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EDJ and KERWIN…….PLEASE GO to the site i have posted, for you guys, and read it, IT EXPLAINs more clearly what i have been saying about freewill all along. As well as eternal hell and salvation. It is very accurate IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……………..gene
Kerwin, Edj, Nick, and everone else, why no takers, are you people afraid you might learn some thing, you may have never thought about before. I have said all along the whole comcept of a FREEWILL IS NON BIBICAL, AND IS the very core of human failure, it is this unscriptual idea in peoples mindes that turns them into an “I GOD” and is at the very core of human failure.
Our wills work on cause and effect, nothing free about them at all, never was and never will be ether. ALL OF YOU GO READ THE ARTICLE its located here,….> bible-truths.com and go to freewill article <…… and come back and tell me what you disagree with. See how many scriptures you have to disagree with, to continue to believe in “freewill” doctrines.
peace and love to you and yours. ………….gene
Gene,
I am quite busy and therefore would consider addressing that part of the writers opinion that free will in this thread if you would only cite it. I do feel like wading through it in attempt to see what you are speaking of. I read some of it and he answered some points that I am not sure even those who believe in eternal hellfire think are true. Of course that has nothing to do with the question of this thread.
Can you defend the writers points against cross examination?
If you agree with him then your words are better than his because you understand your reasoning.
If you want us to read it to show that he agrees with you even if we do not then I have no doubt some do agree with you.
Our wills work on cause and effect, nothing free about them at all, never was and never will be ether. ALL OF YOU GO READ THE ARTICLE its located here,….> bible-truths.com and go to freewill article < …… and come back and tell me what you disagree with. See how many scriptures you have to disagree with, to continue to believe in “freewill” doctrines. peace and love to you and yours. ………….gene
Maybe we are not free to choose your view as being truth? Did that ever cross your mind.
You seem to argue as if you could actually make us choose your view freely. lol. The irony.T8……..that is exactly why i thought if you heard it from another source you might give it more consideration. Ray Smith has done an excellent job of using scriptures to prove the point, even though i have posted most of them over the years here, he has put them all together in a single presentation, for all to see. If you could see how damaging the false teaching of freewills is in christainty, and how it trys to rob God of his SOVEREIGNTY, you would no longer believe in it, that is for sure. IMO
T8…..That is the problem with this site now it seems, it not about what true scripturely or not true anymore it’s about as your own mouth said, believe what i say or what someone else says, people here have become more accusatory toward each other, trying to degrade the person themselves, rather then about the truth reguarding whats being talked about.
peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
This is an interesting subject, in general, but at the end of the day, all anyone can take away from it is someone else’s opinion. There are valid points on both sides of the aisle. Both sides have plenty of scripture to back up their theories. I dare say that there is no way either side can ever fully be proven. So what does it all mean, then?
Well..if there is no free will, and the reason we are believers is because we received Grace first in order to have the ability to love God and Christ…That means we didn’t choose God and Christ, but rather they chose us. Do you hear that?! The Creator of the Universe and HIS Christ CHOSE us! We were CHOSEN! Because of being chosen we will have eternal life and be called Sons of The Most High! How beautiful is that, people?!
On the other hand…if we DO have free will and because our hearts were not hardened with evil, we were able to hear the call of our Lord Christ Jesus. We heard His call and His Truth – the Truth of His Father and ours. Because we have it in us to choose right or wrong we pray to God everyday for HIS will to be done and not our own. By staying faithful unto death we will be rewarded with The Kingdom and everlasting life in the presence of our Father, Almighty God!
So in conclusion, it seems that no matter HOW you slice it, we are TRULY blessed, either way.
