now if something “caused” him to “will” to make that choice, then how is it he believes his will was truly free. Liberty to excercise a influenced will hardly makes the will itself “free”.
Yes T8, the entertainment goes on and you are as big apart of it as anyone else is. IMO
I would choose Blackberry because that is my favourite. Next time, I might try Cherry out of curiosity, then apple. Upon tasting all three, successive decisions would be based on what I like the best, but would still include other flavours as I might get a bit sick of eating the same one all the time.
So I choose Blackberry today. How will you deliver it? And is there an upsize option?
Now if something “caused” him to “will” to make that choice, then how is it he believes his will was truly free
lol. We believe we have free will, not random will. We are free to choose among the options. Usually I would freely choose that which suits me, or that I like the best. I am still free to choose otherwise. I am not a robot, or 100% instinctive animal with no ability to reason.
I have free will. If you do not, then maybe I am a better model than you. lol. You might be human 1.0 and me human 2.0 where 2.0 can choose freely.
If we can choose this day whom we serve, then are you not free to choose this day whom you will serve?
Have you ever chosen God among the options. All who love God and know him are his. They have chosen God instead of the world. And we hear our Lord Jesus voice and choose to hear that rather than another. But I guess you have not been involved in all this choosing from your will.
And so for you if a man chooses to reject God, it is not his fault. No that is not what scripture teaches.
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