It looks like a win- win 😉
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Grasshopper
grasshopper
This is an interesting subject, in general, but at the end of the day, all anyone can take away from it is someone else’s opinion. There are valid points on both sides of the aisle. Both sides have plenty of scripture to back up their theories. I dare say that there is no way either side can ever fully be proven. So what does it all mean, then?
thanks for your opinion ,but sorry it is clear that we have a choice as far as the scriptures says we have ,what men tells and dreams is not my concern at all but truth is what matters ,now GOD SAYS THAT HE PLACES BEFORE US LIVE AND DEATH ;AND TELLS US TO CHOSE LIFE;
WHAT DO YOU THINK this means ?
when Jesus tells us that those who believe in him will have life ? is that the ones that not believe in him do not exist ? if they do exist then their is choice is it ? yes
this can go on and on
of course you can now go to the extreme thought of free will and philosophy about it ,but that is not what we are talking about , neither the influences than can make us vote for one or the other side , this will remain our responsibility to weigh out where we stand and were we want to go and be ,
so your statement is wrong totally wrong
Grasshopper……..its all simple , who saved who, did we save ourselves byour so-called freewill choices, or does God save us despite of us, are we sovereign unto ourselves, or is GOD THE ONLY SOVEREIGNTY,.
Grasshopper go to this site “bibletruths.com, and to the “lake of fire- Part 15” and scroll down to installment xv-part A, THE Myth of Free-Will Exposed. Youcan get the whole thing clearly explained there. I have over the years said most of that here already, go check itout andlet me know what you think brother.
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Nothing I wrote stated that I question God’s Sovereignty.
I wrote what I wrote to say that whether or not we believe that there is free will or there’s no free will, that arguing over this subject doesn’t change whether we have salvation through Christ or not.
Unless some of you people are somehow thinking that scripture tells us to base our allegiance and faith in Christ not on His Gospel alone, or His Example, but rather on our own understanding? Does not scripture say?:
Proverbs 3:5-6English Standard Version (ESV)
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and DO NOT LEAN ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths.Until all is reconciled back to God, there is no way we could EVER fully know all the mysteries of God’s plan.
Free will, or not, who are we to say what it should be or what it is? Is our wisdom greater than our Father’s? We should be happy that we are apart of HIS plan, regardless of the method that got us here.You can take THAT to the bank 😉
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Grasshopperhi grasshopper
Proverbs 3:5-6English Standard Version (ESV)
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and DO NOT LEAN ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths.even that scripture you quote make us stand before a good choice or good recommandation to take action but in our hands to decide which way we would like to go , so which will influence us THE TRUST IN GOD’S WORD ,OR OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING ?
I HAVE TAKEN GOD’S TRUST WHAT ABOUT YOU ?
UNDERSTAND THAT AN UNDECIDED VOTE IS GIVEN TO SUPPORT YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING ,SCRIPTURES SAYS
terraricca,
The fact that I used that scripture should show what I believe. It’s unfortunate that you didn’t catch that. Makes me wonder what other things you might not catch, in general.So it seems you are you pressing me on what theory of free will I side on? Why? The truth is that no matter WHAT someone believes about it, it shouldn’t change how we feel about Christ or God’s plan. Should it? If someone you fellowship with has a different view about free will, than you do, should you not fellowship with them anymore? Are they somehow less Christian, less saved, because they have another point of view on this subject than you have? Are you, in any way, suggesting that this subject is something that doctrine should be based on and abided by? Are you, in any way, suggesting that the coming into total agreement within the Church, about this particular subject, is an elemental component of our salvation through Christ?
If for some reason the side you opposed was somehow miraculously confirmed as true, by God Himself, would that change how you feel about God and Christ and in turn make you pull you away from them? Should it be a major factor in our faith in Christ?
It sure isn’t a major factor or a stumbling block, in any way, concerning MY faith in Christ…is it for you???
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Ghi grasshopper
terraricca,
The fact that I used that scripture should show what I believe.if i have to make that assumption that every men that quote a scripture that is what he believe ,THEN I MIGHT AS WELL BELIEVE THE DEVIL,
what you really showing me is that you are very tolerant in many ways , and that i am not that much for who ever says he is a true believer ,i am very tolerant towards all men ,but to those that have a claim of their own i am less and so look more closely into it ,
you are more tolerant towards all those that claim themselves believers and so you feel that you are among friends i can understand this ,but i cannot see that in Christ teachings as a whole ,neither his disciples,
what i wanted to point out is that we are confronted with choices every day of our lives how closer you live in Christ how more difficult it becomes for you are not of this world ,believers are called to holiness,and righteousness within God’s truth
To all that are concerned,
I am still sticking to the teaching that God created man will and all and man chose from that will to go in search of many schemes.
Grasshopper……my statement about the sovernity of God, was not questioning you personal beliefs at all, but giving you my understanding of this subject matter. To me the freewill “issue” has everything to do with the sovernity of GOD IN ALL THINGS, which includes our salvation process. I realize we are not talking about your personal relationship with GOD ,I totally understand the scripture that says , “have you faith, have it unto yourself”. I am not accusing you or no one else here about anything, just talking about the subject matter here brother.
If you would please go to the site i gave you, and read what Ray Smith has said about the subject, i believe you will find it quite enlighting. Freewill is a major factor in Christian theology and has everything to do with the sovernity of God. IMO
I am not on a campaign here to question your or anyone elses personal relationship with GOD, thats between you and him. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Gene, how can he go to that site. It requires that he can freely choose to go to that site. But you don’t believe that is possible. Oh the irony.
Gene,
What you are saying can be disputed. Not saying that I am taking a stance on either side, as I stated in previous posts. In my previous posts, I mentioned how both sides can prove their case. Hence, there is NO WAY, in our present state, that we can ever fully know, without a doubt, the absolute truth regarding this subject.Here is a Scripture/Verse that is showing exactly what I’m talking about:
2 Peter 3:9 (DRA)
9 The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, NOT WILLING that any should perish, but that all should return to penance.
*(in some bibles it translates different, such as: not wishing or not wanting)
*(isn’t the word want a word to describe what will is? When you will something it’s because you want that something, right?)So…this is my point — If God DOESN’T WILL anyone to perish…does that mean that no one will perish?
Some may argue that because it’s God’s WILL that no one will..and God’s WILL will ALWAYS be done, wouldn’t that show that HE WILL make it that no one will perish? (Rather similar to what Christian Universalists believe, btw).BUT, if you believe that there WILL be people that perish, aren’t you then conceding that that actually goes against God’s WILL? THUS, leaning towards the theory that God gives us the free will to choose our fate to some degree? Or to decide, of our own will, what course we will take?
In conclusion, I am saying that this argument can go back and forth….each side putting forth proof texts to prove their cases.
I do not choose to pick a side….because it doesn’t matter to me. To me, all I care about is serving God and Christ. Picking apart and debating scripture dealing with topics that WE choose think about – which are NOT topics that scripture directly tells us we need for salvation, does more harm in the Church than good. (IMO, that is.) Because to me, all this accomplishes is further division amongst The Body; and how is that ever going to make us one – even as Christ and God are one?
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Your SISTER in Christ
Grasshopper 😉HI grasshopper
*(in some bibles it translates different, such as: not wishing or not wanting)
*(isn’t the word want a word to describe what will is? When you will something it’s because you want that something, right?)thanks for letting us know you are our sister ,
what God wants or will is ;it actually shows that we the source of his concern ;can be free in our will to chose to serve him or not to serve him , but we all know that this will not happen right ,but sins God is love and let his only son die so it can be said that all men have received the opportunity to the choice and chose one way or the other ,
so claiming that we have no freewill in doing just that then we are robots right ,then we do not need faith right ? for we all will have it ,then why would Christ die ? useless sacrifice for we all are saved for we cannot act in any other way than the one God has given us right ? as you say
it is because that men has free will that justice and righteousness can be applied if no freewill no justice needed
Very well put, terraricca 🙂
You make an excellent point!As far as I’m concerned…it is whatever it is. In the forums there should be no need to bash one another – to insinuate that some are somehow less Christian or less saved because they have a particular take on the subject that might be different than our own.
At the end, if there are parts of the Body that have opposing views on this matter, will the side that misunderstood be condemned even though they confessed Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and were obedient and lived without sinning? Living righteous, holy, obedient lives, will God not give them their reward because, in their imperfection, they didn’t fathom the truth about us having some freedom in our will or not? Our salvation and reward is based on faith in Christ, ALONE….and not based on faith concerning this subject. Why muddy the waters, ya know? That’s what I say 😉
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Grasshopper
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